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ZEBBEEE

Next fix for the gameplay : Depot (RE)spawning

20 posts in this topic

CONTEXT :

As announced for 1.36 :

  • EWS-triggered AO will be great [edit : correction - still being discussed, but that wouldn't impact the idea bellow]
  • Garrison-based towns with extra moveable supply will also be great. 
  • In 1.36 defenders will have a rear FB to counter camping situations

Once this is done, we should focus on the depot-spawning thing which is 10 years old and also contributed to decrease the creativity of battle plans, hurting the motivation of OICs.

Because of depots, most battles only start when a spawnable is captured in town and stop as soon as it is retaken. Floods of uncoordinated lonewolves result from this, leaving OICs without much power over ressources. Defenders also got no power over the missions spread all over defensive depots. No wonder new players are lost with this as well.

 

SUGGESTION :

Thanks to our current FMS concept and with those expected changes, we can finally consider to REMOVE depot spawning both for attackers and defenders.

edit : or limit those to rifles only.

However, we could still consider a useful re-use of depots :

If a unit (infantry, truck, gun) dies within a 200m-range of a side-owned depot, it can respawn from that depot but only with the same weapon (or swithing to riffle, still supplied from the original spawn). It is like the current warping system, but only when dying. If someone want to change his weapon, he needs to leave again from AB/FB/FMS.

 

CONSEQUENCES :

Removing depot spawning (as initial spawn location) would instantly ease the centralization of players departing from the same origin, hence providing a better immersion experience.

Allowing to respawn at depots would allow to keep a group/squad cohesion.

It would also add a new fun way to use paratroopers (they paradrop on any depot, capture it and can hold it until it is recaptured).

Attackers would also less spread over the town, giving defenders the opportunity to set up coordinated counter-attacks on depots, mostly with an attrition-style battle.

 

 

OICs would finally get back their influence over the battlefield, suggesting coordinated/grouped moves from depot to depot, with everyone leaving from a fortified spawn (FB/FMS/AB).

Please vote.

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2 minutes ago, Zebbeee said:

As announced for 1.36 :

  • EWS-triggered AO will be great. 

No decision has been made on changing the AO initiation mechaninc

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30 minutes ago, B2K said:

No decision had been made on changing the AO initiation mechaninc. But if you ask for it, we will go for it.

Fixed.

:D

 

Q : can we consider an intermission with all depots unabled to give it a try ? (although the respawning feature is the actual critical idea).

Edited by Zebbeee

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I think your analysis of the problems for OIC's is correct, however, I'm not at all sure this would be the answer, as in effect it would promote mass-armour zerging attacks to seal off AB's again, to counter which, AO's and CP spawning were developed.

Personally, I think this would be an improvement:

1. All mission members should see all marked enemy units on map. (this we have)

2. All ML's should see all other ML's FMS's and OIC and physical positions, and should have a greater selection of tools than "rally here"/"bombard" 

3. OIC and all HC'ers  should be as ML's above, but have a greater selection of tools than ML's, so that ML's can read what's needed, and exactly where, and tailor their orders and positions to suit.

Note that in effect it's simply a hierarchical tool-box, which can be ignored, or, used extensively by a well organised squad to implement a plan. I think that's a safer proposition than a major change to game mechnics which have evolved for a reason - the map is too large and FB's too close, and trucks too fast, for the available playerbase to react quick enough to new attacks before the AB can be sealed off. Which means CP spawning is here to stay.

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On 12/10/2017 at 7:35 AM, B2K said:

No decision has been made on changing the AO initiation mechaninc

Thats fine............but Im disapointed in the statement in General.

No decision means 1.36 is still a long ways off and we need this sooner than later............whatever the decisions are.

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In general, the one paradigm that has held true in WWII Online is the more spawn points the better. 

Battles are better in two AB towns. Every town should have at least two ABs. It’s hard to Zerg two ABs at the same time. 

With the FMS missions need more than one spawn to help prevent camping. 

Boiling things down into a single spawn point in this game has often ended in disaster. 

Edited by saronin
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7 hours ago, fidd said:

it would promote mass-armour zerging attacks to seal off AB's again, to counter which, AO's and CP spawning were developed.

Depot spawning came as first solution to AB camping, indeed. But it resulted in permanent ninja-capping of spawnables over the fronline, and made attacks almost impossible to succeed as soon as defenders showed up.

AOs came to fix the ninja-caps by allowing defenders to set up, but it further resulted in fortifications almost impossible to capture.  Despite forcing attackers to group up, the loss of OIC leadership due to the destruction of squad-based orbat resulted in a FPS-style game. WWIIol lost most of its community at that time.

MSP>FRU>FMS came later to fix this, but it was too late and - combined to depot spawning - contributed to further spread ressources over the map, further diminishing the in-field influence of OICs and sensation of "group" action. Poor figures of retention from steam is the proof of this, people just don't understand where to spawn from and where to go. 

 

Today, with the new fortified version of the mobile spawn + defensive PPOs + defensive backup FBs (suppression of brigade-spawning), depots have become obsolete as spawn origins. By removing it we can give back better control to OICs and simplify our game system. Otherwise the 1.36 plan will fail to raise new leaders.

Defenders should use defensive FRUs to simulate areas of control. They should avoid using ABs  if it is camped and counter-attack from the rear-FBs, or protect it with PPOs. No-man's land towns offers the best tactical battles. It must become the standard. I guarantee that AB camping will be impossible to sustain with all the ingame rules we have today.

 

It definitly deserves a try during intermission. Although the respawning/warping ability remains a key feature for group cohesion.

 

 

Edited by Zebbeee

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On ‎12‎/‎10‎/‎2017 at 4:35 AM, B2K said:

No decision has been made on changing the AO initiation mechaninc

I thought we agreed on velvet dice.

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I would to try a variant, when spawning in depots is prohibited for attackers, but allowed for defenders (though is really needed to make more distance between depots and CPs). From one old topic  i put here picture about imaginable frontline, behind which wouldn't possible to put FMS, which would prevent spawning artificially in rear. Line would to change by capturing of every CPs...Maybe then is needed also turn off spawn delay.

 

5kkYO78.jpg

Edited by lemkeh
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On ‎11‎/‎12‎/‎2017 at 5:45 PM, Zebbeee said:

 

AOs came to fix the ninja-caps by allowing defenders to set up, but it further resulted in fortifications almost impossible to capture.  Despite forcing attackers to group up, the loss of OIC leadership due to the destruction of squad-based orbat resulted in a FPS-style game. WWIIol lost most of its community at that time.

 

 

Reading this is like listening to someone waxing lyrical about a particularly enjoyable dose of the clap.

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Introduce limited armor spawning from CPs, ( there has to be a reason why they have such huge openings)

It sure cut down camping an AB cause u can't camp all the CPS in town no matter how hard you try ( at least not anymore all the huge squads are gone)

And I'm not talking a AB worth of tanks but 1 or 2 per CP .

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One way to remove the effectiveness of lonewolfs, is to make the status of some capturable place (yours, enemy or contested), based at the amount of soldiers of side A and soldiers of side B there are this capturable place. This would happen automatically without timer.

This way ninjacapturing some place and leaving it, would allow to the other team to come to the place and easily ninjacapture it.

This also make sure you have to stay with your team there to make sure its not captured by a mass of enemies.

PS:I am not talking about area capture, this could come later and this idea can work under current capture rules.

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If you remove all spawning from depots, you effectively lock all spawning to the AB.

Would not that in effect remove any mobility from the defender whatsoever?

Roll in fast, point lots of automatic weapons on all AB exits from a distance and chew up anyone trying to leave to defend, then have your men capture at leisure?

Perhaps i missed something, but the above does not sound like a fun idea if you are defending, and not terribly realistic either considering how troops might garrison in a town as they technically did not have AB's at all.

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Regarding AB camping, take if from someone who has played since Day one and taken long breaks (just returning from one now), with the advent of man-portable AT weapons, it is MUCH harder to camp an AB with tanks than it used to be prior to depot spawning. Of course, having just returned, I'm not sure if man-portable AT weapons are available at early tiers.

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21 hours ago, merlin51 said:

If you remove all spawning from depots, you effectively lock all spawning to the AB.

Would not that in effect remove any mobility from the defender whatsoever?

Roll in fast, point lots of automatic weapons on all AB exits from a distance and chew up anyone trying to leave to defend, then have your men capture at leisure?

Perhaps i missed something, but the above does not sound like a fun idea if you are defending, and not terribly realistic either considering how troops might garrison in a town as they technically did not have AB's at all.

We have PPOs 

we have smoke

we have AT weapons 

We have defensive FMSs 

we (will) have backup fbs 

 

... if an attacker still manages to lock an AB long enough to capture it, defenders should definitely  .fallback 

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Depots could be limited to rifles only, to start with. 

It would also help to balance current battles which have been made harder for attackers (cf bunker capture). 

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I read this as ‘camp the barracks, take the town without a fight’

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56 minutes ago, Silky said:

I read this as ‘camp the barracks, take the town without a fight’

I really have to agree with Silky. I am a Navy player. I know what it's like to have to run through hell and yon to be able to try to get TO the docks to try to defend them. The enemy gets there and cuts it off and often it's almost impossible to save because the enemy knows exactly where you're coming from and you can't spawn there.

Personally, I have always hated the city-to city spawnables in that they allow an attacker to  capture ONE CP and then spawn inside the defender's perimeter. I have always hated warping for much the same reason.

I believe that getting rid of depot spawning would make town capture ridiculously easy and promote major AB campfests.  Defensive PPOs are suggested, but they have to come from the AB or from a rear town FB. On that topic, I think it would be ridiculously hard to defend a town solely from its rear FB. Imagine once the attacker gets inside the bunker and they cut it. That makes it hard enough to try to retake, if you CAN spawn from depots. If you had to try to respawn from FMSs or run from a rear FB?

The proposed system would rely heavily on having enough defenders to run missions to create FMSs from the AB and from a rear FB. In many attacks, it's hard enough to get 2 or 3 FMSs up an running. For defense, it would likely be even harder. And if the AO starts to grow stale and the FMS mission leaders leave? Those spawn points disappear, leaving defenders with even less spawnables. One good point about depots is that they do not rely on players, who might just decide to log out at any time.

I would happily support a variation where linking depots were no longer spawnables for units not in the town on either side, and where warpables go the way of the dodo.
 

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I have experimented terrible camping situations in 2002-2003, I have also lead my squad to camp ABs. I don’t want it to happen that way neither.

today we have plenty of tools that allows to counter it (ews, AO, ... see list above).

But you all miss the main point of the idea : I suggest to introduce a RESPAWN at depots for dead players. 

As soon as you manage to move out of AB you can hold strong without any FMS! Same for heavy atg, tanks... that should respawn at the closest depot.

This Forces a true area control on both sides. Still requiring a first safe ride from AB.

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This seems really nonsensical to me. It feels like an arbitrary & convoluted system trying to solve a much more direct set of problems.

For most of our game mechanics, there are logical explanations for them as abstractions. For example, EWS/AWS is an abstraction of intelligence services + reports by nearby civilians (no attack) or servicemen (ongoing attack).

Restricting the ability to spawn at cps but allowing the ability to respawn at cps is something I have a really hard time trying to logically justify. It's something I imagine explaining to a new player and I can only really see them either saying "that's weird" or asking "why would they do that?"

 

CPs themselves serve as supply links and are abstracted as being garrisons of soldiers and equipment dispersed from the local army base. We could take away the garrison bit, but that's an all-or-nothing kind of deal and opens us up to the issues previously stated.

 

Only rifles/other restricted equipment sets at CPs seem a bit much, but that at least makes a lot more sense (more sophisticated military equipment would be stored at the army base armory/central depot/etc.).

Edited by chaoswzkd

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