Silky

To what question is population-triggered AOs the answer?

78 posts in this topic

Is it about the Democratisation of strategic play or is it that AOs need to be more enjoyable, or is it something else?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, Silky said:

or is it something else?

The fact that almost no one wants to be in HC, and CRS has tapped out both the playerbase and themselves for people to pull HC duty.

 

I mean there are a bunch of other good gameplay and conceptual reasons to make the change, but I'll wager that that's the one at the top.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I really don’t think management of AOs is or ever has been the factor that burns out HC. Adding and removing AOs is far less of a pain then management of every bit of supply in the map. 

I would leave HC in charge of AOs and create an easy GUI to manage it. When HC are not online or are list as AFK just make it fall to the next highest ranking person who is not AFK. 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
34 minutes ago, saronin said:

I would leave HC in charge of AOs and create an easy GUI to manage it. When HC are not online or are list as AFK just make it fall to the next highest ranking person who is not AFK. 

Yes.......

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
37 minutes ago, saronin said:

I would leave HC in charge of AOs and create an easy GUI to manage it. When HC are not online or are list as AFK just make it fall to the next highest ranking person who is not AFK.

there was that month with 3-8 hour stretches of no HC of any rank whatsoever. not TZ3 but America morning to end of prime-time. nobody even OIC volunteered

no GUI or HC system improvements will work if there's no HC.

they may help but HC is riddled with problems from getting in, to knowing how it works, to using it, to keeping it running. in the end it turns into unpaid work.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, major0noob said:

there was that month with 3-8 hour stretches of no HC of any rank whatsoever. not TZ3 but America morning to end of prime-time. nobody even OIC volunteered

no GUI or HC system improvements will work if there's no HC.

they may help but HC is riddled with problems from getting in, to knowing how it works, to using it, to keeping it running. in the end it turns into unpaid work.

I refuse to believe that a Graphical User Interface, instead of a dot command, to add or remove a simple AO is so complicated that the highest ranking person on the side at that given moment can't figure it out.  Even so I will concede that the system should ask for volunteers to step on and lead first.  The highest ranking volunteer should be picked by system.  If everyone on the server is truly that dumb that they can't figure out how to use a quick click interface to add and remove AOs, it's better that they have system AOs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

dot commands... the current UI... mouse over madness... the chat box... all need to go bye bye.

We could really use a solid and non-complicated GUI.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Removing and setting attack objectives is very simple presently no dot commands required.

you just mouse over a town select an option that pops and click it...

The only really madning part of map management are the French unit codes, but I have a list that’s easily referred to, but ffs I would love to meet the guy who set up the French unit codes in a dark ally with a dull soup spoon

Edited by brady
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, brady said:

but ffs I would love to meet the guy who set up the French unit codes

Probably some french guy?

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My read on this is that the Strat game is the death of fun for the tactical game.

That’s a grotesque oversimplification but I think that’s a nutshell.

So to solve this what their trying to do  is make every town have supply.  This to me would seemingly solve the what is perceived to be the problem.

 High command is part of the perceived problem as I understand it insomuch as they have to  work the Brigades in order to save them so they can fight another day or two advance the map and either going or coming these manipulations are at odds with players having fun tactically.

 So removing high command from the decision-making tree and putting it in the hands of the people is perceived to be part if the solution

It’s a Commie conspiracy

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, merlin51 said:

Probably some french guy?

Oue 

i certainly hope so 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, saronin said:

factor that burns out HC. Adding and removing AOs is far less of a pain then management of every bit of supply in the map. 

 It’s really not that hard to do, and it’s actually pretty easy the longer you’re on, it takes 10 to 15 minutes to read the map and then after that you just have to monitor stuff.

 Even with multiple AOs it’s not hard to do, I think it’s fun, I think the problem is that if some people would rather be in the field then watching map their going to be torn.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, brady said:

Removing and setting attack objectives is very simple presently no dot commands required.

you just mouse over a town select an option that pops and click it...

The only really madning part of map management are the French unit codes, but I have a list that’s easily referred to, but ffs I would love to meet the guy who set up the French unit codes in a dark ally with a dull soup spoon

This is part of my complaint - the TOES/AO/HC system we have is woefully under-developed, and designed with so many flaws it’s little wonder it’s failed - a prime example being the nonsensical French codes, the Axis pzd/pz code anomalies and unnecessarily long American codes. 

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, brady said:

My read on this is that the Strat game is the death of fun for the tactical game.

That’s a grotesque oversimplification but I think that’s a nutshell.

So to solve this what their trying to do  is make every town have supply.  This to me would seemingly solve the what is perceived to be the problem.

 High command is part of the perceived problem as I understand it insomuch as they have to  work the Brigades in order to save them so they can fight another day or two advance the map and either going or coming these manipulations are at odds with players having fun tactically.

 So removing high command from the decision-making tree and putting it in the hands of the people is perceived to be part if the solution

It’s a Commie conspiracy

The only part of TOES that really hurts tactical game play is the constant warping of brigades into a hot AO.  Rather than warping brigades through the game world there should be a physical manifestation that has to take place to move a brigade.  That way if a town is surrounded a who division isn't just popping up in the middle of it without having to fight its way in.

I the real problem is the burnout rate on HC players.  Many don't just leave HC, they leave the game. I pretty sure the rats did their homework on that one.  XOOM seemed pretty adamant that was a real problem.

Rather than remove all decision from HC, I think we should work the thing in increments.  Since they are going to a hybrid system anyway just do that and let it play out.  We might find that removing the majority of the brigades from the game takes most of the burden off of HC.  Who knows.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, saronin said:

I think we should work the thing in increments.  Since they are going to a hybrid system anyway just do that and let it play out.  We might find that removing the majority of the brigades from the game takes most of the burden off of HC.  Who knows.

+10. treat the game like its in beta development - especially with the launch on steam and new player potential. try stuff to test live and learn, analyze and adapt on the way to a revised strat layer, new/cleaner ui, and maybe even 2.0

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, saronin said:

The only part of TOES that really hurts tactical game play is the constant warping of brigades into a hot AO.  Rather than warping brigades through the game world there should be a physical manifestation that has to take place to move a brigade.  That way if a town is surrounded a who division isn't just popping up in the middle of it without having to fight its way in.

I the real problem is the burnout rate on HC players.  Many don't just leave HC, they leave the game. I pretty sure the rats did their homework on that one.  XOOM seemed pretty adamant that was a real problem.

Rather than remove all decision from HC, I think we should work the thing in increments.  Since they are going to a hybrid system anyway just do that and let it play out.  We might find that removing the majority of the brigades from the game takes most of the burden off of HC.  Who knows.

The burden could have been mitigated had the numerous suggestions been implemented, just simple tools like the ability to set a fallback, to program moves, to have visible supply replace the .du command etc 

Those changes would have improved the HC play immeasurably

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

To my knowledge, the idea of "Player Placed AOs" was supposed to be a solution for times when there are no HCs online to place AOs.

 

How it suddenly became the forefront of a new AO system is a mystery.  Of the issues with the current iteration of HC and supply, the placement of AOs is generally not at the top of the list.  

 

There's also the fact that there are "good" towns to take at a given time vs "bad" towns to take.  All towns need to eventually be captured, but the order of capture is best left to individual decision makers and NOT to a population that is changing every minute of every day.  

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, Capco said:

To my knowledge, the idea of "Player Placed AOs" was supposed to be a solution for times when there are no HCs online to place AOs.

 

How it suddenly became the forefront of a new AO system is a mystery.  Of the issues with the current iteration of HC and supply, the placement of AOs is generally not at the top of the list.  

The new proposed systems is supposed to allow HC to lead from the field, from in the battle, rather than staring at the map screen for endless hours until your brain turns to mush.

So basically you get out in the field, rally troops and lead them into battle.

Supply will be more a direct hands on thing with less having to micromanage flags all over creation
You will though need to keep tabs of your primary, and supporting supply pools and know when to call off an attack, whether to fall back and counter, or to cease and hold and shore up from supporting pools against possible counter.

The flags could be bonus items more than the minute by minute necessities, and could even maybe allow for things that on wide scale would be too unbalancing
but in limited individual scale could work well.

Like for example, what if axis got the tiger in T2 where it historically belongs
But it only exists in the 501st Heavy Panzer flag? (until later tiers as it propagates out)

One might be very interested in where the 501st goes (especially if it moves around a bit more realistically and doesnt just warp across the map)
 

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, major0noob said:

there was that month with 3-8 hour stretches of no HC of any rank whatsoever. not TZ3 but America morning to end of prime-time. nobody even OIC volunteered

no GUI or HC system improvements will work if there's no HC.

they may help but HC is riddled with problems from getting in, to knowing how it works, to using it, to keeping it running. in the end it turns into unpaid work.

More people might step up if they dont have to juggle Brigade movement and setting fallbacks and all that associated crap.....

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Map is very easy to manage when your side is on a role, moving forward is simple, good planning is helpful for setting up Brigades to be able to exploit a break through but the actual work of moving the brigades is easy.

HOWEAVER- my game Voice- when your losing its a juggling act setting fall backs can be challenging  especially  since u need to maintain a front line while doing so, this I am Shure make players frustrated because their begging for supply and u cant move any up till the timer runs out*

Silky's right about the interface, it is overcomplicated to have to type in dot commands to check supply and fall backs, this takes time, but once u have done it for the Day, or rather your day on map, you don't really need to do it to often after word.

All this is sorta mute though and in a way sad to see this era come to an end I am glad I got to experience it though at least for a  few months.

I know what their after is a better system and I, as a player, understand why they want to do this, but the HC officer in me cant help but think that their throwing the baby out with the bath water.

 

 

* I sort of get off on this though, its fun puzzling out how to do it.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, saronin said:

I refuse to believe that a Graphical User Interface, instead of a dot command, to add or remove a simple AO is so complicated that the highest ranking person on the side at that given moment can't figure it out.  Even so I will concede that the system should ask for volunteers to step on and lead first.  The highest ranking volunteer should be picked by system.  If everyone on the server is truly that dumb that they can't figure out how to use a quick click interface to add and remove AOs, it's better that they have system AOs.

it's not that players dumb, we just don't want to.

nearly everyone that plays WW2:OL logs in to have a bit of fun, shoving work down their throats for the sake of strategic layers is not fun.

it should be a volunteer system, and if there're no volunteers the game should be still be playable. with the current system it is not.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, major0noob said:

it's not that players dumb, we just don't want to.

nearly everyone that plays WW2:OL logs in to have a bit of fun, shoving work down their throats for the sake of strategic layers is not fun.

it should be a volunteer system, and if there're no volunteers the game should be still be playable. with the current system it is not.

With the removal of most of the brigades though, I hardly think taking up the mantle of saying attack this town or attack that town is a heavy burden.  At that point I might even join HC.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

there're still flags in the hybrid system, as far as we know there will be 3x more and they'll need even more paperwork...

 

what we do know is: there'll still be fallbacks, movements, rotations, cutoffs, rules, and all that bad stuff we have now.

if there's no HC on the problem will still be there, it just won't put the game in to a catatonic state.

 

 

the question we should be asking is will this replace the silly "system AO"?

it tries to do the same thing (AO's with no HC), however with recent game changes we need too much pre/mid/post-AO prep and paperwork. even if the system AO succeeds in getting a town: it'll be empty.

 

then there's the absolute one-sided no-HC vs some-HC, it was as bad as TZ3 white-flagging 1/2 the map.

 

pop-AO's, and town supply will solve all these problems

Edited by major0noob

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, saronin said:

With the removal of most of the brigades though, I hardly think taking up the mantle of saying attack this town or attack that town is a heavy burden.  At that point I might even join HC.

It will still suck. Telling some players that they don't get to attack, then having to justify it somehow while they complain either to you, your make-believe superior officer, or to CRS sucks. They'll [censored] all over the side chat and forums about how you wouldn't give them an AO despite all their hard work to set it up, they'll be right and the best case scenario is that you'll be right-er. I'm sure some people get their kicks out of pulling and denying AOs to random players, but it's essentially an unpaid customer service job where you take the grief from other customers for free. No one wants to deal with all that negativity.

 

I mean seriously why put a human in the position of having to choose who gets to have fun, and who has to just deal with it?. Put some hard and fast rules down and let the players operate around them. If I need 50 players spawned in near town then I can work toward that and get a plan going to get 50 warm bodies near town whether than means getting big, joining with other squads for the night or convincing the pubs to spawn in. I have options. Can't do [censored] though about convincing some guy that thinks we need to keep the six-hour AO on Antwerp going, or AO Schilde for the third time in a day, or who thinks that we shouldn't be attacking at all and wants the entire team to sit on defense for the next eight hours. Squads certainly can't grow if the squad leaders have zero control over what they're going to be doing on squad night.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, david01 said:

It will still suck. Telling some players that they don't get to attack, then having to justify it somehow while they complain either to you, your make-believe superior officer, or to CRS sucks. They'll [censored] all over the side chat and forums about how you wouldn't give them an AO despite all their hard work to set it up, they'll be right and the best case scenario is that you'll be right-er. I'm sure some people get their kicks out of pulling and denying AOs to random players, but it's essentially an unpaid customer service job where you take the grief from other customers for free. No one wants to deal with all that negativity.

 

I mean seriously why put a human in the position of having to choose who gets to have fun, and who has to just deal with it?. Put some hard and fast rules down and let the players operate around them. If I need 50 players spawned in near town then I can work toward that and get a plan going to get 50 warm bodies near town whether than means getting big, joining with other squads for the night or convincing the pubs to spawn in. I have options. Can't do [censored] though about convincing some guy that thinks we need to keep the six-hour AO on Antwerp going, or AO Schilde for the third time in a day, or who thinks that we shouldn't be attacking at all and wants the entire team to sit on defense for the next eight hours. Squads certainly can't grow if the squad leaders have zero control over what they're going to be doing on squad night.

Thier will still be a limited number of AO’s, thier will half to be.

the present system forces HC to chuse many of the more negative options you list above, town based supply will Eliminate the necessity for most of that

But again you will only have just so many AO’s to go around

For several hours earlier today each side had only one attack objectives their were not sufficient players  in game to generate  more than that so if you come on game in that situation under the new players triggered attack objective you’re still going to be stuck with what ever attack objective happens to be up you won’t be able to grab A group and go generate another one because the population will have to determine how many are available 

Otherwise you won’t have populated fights

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.