Silky

To what question is population-triggered AOs the answer?

78 posts in this topic

13 hours ago, Pittpete said:

More people might step up if they dont have to juggle Brigade movement and setting fallbacks and all that associated crap.....

Respectfully,

For doing exactly what that cannot do at the moment?

Oh yeah, I guess the answer: lead in the field?

Normally, and unfortunately, the people who have to manage the map is THE SAME that lead in the field. Nothing has forbidden to anybody to get in HC to basically do tactical stuff. In fact, there always have been roles for that and create content for PB.

Nothing of that happened, because it is easier and more confortable to be talkative and rant from the backseat, instead of go and "lead".

We will see now if we have new hordes of "leaders" taking the reigns and filling the fields.

We will see.

 

Edited by erasmo
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20 hours ago, Pittpete said:

I would leave HC in charge of AOs and create an easy GUI to manage it. When HC are not online or are list as AFK just make it fall to the next highest ranking person who is not AFK. 

 

Yes.......

 

So you mean every Lt Col out there?...............thats like almost everyone.

Edited by bmw

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14 hours ago, Pittpete said:

More people might step up if they dont have to juggle Brigade movement and setting fallbacks and all that associated crap.....

This 1001%

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15 hours ago, merlin51 said:

The new proposed systems is supposed to allow HC to lead from the field, from in the battle, rather than staring at the map screen for endless hours until your brain turns to mush.

So basically you get out in the field, rally troops and lead them into battle.

Supply will be more a direct hands on thing with less having to micromanage flags all over creation
You will though need to keep tabs of your primary, and supporting supply pools and know when to call off an attack, whether to fall back and counter, or to cease and hold and shore up from supporting pools against possible counter.

The flags could be bonus items more than the minute by minute necessities, and could even maybe allow for things that on wide scale would be too unbalancing
but in limited individual scale could work well.

Like for example, what if axis got the tiger in T2 where it historically belongs
But it only exists in the 501st Heavy Panzer flag? (until later tiers as it propagates out)

One might be very interested in where the 501st goes (especially if it moves around a bit more realistically and doesnt just warp across the map)

Not only did you not tell me anything I didn't already know, but this response has literally nothing to do with my post or Player Placed AOs.  

 

A lot of your posts are really good merlin, but occasionaly you produce ones like this where it seems like you just like to hear yourself speak (or read what you write, technically).  

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11 hours ago, david01 said:

Squads certainly can't grow if the squad leaders have zero control over what they're going to be doing on squad night.

You make it sound as if squads and HC are not only completely independent, but actually at odds with one another.  Almost everyone in HC is in a squad so this premise is patently false.  

 

You know, we have a separate chat channel that only we in HC can see (colloquially known as Blue Chat).  While there is the occasional heated debate about what's best to do next, the majority of conversations revolve around comments like "how can we help?" or "Lancers will set FRUs at the next P1" or "WHIPS will form the tank column in 10min"... and NOT "Lancers are logging off since we can't get an AO on Schilde after setting it up [withouth working with the MOIC's objectives]" or "WHIPS are resigning all their members from GHC since the MOIC won't move a reserve flag to the front".

 

Those squads that work with HC are the most successful squads, and those officers that work with squads are the most successful officers.  Working together across squad lines (which HC facilitates) is superior to squads working independently and trying to do their own thing, especially when they are at odds with one another despite being on the same side.  

Edited by Capco
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2 hours ago, bmw said:

So you mean every Lt Col out there?...............thats like almost everyone.

Do the same thing the real military does. Date of rank or probably in the case of CRS join date as a tie breaker as it were. Failing that go with number of lifetime sorties. That would narrow it down to a particular person. 

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Here is my concern. Often on squad nights my squad along with a second drunken squad usually ends up dictating the fight on on the Axis side. It’s not as though we are telling people what to do or how to play. We just have the organized numbers in comms actually working together. That doesn’t mean however that we make up the majority of the server pop for our side necessarily. When we log on, at times there may be a couple AOs clearly going nowhere and it’s best to set up a new attack and do it right. We usually mass up, work with HC to get the AO, and the rollout. Sometime after we’re set up green tags and blue tags show up.  

The concern is what happens when you have a couple AOs that are essentially a dead stick with everyone doing their own thing but there are enough numbers to keep them plodding along. Sure, we can announce we are setting up a new attack but will people really show up?  I don’t know. It seems to me most people only show up after the AO is dropped even when we announce everything beforehand.  That whole set up stuff is just icky and not fun. Why would they want to bother with that?  The worry is that you end up with useless AOs that can’t be removed because people won’t move unless another AO is already set up that clearly looks more fun. However, the people working the setup may not have the population clout to get said AO. Given that many of the new players simply ignore chat and won’t hey on voice comms I could see this happening.

Maybe this is a concern that won’t manifest itself at all. I don’t know. On the other hand it may add more frustration than the current system. 

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11 hours ago, brady said:

For several hours earlier today each side had only one attack objectives their were not sufficient players  in game to generate  more than that so if you come on game in that situation under the new players triggered attack objective you’re still going to be stuck with what ever attack objective happens to be up you won’t be able to grab A group and go generate another one because the population will have to determine how many are available
 

If something in the game is determined by player population then you or anyone can do something about it. It's a MMO and the ultimate skill in a MMO is being able to organize other people. Even in the extreme situations I can hit up people offline or playing other games to get more people. "Get more people" to go attack somewhere is a vast improvement over having to lobby or become a HC officer and deal with politics to perform a basic game task.

 

1 hour ago, Capco said:

Those squads that work with HC are the most successful squads, and those officers that work with squads are the most successful officers.  Working together across squad lines (which HC facilitates) is superior to squads working independently and trying to do their own thing, especially when they are at odds with one another despite being on the same side.  

There aren't enough squads left to even fill out the host squad program anymore much less conduct decent ops, and there are so few HC officers that it can't even staff itself 24/7. At this point I have to ask just what do you consider "successful"? You're telling people how to run their squads in order to succeed but what's you're criteria? I ask this because I see a game with less than 100 people online half of the day, and whose biggest squads put up fewer numbers on a planned squad night than a casual platoon in other games.

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1 hour ago, saronin said:

Here is my concern. Often on squad nights my squad along with a second drunken squad usually ends up dictating the fight on on the Axis side. It’s not as though we are telling people what to do or how to play. We just have the organized numbers in comms actually working together. That doesn’t mean however that we make up the majority of the server pop for our side necessarily. When we log on, at times there may be a couple AOs clearly going nowhere and it’s best to set up a new attack and do it right. We usually mass up, work with HC to get the AO, and the rollout. Sometime after we’re set up green tags and blue tags show up.  

The concern is what happens when you have a couple AOs that are essentially a dead stick with everyone doing their own thing but there are enough numbers to keep them plodding along. Sure, we can announce we are setting up a new attack but will people really show up?  I don’t know. It seems to me most people only show up after the AO is dropped even when we announce everything beforehand.  That whole set up stuff is just icky and not fun. Why would they want to bother with that?  The worry is that you end up with useless AOs that can’t be removed because people won’t move unless another AO is already set up that clearly looks more fun. However, the people working the setup may not have the population clout to get said AO. Given that many of the new players simply ignore chat and won’t hey on voice comms I could see this happening.

Maybe this is a concern that won’t manifest itself at all. I don’t know. On the other hand it may add more frustration than the current system. 

I agree with these general sentiments.  

 

32 minutes ago, david01 said:

There aren't enough squads left to even fill out the host squad program anymore much less conduct decent ops, and there are so few HC officers that it can't even staff itself 24/7. At this point I have to ask just what do you consider "successful"? You're telling people how to run their squads in order to succeed but what's you're criteria? I ask this because I see a game with less than 100 people online half of the day, and whose biggest squads put up fewer numbers on a planned squad night than a casual platoon in other games.

All the more reason for these bits and pieces to be unified under a single banner, accomplishing a collective set of goals. 

 

Success is defined as winning campaigns.  The game hasn't come to a standstill so success is still being achieved.  HC doesn't issue orders.  We guide and direct.  After that, it's all up to the PB to determine the outcomes.  As an officer, I would never tell another squad how they should organize themselves.  I'm a pretty confident officer but even I'm not that brazen or arrogant.  

 

All I'm stating is the benefits of working together.  People already work together under a single identity and a single commander; these units are known as squads.  I don't think asking squads to work together under the leadership of an officer is asking too much, especially when the officer corps is composed of their squad's own members.  

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a lot of time there aren't even any squad CO's on...

i think david's point was "sucess" has replaced plain old working.

 

now it's:

squad/HC/players not in sync? the AO will not develop.

it should be:

squad/HC/players not in sync? the AO will likely fail

 

 

Edited by major0noob

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2 hours ago, saronin said:

When we log on, at times there may be a couple AOs clearly going nowhere and it’s best to set up a new attack and do it right. We usually mass up, work with HC to get the AO, and the rollout. Sometime after we’re set up green tags and blue tags show up.

should this be necessary? there are too many AO's that fail to generate even a single capture

2 hours ago, saronin said:

The concern is what happens when you have a couple AOs that are essentially a dead stick with everyone doing their own thing but there are enough numbers to keep them plodding along. Sure, we can announce we are setting up a new attack but will people really show up? I don’t know. It seems to me most people only show up after the AO is dropped even when we announce everything beforehand.

we've gotten pretty hopeless with AO's, chances are this one will just turn into another stick in the mud. at least in the old stick in the mud there a few enemies to fight

2 hours ago, saronin said:

That whole set up stuff is just icky and not fun. Why would they want to bother with that?

should this be necessary? there's no reason set-up should suck as much as they do

 

 

2 hours ago, saronin said:

 The worry is that you end up with useless AOs that can’t be removed because people won’t move unless another AO is already set up that clearly looks more fun. However, the people working the setup may not have the population clout to get said AO. Given that many of the new players simply ignore chat and won’t hey on voice comms I could see this happening.

Maybe this is a concern that won’t manifest itself at all. I don’t know. On the other hand it may add more frustration than the current system. 

you need to stop thinking of this as replacing HC-AO's and look at it as replacing system-AO's.

Edited by major0noob

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6 hours ago, erasmo said:

Respectfully,

For doing exactly what that cannot do at the moment?

Oh yeah, I guess the answer: lead in the field?

Normally, and unfortunately, the people who have to manage the map is THE SAME that lead in the field. Nothing has forbidden to anybody to get in HC to basically do tactical stuff. In fact, there always have been roles for that and create content for PB.

Nothing of that happened, because it is easier and more confortable to be talkative and rant from the backseat, instead of go and "lead".

We will see now if we have new hordes of "leaders" taking the reigns and filling the fields.

We will see.

 

Respectfully you dont seem to pay much attention to what people are saying and you dont seem to pay much attention to what goes on with HC either.

For every one time i see and HC "lead from the field" i see the same guy unable to on ten other occasions cause he is alone saddled down with tedious chores that don't left him leave the map screen, while the other HC's are either afk for extended durations, or are not on at all.

While maybe a few actually do enjoy that, i would bet that most of them walk away feeling like "Damn 6 hours, and i didn't even get to actually play the game"

It's gotten to the point where many dont want to be HC and the ones left are burnt out from fidgeting with micromanaged stuff for hours staring at a map screen

juggling AO's babysitting supply, trying to juggle flags around etc.

There are other issues, that we wont go into here, but they are undeniable as well.

Need to take off the rose glasses, cause your not hearing your fellow players including current and former HC's

 

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2 hours ago, merlin51 said:

Respectfully you dont seem to pay much attention to what people are saying and you dont seem to pay much attention to what goes on with HC either.

For every one time i see and HC "lead from the field" i see the same guy unable to on ten other occasions cause he is alone saddled down with tedious chores that don't left him leave the map screen, while the other HC's are either afk for extended durations, or are not on at all.

While maybe a few actually do enjoy that, i would bet that most of them walk away feeling like "Damn 6 hours, and i didn't even get to actually play the game"

It's gotten to the point where many dont want to be HC and the ones left are burnt out from fidgeting with micromanaged stuff for hours staring at a map screen

juggling AO's babysitting supply, trying to juggle flags around etc.

There are other issues, that we wont go into here, but they are undeniable as well.

Need to take off the rose glasses, cause your not hearing your fellow players including current and former HC's

Selecting AOs is not a major drain on HC, the very real stress associated with being a HC player are:

  • Having to check fallbacks and timers using impossible to remember codes, eg 4thmacrd, 2ndlmd that bear next to no relation to the brigade name
  • Having to use the ridiculous codes above and the ridiculously complex .du command to assess brigade strength/supply
  • Having no way to stack or pre-load moves, meaning key moves get missed if someone's not actively managing it - this is the killer, from the emotional/psychological stress perspective. It's literally 'I cannot log off, or the hole won't get filled or the line shift won't be completed'
  • Having to rely on moving units into the fallback town to set a fallback - this is a nightmare going into TZ3 or no-pop situation
  • Having no way to communicate your plan or thoughts to the playerbase, other than constantly repeating yourself, so the plan gets reduced to "P1 XXX", as you can't keep repeating "We'll push on XXX but need to watch YYY and I'd like the ZZZ FBs for the next attack"
  • Having no integral way to communicate with squads, or seeing which squads are active
  • Having no way to tell how many players you have on and where they're playing
  • Having the tactical planning limited to enemy boat marks, and having no way to easily communicate anything like a plan to the playerbase other than spam text
  • Having to use 6 text chat channels, with no loop facility, no chat macros, no shared channels

 

I could go on.

 

Making AOs player/EWS triggered does nothing to fix these, and without improving the tactical battle comms elements of the game, the field leadership will remain a challenge

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4 hours ago, Capco said:

Success is defined as winning campaigns.  The game hasn't come to a standstill so success is still being achieved.  HC doesn't issue orders.  We guide and direct.  After that, it's all up to the PB to determine the outcomes.  As an officer, I would never tell another squad how they should organize themselves.  I'm a pretty confident officer but even I'm not that brazen or arrogant.  

 

All I'm stating is the benefits of working together.  People already work together under a single identity and a single commander; these units are known as squads.  I don't think asking squads to work together under the leadership of an officer is asking too much, especially when the officer corps is composed of their squad's own members.  

 

If success is still being achieved why have do you have to beg people to join HC? Why are there no big squads left? If HC doesn't issue orders then why are all the HC officers burnt-out?

 

At any rate your idea of success has nothing to to with player numbers or player satisfaction. Those things are important for a MMO business.

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After over a decade in HC I think I have a perspective

Back when I was CinC I had to place new applicants in the Navy until a spot opened in the Army, the roster was full but even then once a side started losing towns it was hard to find an HC taking control, nobody wants to be blamed when the front moves east or west, we had LW guys complaining about non LW moving their units etc... so I created the Map Officer in Charge system, this allowed a volunteer to watch the campaign, assign an officer to be in control of Navy, Air and Ground leaving him to think, originally we had an RO to communicate for the MOIC. This took a load off of the guy in charge and spread it to his team, it also improved the movement of units because each department had an OIC and it wasn't up to 1 guy to manage everything.

This worked great when we had a full roster, it really suffered after the economy tanked and the game fell on hard times. We are constantly discussing the whole system to find ways to improve it, one of the things we are trying to address is burnout and retention, all who have been in charge of the map when it's moving quickly can agree it's stressful, managing fallbacks, supply, comms with players... it'll make you bald.

So we're trying to come up with a system that relieves the burden, this game should be all about having fun, not wringing your hands and pulling your hair. One of the most stressful things is supply and brigade movement as any general in the real world will tell you, logistics is hell. Changing to a hybrid system with town based supply can improve HC retention because officers will be freed from a chore and can focus more on setting up and leading battles.

Keep in mind that we don't want to expend our limited resources in completely patching this game, better to keep it playable, fun and adding new toys as we explore the possibility of version 2.0

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3 hours ago, merlin51 said:

Respectfully you dont seem to pay much attention to what people are saying and you dont seem to pay much attention to what goes on with HC either.

For every one time i see and HC "lead from the field" i see the same guy unable to on ten other occasions cause he is alone saddled down with tedious chores that don't left him leave the map screen, while the other HC's are either afk for extended durations, or are not on at all.

While maybe a few actually do enjoy that, i would bet that most of them walk away feeling like "Damn 6 hours, and i didn't even get to actually play the game"

It's gotten to the point where many dont want to be HC and the ones left are burnt out from fidgeting with micromanaged stuff for hours staring at a map screen

juggling AO's babysitting supply, trying to juggle flags around etc.

There are other issues, that we wont go into here, but they are undeniable as well.

Need to take off the rose glasses, cause your not hearing your fellow players including current and former HC's

 

I perfectly know how HC works because I spent years in it, both sides, with quite a decent success if I am allowed to say. So, take this advise: don't lecture people like you were the only guy here who knows how to play this.

And when you do ingame as well as you post in forums, maybe I will let you enlighten me. Meanwhile, moderate yourself, please.

 

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7 minutes ago, erasmo said:

I perfectly know how HC works because I spent years in it, both sides, with quite a decent success if I am allowed to say. So, take this advise: don't lecture people like you were the only guy here who knows how to play this.

And when you do ingame as well as you post in forums, maybe I will let you enlighten me. Meanwhile, moderate yourself, please.

 

Wow... you completely misunderstood me, I'll write this off to a language difference because you read it completely differently than my intent

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1 minute ago, KMS said:

Wow... you completely misunderstood me, I'll write this off to a language difference because you read it completely differently than my intent

I was not refering to your post. Unless you and the other guy are the same.

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2 minutes ago, KMS said:

Wow... you completely misunderstood me, I'll write this off to a language difference because you read it completely differently than my intent

He's quoting merlin, not you ;)

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4 minutes ago, erasmo said:

Unless you and the other guy are the same.

No KMS is the handsome one.

Though his response is semi valid, i don't think you understood anything i said

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3 minutes ago, merlin51 said:

No KMS is the handsome one.

Though his response is semi valid, i don't think you understood anything i said

Oh yes, forum camper.

You won.

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As to the OP, the population trigger was added to keep a heavily overpop side from placing a bunch of AOs that the low pop side couldn't respond to

The AO/pop ratio is based on the amount of players on the low pop side

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5 minutes ago, KMS said:

As to the OP, the population trigger was added to keep a heavily overpop side from placing a bunch of AOs that the low pop side couldn't respond to

The AO/pop ratio is based on the amount of players on the low pop side

Wrong issue. People here are under the impression that in1.36 the AOs will be put into effect with a mass of players rather than a dot command by HC.

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