brady

1.36 and Tier 4

25 posts in this topic

After reading a recent post on another thread it occurred to me that Tier 3, my least favorite Tier of them all might be something were stuck in for a very long time indeed if the map slows down considerably, as one would think it likely will as the fighting will be more like WWl as apposed two WW2 with the removal of the Brigade system and the death of maneuver warfare.

Don't get me wrong about that, I think it will likely be best for player retention, a more stable front will be btr for morale, and we all know folks log when the going gets tough, sad as that is.

My thinking is that what with tier 3 having so much 44/45 kit in it, it might be more palatable if Tier 3 was not chock full of Tigers 24/7 and other crazy late war Kit like the 76 Sherman, and just felt more like 43.

Perhaps Tier three could have some Sherman's added to the British pool, they used more US armor than Indigenous armor anyway..

Reduce Tiger Numbers in Tier three (2 per Town let say) and remove the Sherman 76 entirely, keep the M10 (possibly my least favorite allied tank), no 17 pounder either.

Put the grease gun in Tier 4.

Tier 4 would see the Sherman 76 limited to the tiger level, but really adding a few variants for their 4 would help I think like the Firefly and the Achalis, But the Panther would be required I think at this point as possibly in the short term the only new build required.

This is just a very rough sketch, I think u see weir I am going with this. I know Tier 0 and their 1 can get a bit stale but imo their best balanced of the tiers, tier 2 is, ok'ish, but their three needs some love imo, but I like to think, again, that the solution to tier three is really a tier 4 and with that it might be possible to create a beter balanced tier.

...............

O- as an aside I would in tier 2 be open to the idea of having a very limited number of tigers added to say, the extra supply Brigades, something akin to the matty levels we see now.

Opinions?

 

 

 

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I think once some of the new ammo types and new vehicles enter the game, it might survive moving some of the equipment to their respective timeline AS long as they are able to adjust the tier progression so we actually get to play with better equipment. I disagree with dropping the 17pdr. It is the BEFs only long range gun with some lethality.  I really, really do not want to go back to fighting Tigers with the M10s exclusively, we have done that and it was a complete disaster.  I could do a very limited T2 Tiger... however you said T2 having 2 Tiger per town.. and then in T3 putting the Tiger in similar numbers to the Matty - well that is 2.  So tiger numbers would not change, the BEF would still have CH3s fighting Tigers in T3.. the CH7 is a T4 tank.   So to put it all into perspective, what is the difference between what we have now and this senerio?

 

The French stays the same for T2 and 3. The BEF T2 stays the same through T3 and the Tiger numbers stay the same from T2. 

What does change - The Tiger enters in T2, the BEF loses the 17pdr and you add a Sherman 75 to the BEF which is arguably better than the CH3 but you have to split the difference.  In T-3 the BEF does not get to RDP the CH7, its a T4 tank.  The French do not get to RDP the S76. The BEF and French lose their second SMG, the sten and grease gun.

TBH, I understand the desire to make things more historically correct and I am not opposed to some of it... however the scenario you are proposing seems more like a drawn out T2.

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57 minutes ago, stankyus said:

I think once some of the new ammo types and new vehicles enter the game, it might survive moving some of the equipment to their respective timeline AS long as they are able to adjust the tier progression so we actually get to play with better equipment. I disagree with dropping the 17pdr. It is the BEFs only long range gun with some lethality.  I really, really do not want to go back to fighting Tigers with the M10s exclusively, we have done that and it was a complete disaster.  I could do a very limited T2 Tiger... however you said T2 having 2 Tiger per town.. and then in T3 putting the Tiger in similar numbers to the Matty - well that is 2.  So tiger numbers would not change, the BEF would still have CH3s fighting Tigers in T3.. the CH7 is a T4 tank.   So to put it all into perspective, what is the difference between what we have now and this senerio?

 

The French stays the same for T2 and 3. The BEF T2 stays the same through T3 and the Tiger numbers stay the same from T2. 

What does change - The Tiger enters in T2, the BEF loses the 17pdr and you add a Sherman 75 to the BEF which is arguably better than the CH3 but you have to split the difference.  In T-3 the BEF does not get to RDP the CH7, its a T4 tank.  The French do not get to RDP the S76. The BEF and French lose their second SMG, the sten and grease gun.

TBH, I understand the desire to make things more historically correct and I am not opposed to some of it... however the scenario you are proposing seems more like a drawn out T2.

Good points.

 

Oh, by the way... you camped our FMS like a true gentleman last night.

You stayed about 4-500M away the whole time and never lowered yourself to getting behind it.

You didn't really help that truck that tried to hot drop a bazooka though... but then, WTH was that mission about?

"Hey, grab a zook and hop on! We're going to go camp the FMS LOL11eleven!"

 

Drives over to it at top speed and slams on the brakes 5M from it, EI zook hops off and is immediately executed. I shot the truck with my ATG, and I'm still scratching my head over it lol.

 

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2 hours ago, stankyus said:

I think once some of the new ammo types and new vehicles enter the game, it might survive moving some of the equipment to their respective timeline AS long as they are able to adjust the tier progression so we actually get to play with better equipment. I disagree with dropping the 17pdr. It is the BEFs only long range gun with some lethality.  I really, really do not want to go back to fighting Tigers with the M10s exclusively, we have done that and it was a complete disaster.  I could do a very limited T2 Tiger... however you said T2 having 2 Tiger per town.. and then in T3 putting the Tiger in similar numbers to the Matty - well that is 2.  So tiger numbers would not change, the BEF would still have CH3s fighting Tigers in T3.. the CH7 is a T4 tank.   So to put it all into perspective, what is the difference between what we have now and this senerio?

 

The French stays the same for T2 and 3. The BEF T2 stays the same through T3 and the Tiger numbers stay the same from T2. 

What does change - The Tiger enters in T2, the BEF loses the 17pdr and you add a Sherman 75 to the BEF which is arguably better than the CH3 but you have to split the difference.  In T-3 the BEF does not get to RDP the CH7, its a T4 tank.  The French do not get to RDP the S76. The BEF and French lose their second SMG, the sten and grease gun.

TBH, I understand the desire to make things more historically correct and I am not opposed to some of it... however the scenario you are proposing seems more like a drawn out T2.

- I might of jumbled it up a bit, Tigers:

Tier 2: Limited to Reserve supply in small numbers (reserve supply being the Brigade like extra supply they are talking about putting in game to give HC something to do, so they would not be at every town and thus very limited.

Tier Three: Two per town, and if the M10's are not enough then add the S76 at the same rate as a stop gap if must, given how many more M10's their would be I cant imagine it would be that big an issue but perhaps your right.

..........

17 pounder my thinking is based on what I have seen or read on its ammo tweak which will be pretty uber after the ammo audit comes out insomuch as it will preform as it really did and not as it does at present which is pretty nerfed.

6 pounders kill Tigers, granted its not easy but they do.

If I am gona advocate limited Tigers I need to advocate a Limited lethality that exists primarily to counter them. Tigers should be UBER, but not Ubiquitous, fighting them all the time is tedious, its sorta like swearing, u do it to much it loses its shock value. I mean how many times  can U say [censored] TIGER's! and not get board with it?:)

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, vasduten1 said:

Good points.

 

Oh, by the way... you camped our FMS like a true gentleman last night.

You stayed about 4-500M away the whole time and never lowered yourself to getting behind it.

You didn't really help that truck that tried to hot drop a bazooka though... but then, WTH was that mission about?

"Hey, grab a zook and hop on! We're going to go camp the FMS LOL11eleven!"

 

Drives over to it at top speed and slams on the brakes 5M from it, EI zook hops off and is immediately executed. I shot the truck with my ATG, and I'm still scratching my head over it lol.

 

I like to camp from the front, its gives them hope, and I get more kills that way:)

idk about that truck, more green tag crazeyness I think, some lesions are hard learned.

 

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1 hour ago, vasduten1 said:

Good points.

 

Oh, by the way... you camped our FMS like a true gentleman last night.

You stayed about 4-500M away the whole time and never lowered yourself to getting behind it.

You didn't really help that truck that tried to hot drop a bazooka though... but then, WTH was that mission about?

"Hey, grab a zook and hop on! We're going to go camp the FMS LOL11eleven!"

 

Drives over to it at top speed and slams on the brakes 5M from it, EI zook hops off and is immediately executed. I shot the truck with my ATG, and I'm still scratching my head over it lol.

 

Yah rgr that, ty for the compliment. End of map, Axis where putting up a good fight did not see a need to camp any EFMS.  I call it cutting, camping would be killing you as you spawn in.  I think if the town was going down fast I might have done the camping thing to try and help get control, however we where libbing up. 

 

And lol the truck, had no idea it was a RPAT, I thought they where hot dropping for sap, I was unable to help them as they where in direct line with the FMS.

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2 hours ago, stankyus said:

What does change - The Tiger enters in T2, the BEF loses the 17pdr and you add a Sherman 75 to the BEF which is arguably better than the CH3 but you have to split the difference.  In T-3 the BEF does not get to RDP the CH7, its a T4 tank.  The French do not get to RDP the S76. The BEF and French lose their second SMG, the sten and grease gun.

I'd send the brits some M10's, they were getting those, and those are better able to deal with tigers than the 75mm.
Not sure the 75mm proves much more effective in practice than the 6pdr?
Just my thinking.

With the the change to a hybrid system, i had an idea, perhaps unpopular but seemed neat?
In T2 the tiger 1's are a brigade only item, say 2 per brigade?
1. It makes them rare and kind fo special
2. It makes you worry about where the brigades are going, what fight they might join in.

T3 the garrisons acquire an organic tiger, like 1 per town, 2 per something like antwerp?

later when mode models are in i was picturing T2 starting with us/brit heavy in the M3 grant/lee and light in the M4A2's, then tier 3 sliding the other direction

S76/Firefly, achilles etc would all go on to make a happy deadly T4 with fairies godlings and dead union generals fighting giant kitties

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1 hour ago, merlin51 said:

I'd send the brits some M10's, they were getting those, and those are better able to deal with tigers than the 75mm.
Not sure the 75mm proves much more effective in practice than the 6pdr?
Just my thinking.

With the the change to a hybrid system, i had an idea, perhaps unpopular but seemed neat?
In T2 the tiger 1's are a brigade only item, say 2 per brigade?
1. It makes them rare and kind fo special
2. It makes you worry about where the brigades are going, what fight they might join in.

T3 the garrisons acquire an organic tiger, like 1 per town, 2 per something like antwerp?

later when mode models are in i was picturing T2 starting with us/brit heavy in the M3 grant/lee and light in the M4A2's, then tier 3 sliding the other direction

S76/Firefly, achilles etc would all go on to make a happy deadly T4 with fairies godlings and dead union generals fighting giant kitties

The Sherman in this game is a better tank and I think what you need to examine is that the Sherman has a considerable better HE round - in light of the new HE, its faster though less armored and more maneuverable... plus the post penetration effects tend to be more generous.  However I do like the 6pdrs ability to cut through where the 75 struggles.  So in aggregate its a more well rounded AFV... mb it should be a Canadian RAM donno. OH and before I forget the 75mm will have access to different types of Ammo, more so than the 6pdr.  I don't think the 6pdrs had HEAT for instance.

The M10 is a good choice to also add and the BEF does lack a TD... and TBH, if Tigers do enter into T2 its going to be rather essential... the CH3 already gets pwned by the StugG.. adding a Tiger to the mix and its pure slaughter.  IIRC the CH3 has a negative KD vrs the 4G historically.

My only reservations about ALL of this is simply that by T2 - the divide between the allied forces is going to be rather muddied even more.  So if the BEF does get a S75 I personally rather it be the RAM variant and the M10 or just M10s. 

As for Garrisons - IMHO NONE should have top tier tanks.  I don't think that the garrison should EVER outmatch the Brigade.  I would even go so far as to say in T-0 garrisons are 38ts, 2cs, and 232s.. H39s, R35s and Pans, A13s and Vickers. 

T-1 they have the StugBs, 3Fs and 4Ds, S35s and Chars, Matty.

T2 - I think mb a small amount of 4Gs, Ch3s/Cru3s and S75s with primarily 3Hs, Stus and Matty/Cru2s/DAC. Simply because the divide between T-1 and T-2 firepower and armor is a giant step.

T-3 S75s, M10s, CH3s/Cru3s, 4Gs and StugGs. 

All just a handful.. ZERO Tigers, Zero CH7s and Zero S76s after that, up and until we get our T4 equipment.  What I do not want to happen is that the firepower of a garrison outmatches the Brigade system or that the garrison is specifically used to massively overstock top tiered AFVs into the Brigades. This will help limit rare supply and keep it rare.

And yes the list is not exactly complete - for the up and coming PzJr1, or the current W15.. I was just outlining the idea and my thoughts.

 

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My Assumption has been from the get go that the Garrison for each town would probably be something akin to what an infantry brigade looks like today I haven’t seen anything that said that I just sort of assumed it would be the case.

???

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I think that much of the solution to this would be to shake up the Armour brigades and have different types. Heavy armour brigades for example.  This would definitely help avoid WWI style stagnant warfare.

I definitely think that we should have town garrison supply in addition to moveable brigades, but the movement of brigades should be tweaked and move timers should be more realistic and based on type and distance. I.e. light armour faster than heavy armour... mechanized inf faster than regular inf etc. etc.

So, you would have fewer Tigers overall (for example) ... but you could concentrate them... and, with realistic move timers, you can't teleport them all over the map... it would be a real strategic decision. 

Finally, key to this would be no visibility of brigade deployments behind the front line... so you would have some real manoeuvre warfare without the soft caps.

Edit: my opinion on garrison supply is that is should be more like a depot supply with no tanks at all... perhaps just armoured cars. After all, you should be penalized for making strategic errors... but you should also be able to put up a fight if there is no HC on. I think we would also need to ramp up efforts to have reserve HCs or even a fallback type arrangement where highest ranking guy online gets HC powers.

Edited by Di11on

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I t will be interesting to see how this all pans out, I get they haven't fully fleshed out their plans as yet and what we have seen thus far with regard to those plans is that the Movable extra supply will be something short of what we now see and that they will likely be brigade esq. but they hinted at them being independent (not tied to a div.) and that they would be extra supply, something less than what a brigade has now, all very vague but its early days.

I also got the impression that they were few in numbers, the extra supply, so putting things like Tigers in them Would be historically representative of a "EFFORT" being put forth by HC to PUSH in a certain spot, likewise for the Allies have the S76 in their extra Supply would do the same.

 

 

 

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6 hours ago, Di11on said:

I think that much of the solution to this would be to shake up the Armour brigades and have different types. Heavy armour brigades for example.  This would definitely help avoid WWI style stagnant warfare.

I definitely think that we should have town garrison supply in addition to moveable brigades, but the movement of brigades should be tweaked and move timers should be more realistic and based on type and distance. I.e. light armour faster than heavy armour... mechanized inf faster than regular inf etc. etc.

So, you would have fewer Tigers overall (for example) ... but you could concentrate them... and, with realistic move timers, you can't teleport them all over the map... it would be a real strategic decision. 

Finally, key to this would be no visibility of brigade deployments behind the front line... so you would have some real manoeuvre warfare without the soft caps.

Edit: my opinion on garrison supply is that is should be more like a depot supply with no tanks at all... perhaps just armoured cars. After all, you should be penalized for making strategic errors... but you should also be able to put up a fight if there is no HC on. I think we would also need to ramp up efforts to have reserve HCs or even a fallback type arrangement where highest ranking guy online gets HC powers.

I think garrisons should have tanks etc.. Not sure what the numbers are but Brady mentioned similar to the infantry brigades - I'm thinking that's probably a good tank supply. However I do stick to my opinion that there should be NO top tiered AFVs in any garrison.  I think Tanks and ATGs etc should be in the garrison simply because I would love for overstocking to be what was a awesome attribute of the old days that was easy to do with effort without the overpowering effects multiplied by having the ability to overstock all the top tiered AFVs. That's IMO where the overstocking issue resided in particular with the Matildas, and Tigers when they entered at 5 per AB.  The Matties where at 3 per AB in T0 and 5 per AB in T1.  I played Axis prior too and when we had only one RDP.. Stus, Cru2s, and PzHs along with the 5 Matties and the overstocking of the Matties was insane. IN one town I was defending which was quite intense the majority of the allied tanks where Matties where I sapped 8 Matties in two missions inside our town... Then later we had overstocked 48 PzHs in one town alone which also had 99x 232s in it.  The point being is that if we can overstock we need to have the ability to overstock only supply that is a tier behind the top tier so we don't get into the bad parts of overstocking.  As an allied player I do not want to be defending against 60 Tigers and as an Axis player I don't think would want to be jumped by a hoard of 60 S76s.  Matties, B1s, S76s, and Tigers where all pretty rare in the scheme of things too boot, they should remain rare in teirs they are relevant... Garissons should be stop gaps and support, not mini-factories of the uber weapons.

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I would like to think that going forward with these new "extra" supply units that HC can mov,e that over stocking would remain a thing of the past, or at least that some effort would be made to make it a very unattractive thing to pull off.

 

Edited by brady

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1 hour ago, brady said:

 

I would like to think that going forward with these new "extra" supply units that HC can mov,e that over stocking would remain a thing of the past, or at least that some effort would be made to make it a very unattractive thing to pull off.

 

Who knows but I know I will be busy overstocking personally.  ATM with brigade warp overstock was a complete waist of time.. however with garrisons it wont be a waist of time because the supply will be static.

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2 hours ago, stankyus said:

Who knows but I know I will be busy overstocking personally.  ATM with brigade warp overstock was a complete waist of time.. however with garrisons it wont be a waist of time because the supply will be static.

 Not all supply will be static, it’s a hybrid system, so some supply will be movable by high command what form that will take has yet to be determined, and really garrisons are just a guess on my part.

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Most interesting thread. Personally, I'd like to see the content of each brigade set during intermission, so, for example, there would be some British Brigades operating Churchills, others with Shermans, and so on*. Conversely, that some German Brigades had Tigers, most not, some be well augmented with 251's, and support weapons and so on. So each HC would have the ability, to set the content of each Brigade before the campaign starts, for each of the tiers. Such settings would carry on from one Brigade to the next unless modified. The advantage of this would be to vary the character of battles, with HC's striving to face nme Brigades with those capable of dealing with the TOE of nme Brigades in that area. It would also mean that in certain battles lower tiered kit would remain competitive, however, one might not know until the nme come over the hill!

The scheme for this that I have in mind is simply to assign every unit a point score, for its survivability and lethality, so where a rifleman might be 1 point, a Tiger might be 100 points, and a Sherman perhaps 30 in a particular tier. As each tier progresses to the next, the points value of units may change as they become less competitive, so that HC's may elect for reasonably strong all purpose units, or, to create some smaller Brigades with more capable units, perhaps more dedicated to a particular purpose or area. What I mean by this, is that HC's might well put Brigades containing better armour and long-ranged weapons in areas of the map where hills allow or require longer-ranged battles, and place more balanced units where the ground is flatter and engagement ranges typically shorter.

I agree that the Panther should be modelled, perhaps alongside the Firefly, however, I think that both of these should be tier 4-5, with the British M10 "Wolverine?" in tier 3-4 as a foil to the Tiger.  That said, overall Tiger numbers should be very low, the exception rather than the rule, relative to Panthers, which were far more prevalent - and more potent in many respects.

*And no bloody Garands or Grease-guns please!

Edited by fidd

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Ya the panther will be a chalange to foil from a play balance perspective, the firefly is an obvious counter as is the Achilles and likely the s76 and possibly a Jackson 

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1 hour ago, brady said:

Ya the panther will be a chalange to foil from a play balance perspective, the firefly is an obvious counter as is the Achilles and likely the s76 and possibly a Jackson 

T4 is not in game yet of course but, in T4 your have the 76mm shermans (they move to T4 and stay there), the brit firefly's with 17pdr, and the converted M10 Achilles with the 17pdr. Add to that the 90mm M36 Sherman based TD replacing a portion of the US M10's, and figure in that the US moving from the M10 to the M18 tank destroyers in T3 will still have some M18's left in T4, which while made of recycled sardine cans cant not be matched for flanking speed.

Id say that should play very interesting and fun VS an axis force fielding the PZ V Panther as it's now MBT with the rare Tiger II playing the role of mobile fortress, and their remaining tiger I's from T2  filling in a bit for midrange standoff.  Add that they will have a jagdpanzer TD with the same gun as the panther as well as other goodies, and beware the little man pushing the PAK43.

And depending on how the entire supply thing plays out, perhaps we may have some units relegated to the yesteryear bargain basement kit
where suddenly you have this large fight of PZii and PZ38t and r35 and vickers etc cause there wasnt anything better in the area.

 

 

BTW on the panther, Its all about the flank,
the flank,
the flank,
no frontal

Its all about that flank, about that flank
No frontals

:) 
 

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2 hours ago, merlin51 said:

T4 is not in game yet of course but, in T4 your have the 76mm shermans (they move to T4 and stay there), the brit firefly's with 17pdr, and the converted M10 Achilles with the 17pdr. Add to that the 90mm M36 Sherman based TD replacing a portion of the US M10's, and figure in that the US moving from the M10 to the M18 tank destroyers in T3 will still have some M18's left in T4, which while made of recycled sardine cans cant not be matched for flanking speed.

Id say that should play very interesting and fun VS an axis force fielding the PZ V Panther as it's now MBT with the rare Tiger II playing the role of mobile fortress, and their remaining tiger I's from T2  filling in a bit for midrange standoff.  Add that they will have a jagdpanzer TD with the same gun as the panther as well as other goodies, and beware the little man pushing the PAK43.

And depending on how the entire supply thing plays out, perhaps we may have some units relegated to the yesteryear bargain basement kit
where suddenly you have this large fight of PZii and PZ38t and r35 and vickers etc cause there wasnt anything better in the area.

 

 

BTW on the panther, Its all about the flank,
the flank,
the flank,
no frontal

Its all about that flank, about that flank
No frontals

:) 
 

Yes

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9 minutes ago, brady said:

Yes

Its kind of hard to shoot a wedge of cheese frontally :D
No front to shoot

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1 hour ago, merlin51 said:

Its kind of hard to shoot a wedge of cheese frontally :D
No front to shoot

Well They do have A shot trap

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15 minutes ago, brady said:

Well They do have A shot trap

Yea but like other units in the game that have one, your milage may vary, not a good way to bank the retirement fund.

I vote for the multicrewed M18
You get that turret on him, Ill fly us through the woods to his flank, you yell, we stop, you fire, I take off like a bat out of h3ll

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14 hours ago, brady said:

Well They do have A shot trap

Unfortunately the game does not have ricochet function to take advantage of shot traps.  The later Panther changed the design of the mantle to eliminate the shot trap.  The game can do ricochet, It would be cool if they could limit it to 1 for cannot rounds, that would be a very cool visual and mb even get some secondary kills from it.

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