delems

88 still worthless

157 posts in this topic

Well, tried my hand at a 88. I do that every 2 years or so to remind me why I never play it.

1) It moves far to slow - push speed needs to double at least.

2) Can't depress gun barrel, setup on hill, can't even hit the sea or anything in front of you.

Really sad the most iconic weapon of WWII is mostly useless; shameful.

Despawning, I'll forget about this and try it again in 2 more years. :(

 

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Well 16,325 lbs it a wee bit hard to push fast, easier to get an HT
Nudge just a wee bit so its pointing a little bit down hill. 88 has a parking brake, dont forget it when nudging down hill wise. (Or you wind up at bottom of hill much fast)

If i see you on later, i'll tow you

 

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A lot of people here claim it's a wonder weapon. 

Sure, when you find that perfect spot you can rack up a stupid amount of kills, except we don't fight every battle in Haybes. 

Most of the times you tow yourself out and die to an EI that hears your halftrack from 1.5k away. Once they hear you, they track you down and kill you. I know, I used to do it from both sides. 

The other times you get a few shots off then the ever present allied lawn mowing aircraft just strafe you/bomb you. 

I'd trade every 88 in tier0 for an equal amount of pak38s in a heart beat. 

The things you mentioned also make it pretty useless: You can't set up on the top of a hill because you can't depress the barrel far enough to fire at the targets. You have to set up on the hill slope which makes you almost impossible to move again and makes you 100x more apt to be seen and killed. 

The long range killing power you possess is rendered pretty much useless in most conditions ingame. Trees and bushes block most towns. 

Pak38/40 all the way. Even pak36 if you are sneaky and know where to shoot. 

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*** Nudge just a wee bit so its pointing a little bit down hill

Problem with this is you can't back out of danger and you are completely exposed.

The whole idea is to setup BEHIND the hill so you hull down so to speak and fire over the top.

 

*** Well 16,325 lbs it a wee bit hard to push fast

Agree, but nearly every other weapon in this game can be used solo - not so with the 88; requires 2 people.

Rendering it useless most of the time.  Doubling the speed might make it a tad more 1 person friendly, but not even sure that would work.

 

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Towed guns should have always been tied to a truck from the start...they should spawn as a unit with multiple crew positions so that the truck driver can switch to the gun position, deploy and shoot...make the deploy and un-deploy process relatively slow (like building an FMS) so that you don't have insta spawn

This would have solved the issue of pushing guns by hand, which should be impossible except for the lightest guns and even then only with minimal ammo available

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Its historically accurate elevation is -3 to 85 degrees. Live with it, and moderate your expectations accordingly. 

If you play alone you die alone, usually real quick - as you should. Yammering about that will get you nowhere.

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5 hours ago, delems said:

not so with the 88; requires 2 people.

in total honesty, 2 people, you are doing it wrong, that aint how Plastic and his guys ran them, and they used to devastate with them.
There was a reason they did not loose too many 88's, and there was more than 2 people.


You can push the 88 almost anyplace, as you already know it is like watching paint dry, but you can push it up the side of the alps if you really want to, which is probably pretty good for for an 8 ton gun.

bofors comes in a close 2nd, and then maybe the 17pdr? toss up between it and the 76mm
none are a joy to push

5 hours ago, delems said:

The whole idea is to setup BEHIND the hill so you hull down so to speak and fire over the top.

That's kind of hard with the 88, it did not have much depression in real life, and it doesn't have a lot of round drop either.

I looked for you but think it was too late by the time i got back home accident on way made it take longer

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2 hours ago, chry said:

Towed guns should have always been tied to a truck from the start...they should spawn as a unit with multiple crew positions so that the truck driver can switch to the gun position, deploy and shoot...make the deploy and un-deploy process relatively slow (like building an FMS) so that you don't have insta spawn

This would have solved the issue of pushing guns by hand, which should be impossible except for the lightest guns and even then only with minimal ammo available

 i think no, that would have been hated 3 minutes after it began
I dont think anyone wants a big old truck sticking out saying here sits an atg! right over here come and get it!

It's hard enough for an atg to stay alive with out being perma bolted to the truck
Which you wont be able to move away from if the truck and the atg are a unit.

And depending on what atg you are talking about, you do have near instant deployment (Insta Spawn??)
pak 36, mle 1934, m3, guns like those they didnt spend much time deploying at all.
Even the bigger pak guns or the 17pdr, they didnt spend a terrible amount of time doing the actual deploying, and the 88 already spends enough game time getting deployed. 

And 88s generally had 8 people, sometimes more.
They could move the thing around by hand, not very fast but they could move it.

And it's all great to say 0 ammo minimal ammo, except NOBODY is going to come bring ammo
You arent going to run around delivering ammo to everyone all day, neither is anyone else, all you will have is a bunch of guys who spent X amount of time getting the gun to where it goes only to have nobody feel like bringing any ammo, then we do have atg's you cant use

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baby pak killed my gunner/engine, Matty gunner go figure, baby pak is now known as the PAK88, so stop your whining CRS fixed it for ya'z...

I say CRS why don't ya'z just give Allies Crusaders only, that way Axis will have an easier time, can't have all these complicated things happening to our lederhosen comrades, the shame of it all.

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1 hour ago, bus0 said:

baby pak killed my gunner/engine, Matty gunner go figure, baby pak is now known as the PAK88, so stop your whining CRS fixed it for ya'z...

I say CRS why don't ya'z just give Allies Crusaders only, that way Axis will have an easier time, can't have all these complicated things happening to our lederhosen comrades, the shame of it all.

U might want to play the Lotto or on 2nd thought maybe not cause that's pretty much unheard of. Especially when I have seen a 4d, 3b and a 3F pound the Sh!+ out of a Matilda and finally after rough estimate 3min of said pounding he finally stopped shooting and went up in flames. Flukes like that do happen , I made a S76 smoke with pak36 and was stunned from the front. I must have hit a thin spot or there was a armor leak , only managed to do that once and never again ( but in general I don't shoot at them either unless I'm real close and they show their sap spot then I might give it a try and hope for the best)

 

Back to topic....

The 88 died the day CRS decided to take all points away from the guys that towed you into battle, thus used to be one of the easiest way to earn rank and learn all the sounds of the battlefield to boot , not only that but you could watch a battle and learn from that too.

Another killer was the insta soldier out of a box aka the FRU , not only did it kill most if the ATG play but the Armor guys left in bunches too. 

The lack of Bomber targets and things for fighters to do also did not help. Most of the times all the Airboys can do is attack ground targets cause there is just not enough to do for them.

The 88 used to be an awesome tool but nowadays even if you get a tow survival is pretty short. You need a dedicated guy that is willing to tow ya and stay with ya and not mind watching the battle while you have fun if you do want to get moved. The Ammo boxes did help so that the other guy can get back into the fight. The dismantling of the Squads ( even that they still exist in game) have a lot to do with it too. 

Before HC was setting AOs you saw a lot more 88 in the field , EWS did not help much either ( I do understand why it was implemented ) but setting up 88s ,before the battle would start would give the guy that towed at least a chance to get into the fight too and not just haul someone around. 

Also hauling an 88 around getting into position just to have HC pull the AO did put a damper on the whole thing too. 

Those are just my opinions and they do not reflect any other players opinion, but if they do give me a LIKE , :)

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Hi,

How about making the 88 into an SPG and remove or greatly reduce the pretty much obsolete towed/pushed 88?

Also, a Truck Audio Audit or should I say a Complete Audio Overhaul Audit might be something worth moving onto the front burner for this iteration of WWII Online. Being that Sound is such a critical element of this game.

S!

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6 hours ago, merlin51 said:

in total honesty, 2 people, you are doing it wrong, that aint how Plastic and his guys ran them, and they used to devastate with them.
There was a reason they did not loose too many 88's, and there was more than 2 people.


You can push the 88 almost anyplace, as you already know it is like watching paint dry, but you can push it up the side of the alps if you really want to, which is probably pretty good for for an 8 ton gun.

bofors comes in a close 2nd, and then maybe the 17pdr? toss up between it and the 76mm
none are a joy to push

That's kind of hard with the 88, it did not have much depression in real life, and it doesn't have a lot of round drop either.

I looked for you but think it was too late by the time i got back home accident on way made it take longer

The 17pdr, 76 ATG, and 88 have the same push speed... IIRC and I also believe the pak40 pushes the same. Been awhile since I pushed one but I remember it being slow.  They are all the same or so close you cannot really tell a difference.  Second, the 88 in reverse will go back up a hill but at like 1/4 its push speed.  The 17pdr I have yet to get back up a hill. I cant even get it to go over a small berm. I can get the M5 over a very small berm but its extremely difficult... and I know you can get the pak40 into the bush and tree lines with the small berms because I have killed many located in those areas. As for the complaints about the 88 being heard because of the HT.. well you cannot hear the HT past 1.5k and the 88 has an effective range of about 2.6k in the game though its hard to hit anything at that range, 1.6k and they are rather effective. Not laser like but 1.6k is a long distance and you can rule the battlefield at that distance especially in T0-T1 - T2 it get more difficult.  If anything - the ATGs should get a speed boost.  I am not exactly on board with upping the 88 speed.

88 - 16k lbs

17pdr - 6.7k lbs

M5 - 4.8k lbs

Pak40 - 3.1k lbs

 

EDIT:  As for complaints about air and infantry killing you off - ALL atgs get bombed, straffed, and hunted by infantry. I find no difference in vulnerability in any of the ATGs with an exception the small ones because you can shoot and somewhat scoot.

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55 minutes ago, stonecomet said:

How about making the 88 into an SPG

they did, its called the PZVI ausf E Tiger I :) 

 

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10 minutes ago, merlin51 said:

they did, its called the PZVI ausf E Tiger I :) 

 

They did have a 88 as a SPG. However IIRC it only had the ability to fire forward and with in a 20^ traverse right or left.. It had horrible recoil effects and any greater traverse could roll the SPG.  It was discontinued as a failure.... though I do find your response rather funny.. it is ironic and somewhat smug, lol.  Reminds me of the day I complained about the 2pdr atg in the forums when I first started playing and someone said - "I know you are new, but what about the 88?".  I felt like an idiot because I complained without thinking beyond the 2pdr.

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5 minutes ago, stankyus said:

88 - 16k lbs

17pdr - 6.7k lbs

M5 - 4.8k lbs

Pak40 - 3.1k lbs

Add in the Bofors at something like 11,000 pounds on carriage
some heavy stuff we be pushin.

While i dont know that i would speed the 88 or the bofors up, i also do not know that i would speed up the other atg's either.
Bofors and 88 are both on steerable 4 wheel carriages so while considerably heavier are on a better rolling platform, so it probably all works out in the end.

9 minutes ago, stankyus said:

The 17pdr I have yet to get back up a hill.

It will, you gotta tic-tac.
And be careful not to tip over.

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Who care about push speed?

 

Lets talk about grouping on ALL of them.

It sucks.

 

No way any army would approve of an anti tank cannon that couldn't hold a 2.5X2M group at 1000M, and in reality these guns had 100% accuracy at that range.

No, they didn't have a randomizer(tm) attached to the end of the barrel to disperse shots in a 4MX4M area.

 

No, the pak36s didn't swing wildly out of control every time you fired them.

 

No, the Allied counterparts weren't as chitty either, but they are in our game.

 

WHEN?

When will the HE/KE audit be in?

 

 

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6 hours ago, bmbm said:

Its historically accurate elevation is -3 to 85 degrees. Live with it, and moderate your expectations accordingly. 

If you play alone you die alone, usually real quick - as you should. Yammering about that will get you nowhere.

Except historically speaking I could dig into the hill to level out the gun so I have a shot just over the top of the hill. Tried that in WWII Online lately?

Historically speaking the M10 zoom was less then on the sights we have in game. Yet nobody wanted to “deal with it”.

Spare me your historical argument hypocrisy. 

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12 hours ago, moe5000 said:

A lot of people here claim it's a wonder weapon. 

Sure, when you find that perfect spot you can rack up a stupid amount of kills, except we don't fight every battle in Haybes. 

Most of the times you tow yourself out and die to an EI that hears your halftrack from 1.5k away. Once they hear you, they track you down and kill you. I know, I used to do it from both sides. 

The other times you get a few shots off then the ever present allied lawn mowing aircraft just strafe you/bomb you. 

I'd trade every 88 in tier0 for an equal amount of pak38s in a heart beat. 

The things you mentioned also make it pretty useless: You can't set up on the top of a hill because you can't depress the barrel far enough to fire at the targets. You have to set up on the hill slope which makes you almost impossible to move again and makes you 100x more apt to be seen and killed. 

The long range killing power you possess is rendered pretty much useless in most conditions ingame. Trees and bushes block most towns. 

Pak38/40 all the way. Even pak36 if you are sneaky and know where to shoot. 

Been saying this for years. Most overrated weapon system in the game. 

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3 minutes ago, stankyus said:

They did have a 88 as a SPG.

This?
cd2170abb4a2a46ab101c38dbbc84593--armore

 

Its like tier 4 or 5 forget which, and as you said, whom ever designed it over at Krupp needed their head examined.
It not only has like no traverse, it wasn't even stable firing forwards, no one ever heard of a spade?
No wonder it didnt exactly last long

Poor pak43, to be stuck on such a POS carriage

 

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7 minutes ago, saronin said:

Historically speaking the M10 zoom was less then on the sights we have in game.

i think they rolled them back until they can fix the readability?
seems at some resolutions, higher ones, the reticle is garbled and cant be seen or read.

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Just now, merlin51 said:

i think they rolled them back until they can fix the readability?
seems at some resolutions, higher ones, the reticle is garbled and cant be seen or read.

Blah blah blah. Defend CRS for the non historical choice. Blah blah blah. 

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1 minute ago, merlin51 said:

Add in the Bofors at something like 11,000 pounds on carriage
some heavy stuff we be pushin.

While i dont know that i would speed the 88 or the bofors up, i also do not know that i would speed up the other atg's either.
Bofors and 88 are both on steerable 4 wheel carriages so while considerably heavier are on a better rolling platform, so it probably all works out in the end.

It will, you gotta tic-tac.
And be careful not to tip over.

 

3 minutes ago, vasduten1 said:

Who care about push speed?

 

Lets talk about grouping on ALL of them.

It sucks.

 

No way any army would approve of an anti tank cannon that couldn't hold a 2.5X2M group at 1000M, and in reality these guns had 100% accuracy at that range.

No, they didn't have a randomizer(tm) attached to the end of the barrel to disperse shots in a 4MX4M area.

 

No, the pak36s didn't swing wildly out of control every time you fired them.

 

No, the Allied counterparts weren't as chitty either, but they are in our game.

 

WHEN?

When will the HE/KE audit be in?

 

 

I think push speed is important - so I would disagree with you there.  The 3" should actually do better pushing as it had IIRC inflatable tires which gave it better maneuverability over terrain.

 

The 88 should not be missing at 1k - it should hit where the crosshairs are pointed at 1k.  I know that is not the case in the game.  However the 17pdr and 3" also had a 100% hit at 1k... that is not the case though the 17pdr does pretty well at hitting a target at 1k, I would say just north of 80% of the time.. its not so with the 3" atg or the M10.  Just this last intermission I got pissed because on flat ground I ranged the rear end of a StugG from the flank - 930m. Put the cross hairs on it and missed 7 times.. then got 2 hits and he rolled forward with some white smoke.  Never killed him before I got RPATED.

 

As for the pak36 jumping wildly.. judge for yourself.

 

The pak36 looks like its bouncing across the ground - yah?.. LOL.  I think I saw it shutter mb.. I think.

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11 minutes ago, saronin said:

Except historically speaking I could dig into the hill to level out the gun so I have a shot just over the top of the hill. Tried that in WWII Online lately?

Historically speaking the M10 zoom was less then on the sights we have in game. Yet nobody wanted to “deal with it”.

Spare me your historical argument hypocrisy. 

digging into the hill does not increase its ability to depress the weapon, though it would provide more protection.

The M10s sites have been corrected, they got the correct zoom speed when the Tiger got its ability to traverse its turret to its max rotation speed without requiring the engine to be on and reved to 3000 RPM to get its max rotation speed.  So we traded one historical correction while adding a unhistorical and mechanical impossible ability to the most powerful tank in T3.

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15 minutes ago, merlin51 said:

This?
cd2170abb4a2a46ab101c38dbbc84593--armore

 

Its like tier 4 or 5 forget which, and as you said, whom ever designed it over at Krupp needed their head examined.
It not only has like no traverse, it wasn't even stable firing forwards, no one ever heard of a spade?
No wonder it didnt exactly last long

Poor pak43, to be stuck on such a POS carriage

 

6fefbe8eb61a67a3dfd81ceddcc0a1cd.jpg

This one - which would be avail in the early tiers.

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