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david01

FMS still camped way too easily by tanks

41 posts in this topic

Hopped on earlier today and this is pretty much what I saw. It's late-tier so now the better tanks can literally just drive up to the FMS and not have to worry about the light tier 0 ATGs. We were lucky that one guy (the mission leader) was able to snag one of the five RPATs in the brigade, but as you can see in the video they've not reliable. This is just like the Steam release except with fewer greentags spawning; I don't see how the game is going to grow when it has such bad balance between tank and antitank, yet relies on infantry for all the capturing and other duties.

 

Also it's ridiculous that an infantry brigade in this tier has 37 armored vehicles but only 30 LMGs, and there being 20 light and medium guns with 10 heavy guns. ATGs should dramatically outnumber armored vehicles if not because history then because of gameplay. ATGs are glass cannons that in many cases don't effectively counter what they're supposed to counter.

 

 

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Bring armor support, bring heavy ATG support, or send out a call for it.
The FMS is simply a travel tool for infantry and light units, its quality of existence is going to be what you as a group together make it.
You have to support it, it isnt going to support itself, it isnt a mini mobile fortress

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24 minutes ago, merlin51 said:

Bring armor support, bring heavy ATG support, or send out a call for it.
The FMS is simply a travel tool for infantry and light units, its quality of existence is going to be what you as a group together make it.
You have to support it, it isnt going to support itself, it isnt a mini mobile fortress

No you're right it's not a fortress.  It's a range with pop up targets for tanks.

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51 minutes ago, merlin51 said:

Bring armor support, bring heavy ATG support, or send out a call for it.
The FMS is simply a travel tool for infantry and light units, its quality of existence is going to be what you as a group together make it.
You have to support it, it isnt going to support itself, it isnt a mini mobile fortress

I've heard this mantra for a long time now. Well not exactly that; before people cited PPOs as a means to prevent the FMS from being camped. So at least no one is telling me to build PPO forts anymore.

 

Requiring armor and heavy ATGs by the attacker to keep a battle going means no battles and no action, or lopsided camps like in the video. The side that tries to slap together an attack and get something rolling gets punished; I don't know how many infantry units were lost in a span of 15 minutes but it was rough.

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5 minutes ago, Pittpete said:

So what is the answer David?

Just curious to what you would do to remedy this?

I don't think that there's a silver bullet but there are a lot of things that can be tried to fix the balance. I've already said to let medium ATGs spawn from the FMS. Small things like making mortarmen more effective (via more ammo or faster reload rates) as smoke screens are really important. More light ATGs in infantry brigades; earlier it was funny when there were no light ATGs but almost a full list of medium and heavy ATGs. There are just way too many tanks everywhere in general, and they also teleport in to town. The pak 36 still has very narrow sights and isn't suited at all to short range combat or new players in general. A fairly drastic move would be to give riflemen a HEAT charge but I doubt that would ever fly here.

 

A major issue is that I show something and go "this is not good" then others say "No this is GREAT! They deserved this". So people don't even think that this is poor gameplay.

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No, build PPO's they help the infantry move out, seek cover also get confused as the FMS,  ATG's can use them, even can be used by defending tanks to some extent.
AND bring in units to support your FMS.

It's not all you, all the friendly tanks floating around, they need to see where their FMS's are and support them.
Everything is dependant on the other thing for success both in attacking and defending.
 

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As it has been stated, armor and air support are needed. Another BIG issue is not enough FMS are being built, players are all to happy to have some one else do the work and complain when camped. If your FMS is camped drive in a new one. If an AO only has 1-2 FMS, IT WILL BE FOUND, drive in more. Seriously, too few players willing to do it, and that's what costs AOS and momentum. No amount of game tweaking will fix the problem of players not wanting to do the right thing.

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Same topic, different thread, when you state numbers if light atgs are low, it' bc players use em up faster than they can be replenished, lots of heavy and medium guns, but lo and behold they require being towed by a truck, WHICH TOO FEW PEOPLE DO, hence they are often left to rot in an attacker stockpile. Lots of tanks seen on the battlefield bc once again 1 person can go crazy with it, unless you know, it takes more than 5 minutes to drive to the AO. Once again, problem lies with people wanting to do the easy or lazy thing and lay on a core group of players doing the hard thing, no coding will fix that. 

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47 minutes ago, hateract said:

Seriously, too few players willing to do it, and that's what costs AOS and momentum. No amount of game tweaking will fix the problem of players not wanting to do the right thing.

I think a lot of these types of problems go away when/if we get more leader types in game.

How do we get more players willing to tow guns and set an FMS? 

1 hour ago, david01 said:

There are just way too many tanks everywhere

I would agree with this

1 hour ago, david01 said:

The pak 36 still has very narrow sights and isn't suited at all to short range combat or new players in general

Pretty certain this is fixed or being worked on.

1 hour ago, david01 said:

I've already said to let medium ATGs spawn from the FMS.

This isn't a bad idea and i'd like to see a few medium ATG's be allowed to spawn at first and then monitored. It's worth a shot and don't see how it would hurt. The reason ATG's started spawning at depots was to prevent AB's from being camped and locked down.

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*** No, build PPO's

You obviously don't play axis and watch as the first ea anywhere near the ZOC spots the PPOs and drops 1 bomb destroying everyone of them.

PPOs are worthless and almost counter productive as they give away the ZOC/MS immediately to the first ea flying overhead.

 

Should be no armor in infantry flags - maybe some of the lightest armored cars and tanks only (like tier 0 stuff); just so tankers have something I suppose.

I'd cut supply of everything on map with a motor in half, then try a campaign.

 

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*** I think a lot of these types of problems go away when/if we get more leader types in game.

You have leaders in game, they just aren't empowered to do anything.

 

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29 minutes ago, delems said:

*** No, build PPO's

You obviously don't play axis and watch as the first ea anywhere near the ZOC spots the PPOs and drops 1 bomb destroying everyone of them.

PPOs are worthless and almost counter productive as they give away the ZOC/MS immediately to the first ea flying overhead.

 

Should be no armor in infantry flags - maybe some of the lightest armored cars and tanks only (like tier 0 stuff); just so tankers have something I suppose.

I'd cut supply of everything on map with a motor in half, then try a campaign.

 

Yup, I always laugh when I see someone building PPOs all around the FMS. Just a giant BOMB ME sign. 

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Just watched the video again....

Shreck seems to be hitting the sap spot but possibly if he fired at more of a 90 degree angle the chances of penetration are greater....

On the 4th shot he changed up the angle and it brewed up...

Panzerschrek - a rocket propelled grenade with a shaped charge warhead could penetrate up to 140 mm of armor but had a range of only 60 meters. It could be deflected by sloped armor and applied armor. 

 

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24 minutes ago, delems said:

*** I think a lot of these types of problems go away when/if we get more leader types in game.

You have leaders in game, they just aren't empowered to do anything.

 

Build the squads and watch them grow and watch it translate to the field....

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*** Build the squads and watch them grow and watch it translate to the field....

You obviously haven't tried, I can see.

I am a squad CO - and we get nothing to help our squads in this game.

Not sure what fantasy land you living in... oh, I know.. prolly the grease gun in tier 0 world.....  Or maybe the star trek backline timers...

You live in a dream world it seems, come join the real world.

 

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Bottom line is that if your FMS is over run, take it down.  You didn't do enough to keep that zone of control or bring enough force to keep it. 

I understand when you said it was one of 2 FMS to that attack, but when the enemy is zeroed in on that particular FMS, take it down.  Nothing gained losing units at a camped  FMS, besides which the enemy now knows the exact position of your FMS.  Pretty much nothing good will come of it keeping it up. 

What get's me is when idiots complain the FMS is too far out. About a month ago I had a bunker rush FMS set up. I put that in the orders (along with saying VERY CLOSE).  A mouth breather spawned in and said "you call this very close?".... the FMS was exactly 437m from the bunker...

I usually try and set my FMS about 7-800m out and I always bring gun support.  If you can't tow a gun in, as soon as it's up you should despawn your truck and spawn an ATG.  I don't wanna hear how bad the pak36 is...most players drive a scout car or something fast to camp your FMS and the pak36 will wreck them. It even wrecks Shermans from the flank. Get out 3-400m from the FMS on the flank, wait for the sherman to come to camp then brew him up. 

 

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I've got an elaborate but plausible idea.... how about a special "command truck" that only someone Lt.Col or above can spawn, so typically HC or a vet at the very least.  A high-risk high-reward unit.

-Two per *GROUND* HQ flag (Beddy, Laff, Opel) could even make it a special version carrying a cap point flag in the bed of the truck and unable to tow or carry troops to make it fair (laff has better towing options than the others).  If possible give it a special EWS signal.

-Cannot spawn from FB since it's HQ. You also lose a ground flag from the FB due to the way HQ spawning works, i suppose you could have a HQ unit from another div show up though.  I am not a map guy, so I dunno how bad you could game this system.

-Uses entire HQ spawn list on a depot style trickle.  Limited inf, but tons of other gear that finally has a legit chance to see attack action, usually the flag is reserved for last stand defense ive noticed. 

-Builds a "command" FMS that is twice the size with a cp flag on top, directly behind it like 15 meters are 3 functional truck style ammo cans with no collision that is the veh spawn point.   It does not come with walls or any sort of protection and the ammo cans will block any attempt at further fortications or sandbag grief.  Also it will have to be on somewhat flat ground due to size. (so no forests with berms, but you could deploy it in say... an enemy Army Base.)

-Must have AO on the town to deploy (but not to spawn).  You cannot build it out at an FB or some such beforehand and giggle.

-Must be within 1k of an enemy controlled building or FB to build, so the REVERSE of current rules and it will for sure set off EWS and you will really have to hustle that thing outta there to get RTB or Res.

-Joule value makes it immortal to bombs, but vulnerable to satchel charges, like an FB.  Keep the same 4 satchel rule so you always have a shot at beating one even without engy.

Idea behind it is to give a hardened FB style option that is limited but could be super evil at the same time.  Imagine attacking antwerp/aachen and you can just straight up claim an army base essentially with an armor and bofors etc spawn.

I dunno, just a thought.  Go ahead and flame me plzkthx.

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Should have brewed it up with the 1st shot , sap spot,  50 meters dead on shot would have done the Trick. No clue why he took 4 shots from the rear in an awkward angle.

I don't even try any other spots I go directly to sap spot like I would sap it stand back, aim,  fire and Sherman blows.

 

If you let a Tank come that close you already messed up and the FMS is compromised.  Nature of the game , nobody wants to do Truck runs with Inf, so we got FMS .

There will always be a counter . Best spots to set any FMS is in small woods were Tanks really can't go . Or make sure that the opening is covered by bushes. 

Be a sapper or a ATG or Anti tank soldier, hide wait till one Tank shows blow him  hide again and repeat. You have to take in consideration that you might wait 30 min till one shows , or you might wait forever and none show. It's just the way the game plays. Sometimes they roll Tanks left and right and sometimes only INF will come. 

 

I think it's just a matter of how you want to play, can you wait ? Or do you need the action?  

You must decide.

 

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Allowing larger ATGs to spawn from the FMS would be the simplest way for CRS to implement a solution to deter enemy tanks from camping FMS.

However, if you make the FMS harder to take out, this will also probably make things easier for the overpop side too.

Need to think about these kind of changes carefully, because tactical gameplay changes could have strategic balance consequences for the game as well.

 

Edited by krazydog

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1 hour ago, krazydog said:

Allowing larger ATGs to spawn from the FMS would be the simplest way for CRS to implement a solution to deter enemy tanks from camping FMS.

However, if you make the FMS harder to take out, this will also probably make things easier for the overpop side too.

Need to think about these kind of changes carefully, because tactical gameplay changes could have strategic balance consequences for the game as well.

I think we would devastate the tank game by allowing heavy ATG's to be spawn-able at the FMS. Remember, the objective of the FMS having any ATG supply at all is to repel some basic things like enemy trucks and armored cars, perhaps even a light tank (Panzer II C, R35, Vickers, etc). It is not designed to be a full fledged "army in a box" solution.

The game simply requires people to be working together intelligently, we cannot go down the rabbit hole of coding human resource efforts that should be occurring like that.

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12 minutes ago, XOOM said:

I think we would devastate the tank game by allowing heavy ATG's to be spawn-able at the FMS. Remember, the objective of the FMS having any ATG supply at all is to repel some basic things like enemy trucks and armored cars, perhaps even a light tank (Panzer II C, R35, Vickers, etc). It is not designed to be a full fledged "army in a box" solution.

The game simply requires people to be working together intelligently, we cannot go down the rabbit hole of coding human resource efforts that should be occurring like that.

When the FMS entered.. remember we had a glitch and the 3" ATG was able to spawn at them?  That was a intermission thing with many Tigers everywhere and we decimated them.. Agree, heavy/medium atgs at FMS will destroy the tanking game.  I see the pak36 killing Shermans pretty often from the current EFMS's now.. including myself a few times so its not like they cant do it now.

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13 hours ago, delems said:

*** Build the squads and watch them grow and watch it translate to the field....

You obviously haven't tried, I can see.

I am a squad CO - and we get nothing to help our squads in this game.

Not sure what fantasy land you living in... oh, I know.. prolly the grease gun in tier 0 world.....  Or maybe the star trek backline timers...

You live in a dream world it seems, come join the real world.

 

What are you talking about?

I'm agreeing that the key is to building up the squads.

Perhaps if you spent more time on building your squad, then in the forums complaining about how you don't have the tools to build your squad you wouldn't be so defensive.You can't even use the quote function in the forums what are you going to do with squad tools?

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The changes to the FMS required a change in the way the game is played. Not all players have changed the way they play the game.

The previous FRU required some infantry shielding or else anyone could walk over and grenade it. This was mitigated by it being relatively easy to hide and being able to be deployed by infantry mission leaders.

The current FMS is more visible, but is only vulnerable to HE satchels and bombs, and allows major protection in a wide angle to the front and the ability to spawn light guns. This requires some infantry support to prevent riflemen, engineers, and Sappers from killing it. It also requires heavy anti-tank support, as it is more visible and therefore easier to spot with armor.

The playerbase has reacted in the following ways:

1) Tow along medium and/or heavy ATGs or bring armor to set up a ZoC for the FMS

2) Use engineers to build gun bunkers and sandbags in a protective ring around the FMS, which trades visibility for protection from camping

3) Set an FMS with no additional protection, relying completely on something easily visible staying hidden, complaining when control of the area is lost, demanding the ability to magically warp in higher-tier weaponry on-demand in order to regain control of the area, and refusing to pull the FMS when it gets overrun

 

Three guesses as to which of these approaches is ineffective, and the first two don't count.

 

Something very similar happened when the cap timers got extended.

Previously, individual soldiers would ninja cap without actually fighting or gaining any territory in a town, placing extreme importance on constant vigilance by the defenders on every single cp.

Cap timers were considerably lengthened, which placed extreme importance on "capturing" and holding territory, as well as packing bodies into a control point to speed up the capture process.

The playerbase responded by:

1) Fighting to clear out and hold sectors of a town in order to better guarantee a capture

2) Bringing in close armor support to properly lock down cps

3) Packing in multiple infantry to further guarantee a cap

4) Trying to Rambo in behind enemy lines to ninja cap a cp without really fighting for anything and complaining when it took so long that a defender noticed them trying to cap solo and cleared them out

 

I'll give you four guesses this time, and the first three don't count.

 

I will grant that there are arguments to be made to the improvement of both the FMS and capture mechanics. However, not taking into account changes to the game and complaining because you didn't take into account changes to the game... loses a lot of support for your argument. It's effectively "Tanks camped our FMS because we didn't protect it despite having the ability to do so, pls fix".

A better argument would be "FMSes are getting camped and attacks are getting shut down because players are disincentivized from spawning in guns to be towed or spawning tanks to protect them, here's a suggestion to fix that".

A better argument would be "FMSes are too easily camped from too many angles, so some rear-facing defenses like a couple of rounded walls of sandbags should be used".

A better argument would be "FMSes are extremely limited by one per mission, so maybe we should open it up so attackers can advance on a town without losing all progress due to 1 or 2 enemy engineers".

Each of those have been suggestions made by the playerbase that definitely have some merit to them.

Edited by chaoswzkd

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Nice post Chaos....

but >>>

making the FMS harder to destroy, only promotes and prolongs the ability to camp.

the current FMS is usually a death trap for infantry once a tank gets in camping range.

1 hour ago, XOOM said:

I think we would devastate the tank game by allowing heavy ATG's to be spawn-able at the FMS

 

Not allowing a few medium ATG's to spawn at FMS without trying it first is a little shortsighted, no disrespect..

Unless you try something you're only guessing at the outcome.....

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