delems

Screwed again.

51 posts in this topic

And again, 1 bomber with 1 bomb screws over 30 players fun by destroying the MS.

Why is ea allowed to destroy FMS?

Need to fix the terrible imbalance in the air game.

 

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There has to be some destroy-able point - If they weren't destroy-able everyone would be complaining about that.   There are things that can be done to make it harder for air to line up and bomb the FMS.  

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no ea should be able to take out FMS, not without like 50 direct bomb hits.

They can mark, recon, strafe etc. - but not destroy;  ground units should be required to do that.

Squad just quit for the day - air imbalance is terrible.

 

This seems duplicate - can remove this one - use the RUINED one.

 

Edited by delems

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5 minutes ago, delems said:

no ea should be able to take out FMS, not without like 50 direct bomb hits.

They can mark, recon, strafe etc. - but not destroy;  ground units should be required to do that.

Squad just quit for the day - air imbalance is terrible.

50 bomb hits would be like a million satchels (ok probably less, but I'm not doing the math)... so you're advocating for un-destroy-able FMS?

 

and we're stuck with this one - I already got rid of the other. 

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by ea, yes.

Not by ground units.

The problem is axis has no defense against allied air, our AA is 0.25 KD;  allies at least is 0.75.

ea takes out every PPO in 100m radius - fighters strafe MS and they are gone? 

 

Edited by delems

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cumulative damage = cumulative damage   

As soon as we start fiddling with bomb A doing X amount to this, and Y amount to that it'll go haywire quick. 

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9 minutes ago, delems said:

no ea should be able to take out FMS, not without like 50 direct bomb hits.

That is a bit too much dont you think?

Maybe upping bomb damage to 2, possibly maybe 3, at 50 though that's kind of approaching what i would expect for an FB takedown by air?
Thats like 8 to 12 satchels to take down 1 FM mind you

How come no AA defense at FM?
Night before last, when there was yellow squares all over the map, we had AA guns at the FMs, at least the ones that weren't right up against the towns.
It helped a lot, never quite got the close armor support going but...

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Simply allow no ea to remove FMS.

Fixes a lot of the problems.

*** How come no AA defense at FMS?

Did you not read?   axis light AA is 0.25 KD.  allied at least is 0.75.

 

Edited by delems

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There are various ways of looking at this problem: It could be, as delems asserts, that FMS's are "too easily destroyed by EA". Or it could be that there are just too many aircraft. Or that it's too easy for a ground players to respawn quickly as a pilot and return to the FMS he couldn't get near by ground means, and kill it. Or that the whole model of FMS's and FB's having a fixed and finite damage-threshold is capable of improvement. Or Delems needs to adjust his tactics in terms of numbers of FMS's set-up.

If one assumes that the FMS, like the FB represents "holding" a particular bit of real-estate, then it would be reasonable for that to have a light damage threshold to start with - ie you've but a tenuous hold on that real-estate - but as more and more people spawn from it, it gets harder and harder to kill, unless voluntarily closed by the ML because you've now camped it seven ways to Sunday. This model would relate the damage threshold to the number of players who have spawned from an FB or FMS since the 1st mission was placed. So, a low aircraft might successfully bomb the FMS early on, but if he were to try an hour later - he might struggle almost no matter how much he were to bomb it.

I'm not saying that the paragraph above is necessarily a good idea or solution, merely that there are different ways of looking at a particular problem, and possibly several ways of solving it.

Edited by fidd

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1 minute ago, delems said:

Simply allow no ea to remove FMS.

Fixes a lot of the problems.

I don't think that fixes anything really?

It kind of bandaids over the fact we kind of fall short in doing to cooperative combined arms thing a lot, but that probably is not a good thing really to hard code bandaids.
Then we are stuck with them.


It just removes more of air's ability to effect the ground war, to what end? relegate them to just RDP and furballing?
Air has no purpose really other than supporting the ground war, i mean in a reality sense.
Air fighting air solely for the sake of fighting air has no purpose in a war except perhaps to waste fuel and materials up in the sky?
So if you remove all of air's ability to directly affect ground, what is the point of air at all?
Plenty of other games offer a furball


In all honesty, i think the biggest problem with FMs is us, ourselves.
Unless you are the rifleman we don't take them all that seriously, and even the rifleman only takes it half serious, just the part that shortens his run to town.
We tend to not support and not defend them and just try to plop them down as close to the objective as we can and then just leave them at that.
And then we get upset when something happens to them.

Why can't we send out a truck with some bofors in tow, and a couple armored escorts and treat it as an important checkpoint worth keeping alive rather than something disposable?
And spawn the Flak30's, see DB7/Havoc switch to AP and hit it right in the nose, the HE may not be doing so hot, but the db7 aint AP bullet proof, (Cant be, even an MP40 perforates the pilot from the front through the nose) so let him choke on a little bit of crew 1 hit in head, he has to line up and come on straight in order to bomb.

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1 hour ago, B2K said:

cumulative damage = cumulative damage   

As soon as we start fiddling with bomb A doing X amount to this, and Y amount to that it'll go haywire quick. 

Well you should probably figure something out instead of throwing up your hands, because you got maybe 2-3 halfway decent places for players to spawn at on the entire server during prime time, and for some reason you continue to allow players to solo the spawns. Maybe if bombers and aircraft in general were somewhat valuable and realistic rather than there being five air brigades stacked at the closest AF. If you're a pilot and playing for the map there's no reason not to immediately jettision/suicide in to a FMS because a bomber is worth far less than a good spawn.

 

You guys got to get it through your heads that lower game activity on your server does not make a more appealing game or more subs.

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Wait till the tank busters get in, then Air will definately be getting some play.

 

Why not spawn a Flak and guard the FMS?

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*** It just removes more of air's ability to effect the ground war

Uh, they can mark, strafe, and bomb; killing ei and armor; just not taking out the FMS.

 

*** Why can't we send out a truck with some bofors in tow

In case you don't know, axis can't tow bofors with truck........  and our HT slow and loud as can be; and doesn't glide nicely for 2000m.

 

*** So if you remove all of air's ability to directly affect ground

A complete and false premise.  Air can do lots for ground support w/o having to destroy MS with 1 pass.

 

*** We tend to not support and not defend them

We had some 20+ players there, including multiple ATGs - which were killing their ACs and ATGs.

Our squad (had 18 on at the time) was half just securing ZOC, other half assaulting CPs.

 

***Try supporting a FMS with a 20mm axis AA gun sometime.........

Can you not read the 0.25 KD against bombers ?  How about you come over and sit in a flak 30 for a few days at FMS and shoot at bomber...........

 

We had 18 online and over 300 in squad; now we have 4 online and 250 in squad.

And we are trying to get an AA section in our squad, but just not that many players on as you know.

Hard enough to get a ZOC team, ATG team and assault team (which we had).

I'd say we did DAMN good job organizing our squad for that assault, considering the negligible tools we have to help us - not like a lot of squad support ya know.

 

But you're right I guess; we just need to get and then organize some 23+ players, for our ZOC team, ATG team, assault team and AA team next time.....

 

Edited by delems

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You know what I want? I want trucks that can rush to town dumping troops at full speed without injuries. That would be exciting.

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FMS should be set up so that they aren't readily visible from the air---and they should be guarded against whatever one fears might take it out.  To blame the game doesn't seem quite right.

 

 

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Just now, delems said:

Uh, they can mark, strafe, and bomb; killing ei and armor; just not taking out the FMS.

do you fly?
Try marking in flight, you may have more luck than i, but by the time i get the map stopped to actually mark it

They are supposed to take out things like FMs, they really should be able to affect FB's, by large quantity of bombs of course.
They should really be able to locally mess up supply by taking out fuel and ammo dumps and things like that as well.

 

30 minutes ago, delems said:

In case you don't know, axis can't tow bofors with truck........  and our HT slow and loud as can be; and doesn't glide nicely for 2000m.

Now ya know darned well i was driving one the other night, you were playing with me.
Eh that doesnt sound right :(
You were in the vicinity. i was towing myself out, david01 was screaming about snow over and over, dropped my bofors and set up FM.
Got laughed at for building an adhoc AA pit for the bofors but hey, it kept me alive for a bit.
Did i mention i really suck with the bofors?

 

39 minutes ago, delems said:

A complete and false premise.  Air can do lots for ground support w/o having to destroy MS with 1 pass.

I said 2 maybe 3 bombs maybe, 50 is too many, 50 or 60 is like what we should be dropping on FB's, if we ever get that back again.
They can hunt tanks, yea that is useful in a tactical sense, but it gives them no strategic things to do.
Straffing EI, it's kind of a waste of air, it's kind of like flying around trying to attack ants with a bb gun.

 

50 minutes ago, delems said:

Our squad (had 18 on at the time) was half just securing ZOC, other half assaulting CPs.

Well, that's a problem kinda.
Not knocking your squad, hell my squad is nothing but greenbeans most of whom dont talk, at least not english, they could all be within 100m of each other and still be alone.
Just saying too split up for the numbers present, hard to play both ends of the field with 18 people.
It's amazing in this game how fast 18 people suddenly is like nothing where in a much smaller game it's like a ton.

I know what the flak30 does, you forget i do use the thing, sometimes as a mini PZII whihc probably isnt the brightest thing to so with it...
But you got a squad, a functional one, get a few guys on them, all on the same target, thats where squads are great cause they can coordinate like that where genpop really kind of does not. 
Even OldZeke doesnt survive a 20mm to the head when 4 guys are converging on his forehead.

Point though, pick one, there is only so much you can do with a given number of people, so pick one.
I'm betting your 18 could have made the FM one very deadly place to approach from ground or air.

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1 hour ago, Sudden said:

You know what I want? I want trucks that can rush to town dumping troops at full speed without injuries. That would be exciting.

? We had that.
Well aside from the injuries part.
Trucks rushing top speed to the bunker for hot drop.
New driver, hasnt tested the brakes yet, broke too late, 22 dead EI float through wall

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10 hours ago, B2K said:

cumulative damage = cumulative damage   

As soon as we start fiddling with bomb A doing X amount to this, and Y amount to that it'll go haywire quick. 

Ain't THAT the truth!

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Maybe it has more to do with the lack of FMSs?

When the incentive is to wait for an FMS to go up, because it takes a long time to make it happen, less people put them up, and one bomber can drop the one FMS to an attack.

But really, this thread speaks to a bigger issue that hasn't been addressed, ever.

The Allies have two fast medium bombers that carry 8 heavy bombs and the Acis have ONE that hold as much -but it can't do big loops and then fly off at 400km/h.

 

Do17s!!!!

 

Edited by vasduten1

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is the RAF 20mm bug still in? they can take out 2-6 depending on ammo.

it's easy as heck too, only need 1 glancing pass and it's down.

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13 minutes ago, major0noob said:

is the RAF 20mm bug still in? they can take out 2-6 depending on ammo.

it's easy as heck too, only need 1 glancing pass and it's down.

A FMS takes approximately 120 20mm cannon rounds from Allied or Axis aircraft to take it down, it takes the same number from repeated tests with both BF110 20mm and hurri2c 20mm. If you can document it taking less on a undamaged FMS then that will be checked again but 1st understand that FMS take accumulative damage. 1 sap does 25% damage, 1 bomb does 25% damage. Most all HE above grenade level does some amount of damage. FMS does not "heal" or regenerate like factories, fbs and bridges so damage continues to build. 

So if a FMS has already been hit by bofors, tank HE  etc then yea a squirt of aircraft 20mm, Allied or Axis can take it the rest of the way to destroyed.

It's ticketed but to fix anything concerning it pre HE audit would have to be redone again after the HE audit is finished. Double work and time/resources  wasted.

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from my testing a few months ago:

On 2/27/2017 at 9:00 AM, major0noob said:

edit: did some offline testing.

 

RAF 20mm's need 100 to drop them (1400 BB's drop it to 85)

FAF 20mm's need 350 to drop them  (.50's do nothing)

LW 20mm's need 300 to drop them (BB's do nothing)

 

Serman 75mm HE needs 46 to drop them

 

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1 hour ago, OldZeke said:

A FMS takes approximately 120 20mm cannon rounds from Allied or Axis aircraft to take it down, it takes the same number from repeated tests with both BF110 20mm and hurri2c 20mm.

1 sap does 25% damage, 1 bomb does 25% damage. 

So if a FMS has already been hit by bofors, tank HE  etc then yea a squirt of aircraft 20mm, Allied or Axis can take it the rest of the way to destroyed.

Does anyone see a gameplay problem with a spitfire IIb being a better ground support aircraft than a stuka?

Edited by david01

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1 hour ago, OldZeke said:

1 bomb does 25% damage

Bombs are not created equal, right?  Which specific bomb are you referring to?  The Axis 250kg or 50kg, or the British 40lb, 250lb, or 500lb, or the American 100kg or 200kg bombs?  Afaik, no 2 bomb types are identical.  

 

An even better answer would be if you could give us the joule threshold and a table of all the joule values for the various explosives.  

Edited by Capco

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3 minutes ago, Capco said:

Bombs are not created equal, right?  Which specific bomb are you referring to?  The Axis 250kg or 50kg, or the British 40lb, 250lb, or 500lb, or the American 100kg or 200kg bombs?  Afaik, no 2 bomb types are identical.  

 

An even better answer would be if we had the joule threshold and a table of all the joule values for the various explosives.  

As far as a fms is concerned a bomb is a bomb. it takes 4 40# blen1 bombs or 4 250kg axis bombs. FMS/all PPOs had to have a special ruleset as to damage, totally different from vehicles and other things in game.

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