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Mosizlak

More bombers, same old AAA

117 posts in this topic

I said ”in general”. LW has enough trumps kitwise to do well and we don’t have half-tiers, quarter-tiers or every variant of every crate to make this 100% historical. 

I’ve heard LW wanting the A8 for instance, as if that’d ve some kind of magic bullet. Sure, against heavy bombers. For other purposes not so much.

We most certainly lack definition in the Allied plane-set.

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An interesting stat.....

Allies    United Kingdom    Tactical Bomber    1,346    513    2.62    Mar 11 09:55
Allies    France    Tactical Bomber    2,765    781    3.54    Mar 11 09:55
Axis    Germany    Tactical Bomber    399    283    1.41    Mar 11 06:25

 

So, allies 4000 sorties, axis 400; Hmm.  Eh, close enough for bomber work.

 

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6 hours ago, bmbm said:

”... left because the air timeline is horrible ... decades of imbalance ...”

The LW kit is what it is - we can’t invent a third type of fighter beside the 109 and 190. 

Wunderweapons like the Ta152, Dora and 262 only factor in by 1944 and they still don’t do diddly about Spits, which is arguably the main concern.

What we can do is progress to the Macchis and Reggianes, but 1) so many things on the list and 2) they’re not LW.

The LW kit in general has a lot of strengths and superiorities - speed, guns, climb, dive and roll. As a long-time Allied player with 98% French sorties, all I know is material inferiority.

I too would like to fill out the holes in the spawnlist, for all. We are pedalling as hard as we can.

 

I think most of us would be happy to have a damage and flight model audit done to all aircraft. The unrealistic flight models of a couple aircraft are the main issue for us. Yes, the 109 is a PITA to fly, but when certain targets can do things that are physically impossible that puts us off.

 

Also, the FW190 should be a 1941 aircraft, 42 at the latest. And a year or so later, the F model ground attack versions should be out. So Tier 1 and 2 (2 and 3 at the latest).

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The 109 has undergone a FM audit recently and has, it seems, become less a Flop-o-Matic than before - something that browned off many LW both vet and green in times not so long past. I don't expect it to get any more special attention in the future. The FM will likely stay as is - it's a huge lump of code and making any change big or small to it would likely put a stop to any and all other progress. 

26 minutes ago, haupt said:

The unrealistic flight models of a couple aircraft are the main issue for us.

Namely, the Spit and the Havoc/DB7, yes? Improved DM and structural damage (overstress) will likely curb unrealistic pilot behavior without bias. 

From the Allied perspective He-111s and 109s also have "unrealistic flight models", or rather, over-perform according to our less-than-well-informed expectations... so, this is something that has an impact on both sides equally.

I haven't reflected over it but assumed the FW190-A4 was a tier 2 a/c already. Tier 1 -A1 isn't really an alternative IMO due to lateness of production and small number of units fielded. 

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15 hours ago, SCKING said:

 

Just remember that the SC250 250Kg bomb is a much larger bomb (100% bigger, 550lbs?) than the 250lb GP and that should make a big difference when we get the HE audit out. 

 

 

Glad you like them, we are aware of the overall picture.. You don't let us forget it ;) 

So is that why my pilot dies all the time  while I'm flying away from the drop site from who knows how high I fly anymore cause I can't figure out how high I really have to be not to get my pilot hit, but all I achieve on the ground is DMG. But my pilot dies?

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16 minutes ago, bmbm said:

 

From the Allied perspective He-111s and 109s also have "unrealistic flight models", or rather, over-perform according to our less-than-well-informed expectations... so, this is something that has an impact on both sides equally.

 

Oh, do tell bmbm, what is it that He111s do that defy your 'less than well informed expectations'. I am dying to find out....

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20 minutes ago, bmbm said:

From the Allied perspective He-111s and 109s also have "unrealistic flight models", or rather, over-perform according to our less-than-well-informed expectations... so, this is something that has an impact on both sides equally.

 

:huh:

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6 minutes ago, bogol said:

Oh, do tell bmbm, what is it that He111s do that defy your 'less than well informed expectations'. I am dying to find out....

I've never flown a real He-111, or any other of our crates IRL, so cannot compare our model to real-world performance. Seeing 111's do dive-bomber stunts without shedding wings on rapid recovery does defy my less-than-well-informed expectation. I expect that overstress modelling will rectify this across the board.

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8 hours ago, bmbm said:

The LW kit is what it is - we can’t invent a third type of fighter beside the 109 and 190. 

One could also say the Allied tank kit is what it is.  So the only viably close unit that we have in game that should be released along with the Tiger (1942) is the M10 (Produced 1942 - 1943).  The Sherman 76 (1944), Achilles (1944), and Sherman Firefly (1944) should all be held out of game for two entire tiers according to your logic.  Yet the rats have bounced those units forward for the sake of balance so the Armor game isn't completely out of whack.  

I guess that tier warping of equipment for balance only applies in one direction.

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29 minutes ago, bmbm said:

I've never flown a real He-111, or any other of our crates IRL, so cannot compare our model to real-world performance. Seeing 111's do dive-bomber stunts without shedding wings on rapid recovery does defy my less-than-well-informed expectation. I expect that overstress modelling will rectify this across the board.

Ok, so its a joke all around. Got it. I never played allied, so I cannot tell you how hard I would laugh seeing a HE111 dive bombing. (actually its more of a glide bomb, the tactic you are referring to, but who cares about details...) But I can tell you I LOL pretty darn hard every time I see a DB7 outrun an interceptor with ease. Or the best DB joke, that still amuses me to this day immensely, is the crazy loops they can pull, or how agile in a dogfight they can be. Its a good one. Joke that is... It did not yet get old for me, but for many LW it seems it did. And they ain't here no more to testify about it...

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27 minutes ago, saronin said:

One could also say the Allied tank kit is what it is.  So the only viably close unit that we have in game that should be released along with the Tiger (1942) is the M10 (Produced 1942 - 1943).  The Sherman 76 (1944), Achilles (1944), and Sherman Firefly (1944) should all be held out of game for two entire tiers according to your logic.  Yet the rats have bounced those units forward for the sake of balance so the Armor game isn't completely out of whack.  

I guess that tier warping of equipment for balance only applies in one direction.

To be fair the tiger is in much higher numbers than it really should be for 1942.  For example in the North African campaign, the allies encountered tigers twice.  I'd be all fine with it staying where it is and removing 1944 kit as long as it's numbers could be limited. 

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14 minutes ago, saronin said:

One could also say the Allied tank kit is what it is.  So the only viably close unit that we have in game that should be released along with the Tiger (1942) is the M10 (Produced 1942 - 1943).  The Sherman 76 (1944), Achilles (1944), and Sherman Firefly (1944) should all be held out of game for two entire tiers according to your logic. 

Yes.

Speaking personally I am all for historical introduction dates for all kit and let the chips fall as they may. I do not make CRS policy however. Do note though that because we don't have ALL kit (yet), and because spawnlists only control supply at an abstract level, some juggling is necessary to sustain playability. If/when we add artillery for instance, the equation should change. 

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16 hours ago, fufubear1f said:

Offtopic: Warthunders balancing is abysmal.  Planes dominate ground vehicles and planes are placed at battle ratings that make them blatantly overpowered.

 

On topic: personally I don't think the air balance is that bad fighters wise. Bomber wise I think the issue stems from the fact that the allies and axis have different types of bombers.  Allies have attack bombers while axis has a level bomber and a dive bomber.  Axis would need something like a Dornier or a Ju 88 to bridge that gap. 

Use a wirblewind in WT, then get back to me. Even the early war SPAA that's some machine guns mounted on a truck is better than what we have in this game like the flak 30. Here we spawn in walled killboxes and try to move out before the DB7s with the autohotkey setups and no G limits drop another bomb, so it doesn't take much to beat this game's air-ground balance.
 

The air balance here is also horrendous, if it weren't then there would still be regular axis air squads in the game. The equipment matchup is part of it, but I think that it's the implementation that drove everyone away. Invulnerable spitfire tails, merlin engines that soak up 4-5 20mms from the front and still keep moving. .50 cal breaks off wings and tails in sometimes less than a dozen hits due to the way energy transfer is modeled.

15 hours ago, SCKING said:

Just remember that the SC250 250Kg bomb is a much larger bomb (100% bigger, 550lbs?) than the 250lb GP and that should make a big difference when we get the HE audit out.

Unless the 250kgs can kill tanks with near-misses then they will still be worse for ground support than the 100kg. No one needs help killing soft targets with bombs.

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18 minutes ago, bogol said:

Ok, so its a joke all around. Got it. I never played allied, so I cannot tell you how hard I would laugh seeing a HE111 dive bombing. (actually its more of a glide bomb, the tactic you are referring to, but who cares about details...)

When you intercept a 111 at 7 km, see him do a hard spiral down to 3 km and then make a dive-bomb release followed by a wing-ripping recovery, you too would laugh. Granted, they are not as numerous as the DB-7 so the latter has a greater impact on perception. Again, overstress will likely curb all sorts of crazy behavior across the board, so be patient. 

WRT to speed and agility (roll rate, elevator authority etc), the DB meets all criteria AFAIK except for overstress, which is globally funked. 

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1 minute ago, bmbm said:

When you intercept a 111 at 7 km, see him do a hard spiral down to 3 km and then make a dive-bomb release followed by a wing-ripping recovery, you too would laugh. Granted, they are not as numerous as the DB-7 so the latter has a greater impact on perception. Again, overstress will likely curb all sorts of crazy behavior across the board, so be patient. 

 

Yes I would probably be amused by the scenario you describe. Lets forget for a second about stress damage, can we? A heavy dual engine plane being able to sustain numerous loops without bleeding E, that defies my less than informed expectations. Granted, I dont have a PhD in aeronautics, or aviation history, so I am more or less clueless. But I do have some clue about physics, and i'd be darned, doing maneuvers with almost no energy penalty, that really seems odd. But I am biased!

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7 minutes ago, bogol said:

But I am biased!

I'm not, despite what folks may think. 

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3 minutes ago, bmbm said:

I'm not, despite what folks may think. 

I believe in numbers.  The numbers in this case are telling the story campaign after campaign and have done so for over a decade.  The numbers are objective and CRS had ignored them.  One side has an Air Force.  The other side is left with Bogol flying by his lonesome...

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2 hours ago, bmbm said:

I haven't reflected over it but assumed the FW190-A4 was a tier 2 a/c already. Tier 1 -A1 isn't really an alternative IMO due to lateness of production and small number of units fielded. 

No it's a tier 3 aircraft. Only at the end.

A-1 and 2 were produced in 41, around 500 were produced between June of 41 and April of 42 when the A3 took over.  A4 started production in July of 42, and the A5 in November of 42.

 

The F (ground attack) came out in January of 43.  Several hundred were produced.

 

The production numbers are higher than most of the TANKS ingame let alone aircraft.  Just accounting for half of the production of A1 and A2, you are looking at almost double the entire production run of the B1Bis. And equivalent numbers to the S35. Not sure how many need to have been built to have qualified as enough built.

 

The french ordered 270 DB7s, and only received 116 of them. That number is only 14 more than the production of the FW190 A1.

 

http://acepilots.com/planes/specs.html

http://fw190.hobbyvista.com/werkn.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/French_combat_vehicle_production_during_World_War_II

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22 minutes ago, bogol said:

A heavy dual engine plane being able to sustain numerous loops without bleeding E, that defies my less than informed expectations.

Because energy that would become stress which would in turn rip control surfaces apart, simply remains energy off in the void of nothing, but inertia is active and present.
Where in real life there would have been catastrophic pilot induced failure of the airframe, there is none, so you just got the planes weight speed and intertia
shoving it along, probably better physics analogy than that but should suffice.
Same reason why you can loop an HE-111 with a full bomb load, or barrel roll it, or yank a blenheim around like it was a sopwith camel etc.

Not to say that the Havoc/DB7 does not need a general FM audit also, but we get away with an insane amount of stuff because we cant stress our airframe
and rip our wings off when we should.

When, at some point, Hatch gets that worked out and implemented, it will be a major game changer.
I predict about a month of the skies raining plane parts without a shot fired till we learn not to break our own planes.

I dont know if anyone remembers or had ever played dawn of aces, it was like warbirds but WWI, all string bag planes, and in full realism theater you had full stress damage, many intense dogfights ended with both sides pushing the limit too far and hitting the ground minus wings, elevators, etc.
 

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2 hours ago, dre21 said:

So is that why my pilot dies all the time  while I'm flying away from the drop site from who knows how high I fly anymore cause I can't figure out how high I really have to be not to get my pilot hit, but all I achieve on the ground is DMG. But my pilot dies?

Stuka? The stuka is the only plane ingame that will tell you exactly how high above the ground you are (upto 150m at least).

 

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***  perspective He-111s and 109s also have "unrealistic flight models",

[Do not make personal attacks or call names] if you think the 111 is unrealistic.

Pretty sure the 4000 to 400 sorties proves which bomber is unrealistic.

 

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Also, as far as I can find with some short term searching, the ME110 C4/B should be a tier 1(possible 0) fighter bomber, not a tier 2. Even the E and F model should be tier one not a Tier 2.

 

The 109F models (both) should be tier 1(1941), and the G1 tier 2 (1942)

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2 hours ago, saronin said:

So the only viably close unit that we have in game that should be released along with the Tiger (1942) is the M10 (Produced 1942 - 1943).  The Sherman 76 (1944), Achilles (1944), and Sherman Firefly (1944) should all be held out of game for two entire tiers according to your logic.

No.
The tiger should go into T2 where there would be NO M10, There would be M4 75mm and some M3 Lee/Grants and the other T2 regulars.
The M10 would roll in at T3,  In T4 S76 would replace some M4A2's and brits would start to get firefly and achilles, axis would of course be fielding some panthers.

Thing is, a Tigers appearance on the battlefield in T2 has to be, without exception, an absolute Holy **** moment for the allied army.
And the fact that you could locate 4 of them in the entire T2 BOF theater has to be akin to Lazarus rising from the dead for the axis army.
And losing them should be devastating enough that everyone wants to watch the tigers flanks and rear and keep it alive lest it be lost to a 4 hour factory replacement order. (Same kind of thing could sort of be said for the Matilda MKII)

Old CRS did not work out that mechanic and created the weird situation we have now, which needs corrected and is no trivial thing to do from both a programming stand point AND a playerbase standpoint, because everyone is OK with doing something historically correct to the other guy even if the other guy loses something in his teir, but they are not OK with it when it pertains to their OWN stuff and yell unsub.

Why continue creating more weird situations that just have to be corrected later to much screaming and grumbling, rather than just keep it correct in the 1st place?

 

27 minutes ago, delems said:

Pretty sure the 4000 to 400 sorties proves which bomber is unrealistic.

No just says who is flying what more, says absolutely nothing about the plane itself.
Even I can barrel roll and loop and corkscrew an HE-111, there is no stat for that, there isnt anything in stats that says "merlin51 was flying this HE-111 like it was a slow UFO cause he is brain dead and is soo lucky stress damage is not in game yet" 

It is slower and has a bigger radius than a DB7 but that is besides the point.
Ask forest about some of my factory runs, where i drifted off course, sure i got eggs  on target anyways, but i should have died
due to joystick input of me jerking and rolling and yanking the plane back over to target, and my crew should have been slammed all over the fuselage.

Every plane in game takes advantage from that lack of stress damage equally.
When that is corrected most of them, except maybe the little stuka, will be throwing parts left and right i think.
You may not even get to shoot a guy before he flies into pieces, just bounce him and scare the beejeebers out of him LoL

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2 hours ago, bmbm said:

I've never flown a real He-111, or any other of our crates IRL, so cannot compare our model to real-world performance. Seeing 111's do dive-bomber stunts without shedding wings on rapid recovery does defy my less-than-well-informed expectation. I expect that overstress modelling will rectify this across the board.

not a LW specific issue therefore you can't really hold this against HE-111s exclusively, or any plane for that matter. the simulation just lacks this feature.

 

what about 109s is over performing that isn't also the case for all other planes modeled? 

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