lemkeh

Infantry against aircrafts.

25 posts in this topic

In game was created an impression, that infantry was almost powerless against aircrafts in ww2. Also the game engine does not allow to use in game for infantry some very useful in-real-life features, such as dense cover from forest from above, different trenches with various depths etc.

We even cant use the camouflage net, which dont seems to have tehnical obstacles.

But soldiers in WW2 not only used such elements to hide, but also used its available weapons to hunt enemy aircraft. Here is some pictures about using of AT-rifles to shoot enemy aircrafts.

yRBbbdj.jpg

And here some schematics from training manual.

JDjEAEG.jpg

Now. As you see, there is mostly used trenches, which are almost impossible with current game engine. But exists also other variants. Firstly making of an appropriate PPO - PPO for using weapon to firing at high-flying targets. This might be some kind of wood log, which can be used for a prop. I think, such PPO might be done by soldier itself and also by engineer, but engineer will made it twice faster.

Such a PPO would be very useful in the field, and not only there.
And secondly. I suggest to allow for AT-soldiers also to deploy its weapon on the ruins, fences, barricades, small bare trees etc. and on much higher degree, than currently. To have the ability to shoot the aircrafts.

Of course, this all also applies to machinegun-soldiers.

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Some "AT rifles" were automatic.

This gun:

Nimbus20mm_zpsoqxbm8hq.jpg

...also had a kit that allowed it to be mounted this way:

Nimbus20mm3_zpsm04jmahp.jpg

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Yes, in ww2 was also automatic variants. Here also some example - Finnish 20 mm Anti tank-rifle L-39 "Elephant gun". Was semi-automatic and on picture also in an antiaircraft rifle role.

9RZXy47.jpg

 

Later, when soviet tanks became more heavy and with thick armor, they became more obsolete in role ATR. Therefore was invented next variant of it - 20 mm antiaircraft rifle L-39/44 (20 it kiv/39-44), which was fully automatic (iirc, selective fire) and used mostly against aircrafts.

Edited by lemkeh

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You mean to say that you have never shot at and hit EA using LMG deployed skywards against berm, log, rubble, roof or windowsill? 

Everything you describe as missing is eminently present and possible, including ATRs in the AA role. While we don’t have trenches we do have perfectly adequate slopes and frontal cover.

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When LMGs first came out you could deploy them on the old bunker entrances and actually point them skyward. The traverse got limited sometime later. I wish they would have kept it in. LMGs actually made decent AA guns. 

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On 12/27/2017 at 4:07 AM, Bmbm said:

You mean to say that you have never shot at and hit EA using LMG deployed skywards against berm, log, rubble, roof or windowsill? 

Everything you describe as missing is eminently present and possible, including ATRs in the AA role. While we don’t have trenches we do have perfectly adequate slopes and frontal cover.

What good does frontal cover provide against air quake? None. Even the tree tops provide no cover, moderate concealment, sure, but no cover at all. How many planes that you “damaged” were driven off or even moderately effected by your pittance of ground fire? Hell I have put round after round of 40mm into havocs and DB7 only to see them do loops and continue with their AB suppression. Ground fire is a joke and to say it’s anyrhing but is a dilusion. Bottom line it isn’t some miracle ground unit that will effect anything in the air. The crap damage models and flight models of the planes is what needs fixed. Enemy air has no fear of ground units at all, period.

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On 12/27/2017 at 4:07 AM, Bmbm said:

You mean to say that you have never shot at and hit EA using LMG deployed skywards against berm, log, rubble, roof or windowsill? 

Everything you describe as missing is eminently present and possible, including ATRs in the AA role. While we don’t have trenches we do have perfectly adequate slopes and frontal cover.

What the game doesn't have is realistically functional AA sight-pictures to allow target capture with wide angle vision (maybe 0.75X magnification, because of the way the game's vision works), switchable for proper cartwheel-sight aiming with vision-concentration (maybe 1.5x).

But that's not news, given that the cartwheel sights don't work accurately on any of the other, heavier-caliber AA guns either.

Presumably it's even more of a fantasy to think that the heavier guns' predictive sights might someday be modeled.

Vickers K:

Vickers%20K%20gun%201200%20rpm%2096%20ro

FM 24/29:

Specialanti-airsightisattachedtothisFM24

MG 34:

AAtripodphoto-b151.jpg

MG 34:

photo-36.jpg

Bren:

NA004150.jpg

Edited by jwilly

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On 12/27/2017 at 4:07 AM, Bmbm said:

You mean to say that you have never shot at and hit EA using LMG deployed skywards against berm, log, rubble, roof or windowsill?

 

Oct 08 2017 14:38 kolbfitz (Heinkel) killed by Ryman...with a grease gun.  :)

 

 

 

-Irish

 

 

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Haha that video is so BS. The way damage is recorded all he had to do was just hit the damn thing. I have gotten kill credits on planes using a pistol even though the plane continued on I simply was the last one to damage it before it crashed not the cause of his death.

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Ive shot down over 25 planes with a rifle and was the cause of there death viper. Had a bunch of squadies as well gaurding an fb allies wanted bad everytime a enemy plane flew over we used the old russian east front method everyone shoot, we brought down a few with just rifles.

Doesnt matter what anyone says your gunna just blame something or other or tell everyone there full of bs.

S!

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 Im not going to tell everybody they are full of BS or blame it on something or other (good you assume my future friggin replies, got any psychic insight on lottery numbers creskin?) Just that video. I’m saying EA have no fear of the anti air we currently have in the game, unless that was too tough to gather from my post where I said enemy air had no fear of ground fire. I can type it again if you still aren’t clear what I said.

Edited by viper69
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While I've only managed to down enemy aircraft twice with an smg (first being in that video shared by Irish), it is not something I would recommend as a go to option for anti-air. I rely on actual AA weaponry or use LMG's as my go to method. 

 

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Browning .50 water cooled:

Browning%20.50%20water%20cooled_zps50wgk

Developmental Hotchkiss 13.2mm on all-terrain infantry carriage:

French132mmHotchkissonfieldmount.jpg

 

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1 hour ago, ryman89 said:

While I've only managed to down enemy aircraft twice with an smg (first being in that video shared by Irish), it is not something I would recommend as a go to option for anti-air. I rely on actual AA weaponry or use LMG's as my go to method. 

 

Got news for u that 111 was fkd already

 

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This would make the perfect PPO for LMG class since they're kind of the ones doing AA stuff for infantry for the most part. Small arms fire is kind of a joke, and it's funny that AI can use their LMGs on aircraft but us players cannot.

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10 minutes ago, knucks said:

This would make the perfect PPO for LMG class since they're kind of the ones doing AA stuff for infantry for the most part. Small arms fire is kind of a joke, and it's funny that AI can use their LMGs on aircraft but us players cannot.

Oh you can, sometimes its hard finding a suitable deployment, and your traverse is limited.
Mostly you get a bunch of non fatal hits though, or me a bunch of misses

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5 hours ago, viper69 said:

Haha that video is so BS. The way damage is recorded all he had to do was just hit the damn thing. I have gotten kill credits on planes using a pistol even though the plane continued on I simply was the last one to damage it before it crashed not the cause of his death.

 

I've killed a couple undamaged enemy planes with small arms, when no one else was firing at them.  It's far from impossible.  In fact, during the war, many British units had a couple bolt action rifles assigned to them, even when everyone had already transitioned to semiautomatic.  The bolt action rifles were used as anti aircraft weapons against low flying ground attack aircraft.

 

 

 

-Irish

 

 

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2 hours ago, odonovan1 said:

 

I've killed a couple undamaged enemy planes with small arms, when no one else was firing at them.  It's far from impossible.  In fact, during the war, many British units had a couple bolt action rifles assigned to them, even when everyone had already transitioned to semiautomatic.  The bolt action rifles were used as anti aircraft weapons against low flying ground attack aircraft.

 

 

 

-Irish

 

 

I understand that units in WW2 and WW1 shot down planes with rifles. Again my point in case you missed it again is that the weapons we have don’t instill any kind of hesitation or fear on the air guys. When a 40mm round detonated on a plane and it flies away instead of lawn darting, you can see my skepticism when people like yourself and a few others simply say “point your bolt action rifles at them and shoot” you guys downing planes with bolt actions is fine and I’m sure it happens but so does winning the lottery and banging out a super model. Just rarely and not to everyone trying. Because again if you missed it, the damage model and or hit registry is effed completely up. I mean FFS in order to kill a crew member of a gun you shoot him in the [censored] instead of the head for it to register.

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It was well understood in the early days that CRS had intentionally minimized the damage done by AA, and AA's gunsight functionality, so as to make AA minimally effective. The founders came from air warfare games and wanted to have a highly marketable, fun ground-attack game here...and fun means lots of readily spotted ground targets for air players to kill, and high survivability doing so. Realism was totally not the goal. Talk of realism was just marketing.

That tension continues. Scotsman advocated actual realistic ordnance functionality as a starting point, and realism in all other modeled game-aspects. That turned out to not be what was wanted.

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18 minutes ago, jwilly said:

It was well understood in the early days that CRS had intentionally minimized the damage done by AA, and AA's gunsight functionality, so as to make AA minimally effective. The founders came from air warfare games and wanted to have a highly marketable, fun ground-attack game here...and fun means lots of readily spotted ground targets for air players to kill, and high survivability doing so. Realism was totally not the goal. Talk of realism was just marketing.

That tension continues. Scotsman advocated actual realistic ordnance functionality as a starting point, and realism in all other modeled game-aspects. That turned out to not be what was wanted.

Yeah air quake is only fun for the flyers. It’s no fun for anyone especially the new people who don’t understand how easy it is to see an infantryman from the air and that giant FB/AB from the air you don’t even need to be good at bombing to kill multiple targets and now they are talking auditing HE to be better. Yet the damage models of planes is left to be everyone is flying aerobatic stirmoviks. 

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How many tiers of fighters do we have now? How many tiers of fight bombers? 

And we're stuck with the same old AA that we started with 15 years+ ago LOL. 

CRS doesn't want the pilots to fear the ground, so they don't add anything for us, and dont say SPAA LOL, it's the same gun for the Allies or worse for the Germans...

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5 minutes ago, Mosizlak said:

How many tiers of fighters do we have now? How many tiers of fight bombers? 

And we're stuck with the same old AA that we started with 15 years+ ago LOL. 

CRS doesn't want the pilots to fear the ground, so they don't add anything for us, and dont say SPAA LOL, it's the same gun for the Allies or worse for the Germans...

Exactly.  The slow ROF coupled with the crap tastic damage model make being a ground pounder like shooting ducks in a pond. Also the hyper aerobatic bombers also needs addressed. Is there a wing load stress model? Would be really nice to have some quad AA or dual bofors, something.

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All that's needed is accurate gunsights and realistic vision-ability, and realistic damage.

A single 40mm hit anywhere on any modeled aircraft should bring it down immediately.

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2 hours ago, jwilly said:

All that's needed is accurate gunsights and realistic vision-ability, and realistic damage.

A single 40mm hit anywhere on any modeled aircraft should bring it down immediately.

Exactly. 

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