dre21

One more call for Visual damage on ATG

58 posts in this topic

After pumping MG and AP and HE from my 232 into a light ATG and he kept firing ( I got pic was less then 10 meters )  I specifically targeted the gunner after him firing his 4th round my gunner died. I unfortunately did a .report on a player that killed me that I thought manned the ATG.  Cause it made no sense how a ATG was still able to fire after 1 clip of 20mm HE 1 clip of AP and 2 belts of MG fire.

This needs to be looked at soon in my opinion way over due.

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To be honest, point-blank fire has always been a little flakey. Come over the allies for a day and try knocking out 232's with 2pdr shot - it works reasonably well at range, but when point-blank you can fire round after round at with 2pdr shot that sometimes has little or no observable effect. I suspect that what you experienced is the same sort of issue.

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here, here. the dudes manning the gun need to scream if shot and the gun needs to xplode if hit with he.

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Well fidd the 232 has a lot of open space ,not that I'm saying there is nothing amiss but when I aim at the head of the gunner and the gunshield with all said above, that gun should go silent. 

U can only bounce off so many rounds of the guys noggin before u say WTF does it take here.

Edited by dre21
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Agreed. 

Shooting even a 20MM AP round into the front shield of an ATG at any range excepting right at the muzzle should penetrate and kill the crew.

 

Imagine a 20MM copper round with a steel core going through a 30MM gunshield a foot from your head and torso... the spall alone would probably wreck your life, and I don't think you'd be able to load and operate a gun with one hand torn in half, either. 

Double walled ATG shields are another matter... but still should be pretty useless against a 75MM AP round at 100M.

I had to shoot a 6 pounder four times directly at the gunner at that distance to make him stop firing last night in a Stug. Why?

 

 

Edited by vasduten1

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4 hours ago, dre21 said:

Well fidd the 232 has a lot of open space ,not that I'm saying there is nothing amiss but when I aim at the head of the gunner and the gunshield with all said above, that gun should go silent. 

U can only bounce off so many rounds of the guys noggin before u say WTF does it take here.

I'd be willing to bet you couldn't swing a cat inside a 232. The problem is - I believe - that the spall calculations in game are related to the mass of armour dislodged by the sheck, rather than the detritus of bits of gear-box, turret mechanism, engine and what-not that would fly around at high speed once a 2pdr HV shot has gone through it from stem to stern. In other words, the spall generation model doesn't model all this secondary shrapnel, but only such spall is generated by the armour itself. In the case of the 232  the thin armour in combination with HV solid AP produces relatively little spall. It's my personal contention that they're crewed by legless midgets with vestigial arms, further reducing the odds of a kill-shot! ;)

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It may be so but bouncing of rounds of a Helmet and shooting a 232 are two different items here.

Like I said , there might be something going on with the 232 but I sit in them and when my gunner gets hit , I don't shoot anymore cause I can't he is dead , I can expect the same when I blow the ATG gunners head of with everything that my 232 has available and not expect him to reload time after time and keep shooting . In that time a sapper can easily make it around me and sap me all just because I can't swing my gun away from the ATG cause how do I know he is actually dead , I don't . 

And I'm not saying this here hey CRS fix this for Axis ,NO this needs to be looked at period . There needs to be an obvious sign that the ATG is out of commission. 

I bet ( I know I lost a few Panzer ) many players have shot at ATGs and thought yup he should be dead and ohhh s#!+ there is another ET coming let's get turned and get into pos just to have exactly that ATG open up fire again ( don't want to know how many rage quit cause of it )

Not asking for much here. A simple explosion (rounds cook off) on the ATG would do, indicating the gunner died. 

The gunner is the threat after all don't you agree?

Edited by dre21

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Sometimes i see the wheel fall off . Seeing as how making the gunner fall off would be a royal pain maybe just make the wheel fall off when the gunner is dead ?

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On ‎11‎/‎16‎/‎2017 at 0:29 PM, vasduten1 said:

 

I had to shoot a 6 pounder four times directly at the gunner at that distance to make him stop firing last night in a Stug. Why?

 

 

HE..  use HE.  I have the same issue with the M10 APHE ammo vrs Paks. Using HE I often do not require a direct hit and even when I do get a hit they are more times than naught DRT. 

 

Also there is a visual indication the ATG is dead for the 57mm, Pak38 and heavier ATGs.  There is a slight bounce it does when you kill the gun.  However I would like to see the ATG get blown over, visually lose a wheel, gun barrel slump or something that can visually verify.  I think the barrel slump will also help with death trigger.. the worst being the bofors. It still exists to an extent.

 

EDIT: IIRC the problem with close in hits is that the round travels too fast for the clients packets to register the hit. The rounds have already passed by the time the packets are received resulting in dubious close in results of a kill.  Something like that, I am sure more tech savvy ppl could explain it in greater detail and accuracy.

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3 hours ago, victorys said:

Sometimes i see the wheel fall off . Seeing as how making the gunner fall off would be a royal pain maybe just make the wheel fall off when the gunner is dead ?

Hmm.. I like the idea of the crew falling over with rag doll. 

There was a time when the rag doll effect entered where the concussive effect would toss infantry in the air and on the first day it entered I remember being outside our AB watching a stuka dive bomb the AB and a infantry guy got tossed on top of the AB wall doing the electric boogaloo. Was friggen hysterical.  I think the effect was dropped because it was considered too graphic.. but you could toss your grenade and stand on it and it would blow you a few feet in the air.. enough to land you on the top of the tents.

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On ‎17‎/‎11‎/‎2017 at 1:04 PM, dre21 said:

It may be so but bouncing of rounds of a Helmet and shooting a 232 are two different items here.

Like I said , there might be something going on with the 232 but I sit in them and when my gunner gets hit , I don't shoot anymore cause I can't he is dead , I can expect the same when I blow the ATG gunners head of with everything that my 232 has available and not expect him to reload time after time and keep shooting . In that time a sapper can easily make it around me and sap me all just because I can't swing my gun away from the ATG cause how do I know he is actually dead , I don't . 

And I'm not saying this here hey CRS fix this for Axis ,NO this needs to be looked at period . There needs to be an obvious sign that the ATG is out of commission. 

I bet ( I know I lost a few Panzer ) many players have shot at ATGs and thought yup he should be dead and ohhh s#!+ there is another ET coming let's get turned and get into pos just to have exactly that ATG open up fire again ( don't want to know how many rage quit cause of it )

Not asking for much here. A simple explosion (rounds cook off) on the ATG would do, indicating the gunner died. 

The gunner is the threat after all don't you agree?

Please accept my apologies if you inferred from my post that I thought your suggestion a partisan one, that was not my intention at all, and I do think your request is perfectly reasonable, and "side-blind" as it were. I couldn't help commenting on the 232 because they've really given me the horrors over the years, they're rather like shooting zombies I imagine, you pump round after round in the sods and they just keep coming! I'm also quite sure that there must be similar issues for the axis with other lightly armoured A/C's?

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Further to the ATG damage-model, I think it's worth remembering that even 6pdr ATG's were often served by 4-6 men, and that it's actually quite difficult to knock out the gun permamently, as crews would form and reform around undamaged guns to return fire. Read accounts of the 6pdr defense of Kidney Ridge during the Second Battle of Alamein. Account of 6pdrs in heavy combat  So the "two crew" we typically have in game is representative of rather more men, and that even one man can operate similar ATG's, be they Pak38's, 2pdrs and so forth. I would suggest that the M5, 17pdr and 88 could not be operated with any effectiveness, by a single man by virtue of the weight of the shecks.

Perhaps the way forward would be for "kills" on the crew to increase reload times, and decrease movement-speed when pushed until the last man is killed, at which point the gun is inoperable. If in the intervening period a hit is made with sufficient joules to de-gun the ATG or de-wheel it, then it might reasonably be supposed to be inoperable. So, a weapon such an 88, M5 or 17pdr, with fairly extensive crews, would likely suffer gradual loss of function as it lost crew, but wouldn't be rendered entirely inoperable until most or all of the crew were dead. On the other hand, as this is, in effect, what already happens, excepting the rate of fire remains the same - it may not be worth recoding.

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U are forgetting one thing , Crews did also hightail and abandon their weapons and not reload the gun when they were being fired upon.

We can argue all day about what and when. Just like its silly that 1 rifle takes out an 88 when an 88 crew was like 10 guys and would not even have the chance to do so . But in game we have to just roll with it.

So a simple middle ground . We accept that we only have 2 crew per ATG in game and there needs to be an indication on that equipment that it is destroyed .

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10 hours ago, dre21 said:

U are forgetting one thing , Crews did also hightail and abandon their weapons and not reload the gun when they were being fired upon.

We can argue all day about what and when. Just like its silly that 1 rifle takes out an 88 when an 88 crew was like 10 guys and would not even have the chance to do so . But in game we have to just roll with it.

So a simple middle ground . We accept that we only have 2 crew per ATG in game and there needs to be an indication on that equipment that it is destroyed .

Perhaps I didn't make myself clear, I am suggesting that the nominal crew for each gun - say 10 for a Flak36, be one the figure used calculating the reload and movement speeds. So, if one killed a crewman of a gun with 2 crew, then the ROF would dimish by 50%. If you kill one member of a ten-crew weapon, it would diminish by 10%, and 10% thereafter for each hit. I agree that the crew might run away, however as such considerations are not applied to the any other weapon, I do not see why ATG's should be a special case. If the loss of reload speed was non-linear, ie taking the Flak 36 as an example, the first crewman dead reduces ROF by 10%, the next one by an additional 15%, the next by an additional 20% (by now 45% reduction) and so forth, then this might reasonably simulate the effect on a gun-crew losing members.....

Edited by fidd

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Fidd that's all great it still doesn't explain how a ATG still gets 4 rounds of when you pump 2 belts of MG and one load out each of AP and HE into the gun shield and the gunners head .

Even by your calculations the gun would have gone silent after the 1st belt of MG , not to mention the AP rounds would made the ATG look like swiss cheese and the HE rounds well a hung of metal would  have been left that might resemble the hint on an ATG .

And if it is the death trigger phenomenon. Well it should work with the Hull MG or any other gun that is belt fed or has a clip where continious fire would be able but definetly not with guns that need to be reloaded after every round that is spent. 

This issue has been around since 2001 , you can't tell me that CRS is not capable of coding a simple explosion onto the ATG simulating you have destroyed it ,hence you are free to look at new targets?

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Honestly I can't see the point of this. If he/s still there, he's still alive, if he's de-spawned he was dead.

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3 hours ago, fidd said:

Honestly I can't see the point of this. If he/s still there, he's still alive, if he's de-spawned he was dead.

Oh u are so wrong on that. 

U don't want to know how many ATG I have hit with HE  ,just to about to move to a new target and he opens up again .

Or nail a ATG with HE dead on and he turns deploys and gets a shot off . And all that goes through ur head is WTF how is that even possible.

How often have I shot the gunner of a AAA just to have him turn and open up on me , or shoot the gunner u see the bullet hit him he deploys and opens up a barrage . 

Sorry happens way to often and like I said I don't want to know how many have quit, rage quit or just said this is plain F-en stupid.  

There is really nothing more annoying in game then this in my eyes.

Inf falls over when killed.

Tanks blow up or catch fire.

Planes break apart or crash.

Trucks Tires come off or blow up.

Boats catch fire and sink.

ATG and AAA let's just keep on guessing it's fine by us.

Been with the game since 2001 and it still has not been addressed.  

This has been an issue and will be an issue till fixed. 

You don't think this is my 1st post about it do you. Just because my post count is low does not mean I don't have valid points nor not care abut the game. And with the new CRS crew it's a good place to bring it up again. 

There was just a point with the old crew that this ,did not need to be addressed anymore . So new Crew new attempt. 

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6 hours ago, fidd said:

Honestly I can't see the point of this. If he/s still there, he's still alive, if he's de-spawned he was dead.

Wow, you'e so wrong on this its unreal:huh:

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Delete the crewman upon death and just spawn a ragdoll. Or just delete the crewman and have a red mist. It doesn't need to be pretty.

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