delems

Squad flags.

23 posts in this topic

Should consider squad flags, with maybe a platoon of supply.

If not, then, have a squad supply reserve that can be built by resupplying a flag - then have a choice to move supply to flag or to squad reserve.

Then later, the squad CO can choose to make available the supply for his squad members.

 

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Just curious, 

What would happen with the players that are not in a Squad? Me, for instance. 

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You don't get the privileges of squads.

Just like you don't right now, nothing different - no squad chat, no 'JOIN' mission button, no color identification of buddies, etc.

And if you spawned into a squad flag, you wouldn't have access to the gear (all red), unless the CO made the supply public access.

 

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@delems Have you figured out a way to balance them? Because if you have 20 squads one side and 5 squads on the other, giving 20 platoons worth of supply to one side and 5 to the other is a terrible idea.

Then you run into "well, no, you just pick the 5 from Allied that deserve it" and suddenly you introduce even more squad/side politics.

 

I have yet to see a satisfactory suggestion for squad flags that also completely covers balance. It's typically "wouldn't it be cool for squads to have?" The answer is yes, but CRS shouldn't do it at the cost of breaking the game.

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They only way to have balance on supply is if the squad just manage a portion of the total brigade/town supply, not an extra supply. But this introduces a lot of problems too.

I don't see this clear either.

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*** Have you figured out a way to balance them?

Well, the flag would prolly travel with the CO; so as long as CO didn't change sides, flag/supply wouldn't either.

 

Also, 1 platoon of infantry is less than 1/2 of 1% army infantry supply (i.e not counting navy or air infantry); it is not significant.

A single navy flag would have 4x the supply and 7x the autos as a squad flag....  I really don't think a squad flag is going to tilt any supply balance issues.

 

I would venture it would start either along the lines of the 4 biggest squads on each side (i.e. paying accounts) would get the flags.

Or, by purchasing them in some way.  So, axis squad wants flag; pays the cost and they get it.

Now, no more axis squads could buy a squad flag till an allied squad bought one.

Basically - one side could never have more than 1 more squad flag than the other.  This would not upset the overall balance.

 

Even with no balancing considerations, I just don't think a few more squad flags on one side vrs the other is really going to make a difference.  A navy flag has more supply than 4 squad flags combined........

 

The only possible disruption might be, a side with 10 squad flags vrs 2 squad flags could out maneuver the other side by virtue of having more units to move... but this is completely negated with town supply.  And, I really doubt you'd ever see 10 to 2 in game; maybe 6 to  4 or something like that.

 

Edited by delems

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Currently with the player population in game there really is no need to reserve supply to squads.  But in the future that, hopefully, will change.  In that case it would be up to the HC at the start of the map to decide the % reserved for each Squad or make it dynamic on how many members of each squad have logged in relative to the total side player logged in.  Ok it is ripe for abuse ;).

 

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On 2/9/2018 at 10:39 PM, delems said:

*** Have you figured out a way to balance them?

Well, the flag would prolly travel with the CO; so as long as CO didn't change sides, flag/supply wouldn't either.

...??????? So squads only get it if the CO is online, and only at the town that the CO is spawned into?

 

On 2/9/2018 at 10:39 PM, delems said:

Also, 1 platoon of infantry is less than 1/2 of 1% army infantry supply (i.e not counting navy or air infantry); it is not significant.

A single navy flag would have 4x the supply and 7x the autos as a squad flag....  I really don't think a squad flag is going to tilt any supply balance issues.

A platoon would be ~15-30 units of supply, yes? Handing out 20 x [15-30] supply to one side and 5 x [15-30] supply to the other is still a horrible idea and very easy to game. Encourages many small squads.

 

On 2/9/2018 at 10:39 PM, delems said:

I would venture it would start either along the lines of the 4 biggest squads on each side (i.e. paying accounts) would get the flags.

Or, by purchasing them in some way.  So, axis squad wants flag; pays the cost and they get it.

Now, no more axis squads could buy a squad flag till an allied squad bought one.

Basically - one side could never have more than 1 more squad flag than the other.  This would not upset the overall balance.

That balances the numbers, but that's some crazy pay-to-win stuff right there. Even if it's an insignificant advantage, it's still an advantage, and you can buy it. Really not a good direction for this game.

Also, since it would be first-come-first-served, you could have some squads monopolize it over others. This would be especially bad if the squads that do have the flags don't utilize them well, are on at non-peak timezones, etc.

 

On 2/9/2018 at 10:39 PM, delems said:

Even with no balancing considerations, I just don't think a few more squad flags on one side vrs the other is really going to make a difference.  A navy flag has more supply than 4 squad flags combined........

 

The only possible disruption might be, a side with 10 squad flags vrs 2 squad flags could out maneuver the other side by virtue of having more units to move... but this is completely negated with town supply.  And, I really doubt you'd ever see 10 to 2 in game; maybe 6 to  4 or something like that.

I'm just going to have to completely disagree here. Supply advantage is supply advantage, no matter how insignficant. If the Allies arbitrarily got 1 more rifle than Axis, you had better bet every Axis player would complain, and vice versa. Even if it's extremely unlikely that single rifle would decide the fate of a battle, there's a theoretical situation where it might, and that's all that matters. You're talking about a lot more than 1, and 15-30 supply, especially if you can stack that with multiple squad flags, can absolutely decide a battle.


It would likely be best if you just disassociate any supply advantages from this idea; it complicates too many things, between trying to balance, satisfying the customers, etc. It may be better to think of other advantages that could be given to a roaming presence that might be worth monetary investment or sufficiently large squads helping to keep the game alive. Perhaps all units spawned in a town with a squad flag has that squad's insignia somewhere on it? Insignia is bigger or different or something if the player is an actual member of that squad? Maybe that's a better direction to pursue.

Or if you absolutely must have it have supply, maybe each squad gets a flag, but it has no natural supply and doesn't resupply. Instead, HC could be given command tools to be able to give up to a platoon's amount of supply to it taken from the town it's in, or for a squad CO/XO to send a request for HC to approve to do that, or something. Would avoid side supply imbalances, avoids too much favoritism by HC for one squad over another by not having it be too much supply, encourages squads with healthy membership to be able to actually use the supply given to them, etc.

Edited by chaoswzkd

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Guess I'm just looking for ways to promote squads and membership.

Right now I'm about ready to dump mine, just too much work.

Can't show structure of squad, no ranks, no sub units, no supply, no special missions, no special PPOs, nada.  ok, squad chat which any group of players can create with the radio.

Nothing but all manual labor trying to keep it organized, for little payoff.

We've gone from over 1100 to under 80.  To much effort to maintain.

 

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I don't really get where this is coming from. You look at any other game, with few exceptions, and all clans/squads/clubs get is a chat room of their own (squad channel), a membership list to see all the other members, and a tag on their username. Some games offer hotjoins and such. Rarely there'll be group vs. group mechanics (which isn't realistic in this game).

The whole point is to build a community, not to get super special unique doodads X, Y, and Z.

 

That doesn't mean we can't be different and make squads in WWIIOL something special, but we also have to avoid giving them so much they break things.

Giving them unique gameplay mechanics that put every player not in a squad, or one side with less squads than the other, at a disadvantage is a bad idea, so special supply and PPOs and such are right out unless they have 0 gameplay effects.

Not sure what you mean by "structure of squad, ranks, and sub units". The game definitely has that (other than sub units). I'm guessing you want more than Recruit -> Member -> Recruiter -> CO -> XO?

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You run a squad? You try to organize it?

 

I need to be able to assign ranks to every member (all the ranks we have in game); so they know who the Lts are, who the Sgts are and who the privates are, not to mention the corporals.

This rank needs to show up in the squad tab and be sorted on if liked, and it should show up in game if tags are on.

The CO, XO, recruiter, member, rookie is completely worthless.

 

I need them in groups, we got 4 units (and some of those units have sub units); no way to see who is in what unit, or who is the unit leader, or assistant unit leader.

This also should be seen from the squad tab and sortable, i.e sort by group, with sub sort by rank in group. Ideally, groups would be shades different from each other for members in game;  each group a shade of gray with HQ troops white.  So, one can see all their squaddies (like now) but can also see the units of them.

 

I need as easy way for players to spawn in on their team leader or the CO. (not just another member like we have now with JOIN - though, that can substitute sort of)

When rookie clicks on squad tab, sure they see JOIN;  but I want two more buttons, JOIN Team Leader, JOIN CO.  Much easier for newbs that way.

 

All of these are painfully absent in the game, and makes it so managing a squad is nothing but a full time job- not what I want to do.

 I'm the CO, and I can't even remember everyone and what unit they are in.

 

 

A new player joining my squad should with one look at the squad tab (maybe 2 after sorting by rank and unit); should instantly be able to see how the entire squad is laid out, what units there are, who are the 'leaders' and single click to join them.  I want to stop spending my time organizing the squad, and actually organizing our tactics and playing the game.

 

Edited by delems

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Well, you should be suggesting things to fix that rather than tripling down on the squad flags.

 

This is something that would need a cost-benefit analysis to the playerbase as a whole, because I'm not sure how many squads actually get that complicated.

I'm a member of Windhund, and we are split up into 60th  (infantry) and JABO (air). So, only two "groups". The leaders of those groups are the ones with the second-highest rank, and so very easily identifiable in-game on the squad tab. The current system is a non-issue for us.

However, I know there are more active and more populous squads. If they also face similar challenges as you do and are wanting to have more organization in their squad setup, then that means that it's more beneficial for CRS to prioritize that.

On the other hand, if most squads are perfectly fine with the current system, then there's not much benefit for prioritizing those changes for CRS.

 

It might be worth it for you to start a new thread (as this has deviated away from squad flags) either here or in Game Suggestions asking other squads if they are also sorely needing the squad system to be fleshed out more.

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*** Well, you should be suggesting things to fix that rather than tripling down on the squad flags.

Because squad flags is something they can do for squads today.  No programming per se.

Maybe a weekend of work; they already got flags, they already got supply and they can already name the flags.

So, make some single flags, put the squad names on them and give them 51 troops (52 when ATS arrives).

Allow the squad CO to move the flag and be done with it (maybe XO, maybe HC or other variations, but the 'simple' way could be done immediately).

 

The other squad tools (ranks, units) actually requires code changes, not sure how much - but not trivial would be my guess. (though not that hard either)

 

I think squads should have all of this (and more, mission control, PPOs etc), just the flags would be far easier to get first.

 

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Delems logic = Not enough time to manage squad as is, so gimme a flag to manage over it :rolleyes: 

Seriously, its just a bad idea. Too much trouble balance and management wise for what its worth. 

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The squad flag is simply a perk for squads; it will in no way help manage the squad.

It is a way to encourage squads and maybe.. hmm, just maybe, grow game population and spark additional fights around the map?

 

*** Seriously, its just a bad idea. Too much trouble balance and management wise for what its worth. 

Maybe, but then again, maybe a good idea, been tried yet?

I mean, really, things aren't going to get much worse, but they could improve if squads grew and there was more game action?

 

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15 minutes ago, delems said:

Because squad flags is something they can do for squads today.  No programming per se.

Maybe a weekend of work; they already got flags, they already got supply and they can already name the flags.

So, make some single flags, put the squad names on them and give them 51 troops (52 when ATS arrives).

Allow the squad CO to move the flag and be done with it (maybe XO, maybe HC or other variations, but the 'simple' way could be done immediately).

Actually a lot of work, and yes programming.
And you dont want a squad flag being a clone of a BDE flag.
May as well hand a starving man food encased in magic unbreakable glass.

The would subject said flag to the entire strat system including movement rules etc.
That does not do anything wonderful for squad night when the CO comes on and wants to set the flag in the squads area of interest that night and can not because its either 3 hours of flag moves away, OR it got routed since last squad night and is off in a pile in the training grounds.

That isnt what you want for squads anyways, i dont think.
I know i sure would not like it too much.

CO should be able to pop on and get things prepped, Plunk down his squad flag in some manner, which should be more like a "Rally to Me" call of sorts
and maybe have some other functions that i wont go into here rather than some direct supply thing.
And he should not have to babysit said flag after the night it over or worry what happened to it while he was at work during the week.

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1 hour ago, delems said:

*** Well, you should be suggesting things to fix that rather than tripling down on the squad flags.

Because squad flags is something they can do for squads today.  No programming per se.

Maybe a weekend of work; they already got flags, they already got supply and they can already name the flags.

So, make some single flags, put the squad names on them and give them 51 troops (52 when ATS arrives).

Allow the squad CO to move the flag and be done with it (maybe XO, maybe HC or other variations, but the 'simple' way could be done immediately).

 

The other squad tools (ranks, units) actually requires code changes, not sure how much - but not trivial would be my guess. (though not that hard either)

 

I think squads should have all of this (and more, mission control, PPOs etc), just the flags would be far easier to get first.

 

We would have to make the flags (though you are correct at least the object exists) - though they'd have to be redone to show squad names

We would have to make a TO&E Table per flag - to track tickets and supply levels

We would have to code in the flag 'rules' - everything to do with them

We would have to decide exactly who can move it - with code there is no 'maybe' (unless intentionally created with some sort of yes/no randomizer)

We would have to code rules on when a flag was on map, and when it's off

We would have to code rules on what happens with the flag when the CO isn't on

We would have to code what happens with it when the CO logs off (but leaves the flag on map)

We would have to code ways to allow players to see what's supply is available within the flag, and where the flag is

We would have to..............................  

so no not 'trivial'

jobs@wwiionline.com

 

 

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I get your point sort of, but first cut none of that would be an issue.

 

======

We would have to make a TO&E Table per flag - to track tickets and supply levels

-easy enough, so create it, 30 min db entry?

 

We would have to code in the flag 'rules' - everything to do with them

-nope, use nothing but existing rules for flags.

 

We would have to decide exactly who can move it - with code there is no 'maybe' (unless intentionally created with some sort of yes/no randomizer)

-nope, first run, HC only... guess CO would join HC wouldn't they?

 

We would have to code rules on when a flag was on map, and when it's off

-nope, do nothing, same as existing flags - flags are always on map unless routed.

 

We would have to code rules on what happens with the flag when the CO isn't on

-nope, do nothing, what happens to TOE flags when no HC on?  Same would happen to squad flag when CO wasn't on.

 

We would have to code what happens with it when the CO logs off (but leaves the flag on map)

-nope, do nothing, same as when all HC logs off, do the TOE flags do something different?  Neither would the squad flag.

 

We would have to code ways to allow players to see what's supply is available within the flag, and where the flag is

-nope, they would right click just like normal and join flag.  They would see flag on map, just like they see every other TOE flag on map.

 

We would have to.....   basically do little;  just add a flag and give it the squad name.  Make it independent, not belong to another division.

 

so no not 'trivial' ---  Seems to me very close to trivial.  Squad flag is nothing but a normal TOE flag, but just 1 flag and it has squad name on it.

======

 

 

Edited by delems

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31 minutes ago, delems said:

I get your point sort of, but first cut none of that would be an issue.

First cut it would all be an issue - the initial implementation of something is where the 'overall' impression comes from - even if corrected later the initial impression lasts - this game's history is replete with examples.  

======

We would have to make a TO&E Table per flag - to track tickets and supply levels

-easy enough, so create it, 30 min db entry?

There's currently 558 active squads in game (and significantly more than that inactive (which we'd have to account for)) - the process being a 1 time thing would be manual - longer than 30 min to do - even if done on a spreadsheet and then imported into a DB.  

We would have to code in the flag 'rules' - everything to do with them

-nope, use nothing but existing rules for flags.

Still have to edit every current rule instance to allow for the new class of flag - so yep

We would have to decide exactly who can move it - with code there is no 'maybe' (unless intentionally created with some sort of yes/no randomizer)

-nope, first run, HC only... guess CO would join HC wouldn't they?

This is the 3rd different 'mover' and criteria you've listed for this idea pick one and stick with it.  

We would have to code rules on when a flag was on map, and when it's off

-nope, do nothing, same as existing flags - flags are always on map unless routed.

That goes over like a lead balloon when every squads flags are in wherever they go when routed (we'd have to add that as well by the way)

We would have to code rules on what happens with the flag when the CO isn't on

-nope, do nothing, what happens to TOE flags when no HC on?  Same would happen to squad flag when CO wasn't on.

See above

We would have to code what happens with it when the CO logs off (but leaves the flag on map)

-nope, do nothing, same as when all HC logs off, do the TOE flags do something different?  Neither would the squad flag.

See above - somehow I think the forum melt down would be fairly spectacular when a squad CO logs, but has 10 squad members still online and they can't do anything with the 'squad' flag except spawn.  Could be fun to watch I suppose.  Also - your initial few posts had the flag being only available when the CO was online - so again - if you're pushing to implement an idea - consistency is key, changing the criteria changes the requirements to put it in. 

We would have to code ways to allow players to see what's supply is available within the flag, and where the flag is

-nope, they would right click just like normal and join flag.  They would see flag on map, just like they see every other TOE flag on map.

 

We would have to.....   basically do little;  just add a flag and give it the squad name.  Make it independent, not belong to another division.

it's way more than a little - not sure why you can't seem to grasp that.  

so no not 'trivial' ---  Seems to me very close to trivial.  Squad flag is nothing but a normal TOE flag, but just 1 flag and it has squad name on it.

======

jobs@wwiionline.com - come show us how easy it is. 

 

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Not sure what you are missing.

Squad flags are nothing but normal system flags.  They go to training when routed, there is nothing special about them at all.

Not sure of details, but why are they a new class of flag? (supply maybe?)

 

They are normal existing flags just like today, but with squad name on them and lower supply (and just 1 flag, not part of 4 in division).

 

Regarding moving - again, do it easy at first, HC only;  later if it seems to work out, add details like a squad CO that isn't in HC, or XO.

(i'm writing about what could be and what we can do right now - and pretty sure we could do 95% of this right now w/very little work)

Sure, ideally maybe XOs could move - or maybe flag would auto remove when CO logged off - but for now just make it a regular flag.

 

And obviously, there would be some threshold for getting a squad flag - 10 paying members minimum in squad?  I don't know, just throwing it out there.

Maybe squad pays $100 a year for their flag?  idk, but clearly not every squad would get a flag - at least not at first.

 

And, to test, you make 2 flags, one allied and one axis to try trial it.  Not all 500, presuming they even qualify.

 

Edited by delems

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16 minutes ago, delems said:

Not sure what you are missing.

The specifics

Squad flags are nothing but normal system flags.  They go to training when routed, there is nothing special about them at all.

They would be a new class, with new templates, tied to new DB tables (or maybe even (a) separate DB(s) given the size it'd have to be)

Not sure of details, but why are they a new class of flag? (supply maybe?)

Yes - currently the 'flags' on the map are a specific type (armor, infantry, air, navy (with their HQ's also a different type)) tied to a table for the specific unit - squads would be a new class of flag and tied to a new template, and new DB's to support them.  Anything coding details are the key.

They are normal existing flags just like today, but with squad name on them and lower supply (and just 1 flag, not part of 4 in division).

Except they don't currently exist and would have to essentially be built from scratch (minus the actual physical flag icon). 

Regarding moving - again, do it easy at first, HC only;  later if it seems to work out, add details like a squad CO that isn't in HC, or XO.

(i'm writing about what could be and what we can do right now - and pretty sure we could do 95% of this right now w/very little work)

And I'm trying to tell you - there is nothing 'very little work' about your idea.  Also - what does the map look like with an additional 558 squad flags on it?  

And obviously, there would be some threshold for getting a squad flag - 10 paying members minimum in squad?  I don't know, just throwing it out there.

Squad is a sQuad is a sqUad.  What specifically is your threshold, and what happens when a squad goes below it?   Have you thought through the third order of effects as a group of paying customers have the squad flag ripped out from under them because someone else unsubbed? 

Maybe squad pays $100 a year for their flag?  idk, but clearly not every squad would get a flag - at least not at first.

SO you've now added more criteria - maybe think it all the way through then make a new post spelling out specifics and not general ideas with shifting goals and implementation criteria.

And, to test, you make 2 flags, one allied and one axis to try trial it.  Not all 500, presuming they even qualify.

Great for a test - still leaves all the work to make sure they function properly, and then all the work to add all of them in. 

 

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I'm throwing ideas out.  I don't have all the answers.  I just think squad flags might be very beneficial.

Both for players and for the company.

Maybe they wouldn't be.

 

And, yes, the squad would deal with it if their 10 members went to 9.  Too bad so sad.  Why is this even an issue?  You either meet the requirements or you don't.  Simple.

 

*** Also - what does the map look like with an additional 558 squad flags on it?  

It looks green, an additional $55,800 revenue for the company every year :) minus the 20k for full time worker to manage it, if it requires that much.

It also looks like flags in every town (hmm, town supply???) and it looks like fights across the entire front maybe.....  I don't know - what do you see with 558 squad flags?

 

Edited by delems

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Wait..
You basically want to give me a squad flag, but it isnt a squad flag, it's another HC flag
HC can use it at will, and any player can join it.
But you want to tell me its my squads flag? But it isnt.
That is in effect what you just created in a butt load of hours of work.

I could do that more easily by changing the name of 3rd commando to Delem's Pals
You'd have just as much use out of it.

And who has to go edit the DB when the squad officially swaps sides for a camp?
Or can you never do that?

BTW, that is 600 and growing required dedicated map locations for the flags you have no control of to get routed to when you cant move them
or do you also want your flag owned by a specific country and HQ?
Oh i am so sorry, your squad rolled US? well then you cant play until tier X

I could think of some cool things a squad could have in a map flag
but that awfulness, i'm sorry but myself, id never try passing that off on people as "hey here is your squads flag" except it isnt your squads flag, just someone else's pawn.
They'd hang me burn me quarter me and scourge me all at the same time, and that's if i didnt do it to myself 1st.

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