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Mosizlak

More bombers, same old AAA

117 posts in this topic

1 minute ago, madrebel said:

didn't say it was but until we know what the H75 should do, all we can do is argue about feelings which is fairly pointless. 

No one wants objective data here. Even if you find it and put it out there it will be ignored. 

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14 minutes ago, bmbm said:

I'll have to dig through literature but iirc H75s had a VERY positive K/D versus the 109 in BOF. Although that isn't performance numbers per se, it does tell a story. You can NOT convince me that the 109 was better or equal in turning against the H75.

That is really interesting. I wonder how was that positive KD achieved and how much of it has to do with the turning radius? 

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it doesn't say anything about the plane. the finns held like 24:1 in their buffalo fighters when those were long past obsolete. 

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39 minutes ago, madrebel said:

you love to talk about feelings and unverifiable accounts without ever presenting data fufu. when you can post data let me know.

 

do note, at no point have i said the p36 shouldn't out turn the 109. i'm asking what its performance was. thus far i'm the only one to provide any actual data to discuss. you can continue to ... idk wtf you're doing but you can continue to do it or you can help find actual data so we all have something to go on. if no actual data can be found, then we look at what we know and try to compare it to, perhaps a Ki43.

 

For such a terrible plane, the 109 sure seemed to compete just fine against those wonders of physics like the P-51. What were the top speeds again of the K4 vs the P51D/K? The horse power difference ... what was it again? 

Look at my first link.  There is a RAF test which compares it to both the spitfire and 109E to the Hawk (which it out turned both).  My second source was the only one about feelings but that was in support of my first one.

 

I've posted real world data.

 

Ahh another off-topic tangent.  Pro tip do not compare the Mustang and the 109.  The 109 looses in almost every aspect (especially in speed).

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go on, show me how the P51D/K compares. if the P51 is so aerodynamically perfect, why isn't it faster than the K4?

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57 minutes ago, saronin said:

No one wants objective data here. Even if you find it and put it out there it will be ignored. 

Welcome to the internet.. Its not just here

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1 minute ago, madrebel said:

go on, show me how the P51D/K compares. if the P51 is so aerodynamically perfect, why isn't it faster than the K4?

It is faster...

Power curve

V-1650-3_7_power_curve.jpg

http://kurfurst.org/Engine/DB60x/DB605_datasheets_DC.html

Speed

P-51_B_High_Speed_Performance.jpg

5026-26_DCStart_noMW_geschw.jpg

 

So 2000 ps and still slower than the Mustang doing just over 1800 hp (I'm comparing sea level speeds since that's the best way to test aerodynamics).

 

Sorry all for dragging this off-topic.  This is my last post on that matter.

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1 hour ago, bogol said:

That is really interesting. I wonder how was that positive KD achieved and how much of it has to do with the turning radius? 

I have a really nice book, "Curtiss au combat - Le Groupe de Chasse 1/5 dans la campagne de France" that offers some insight. Manoeuvrability is just one part of the equation - pilot quality is ALWAYS all the more important, and they were very good. I'll dig out a few quotes some day.

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1 hour ago, fufubear1f said:

So 2000 ps and still slower than the Mustang doing just over 1800 hp (I'm comparing sea level speeds since that's the best way to test aerodynamics).

 

Sorry all for dragging this off-topic.  This is my last post on that matter.

Thats a P51 B graph not a D, D was slower as I'm sure you're aware which is why you selected the B numbers. That's fine.

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1 hour ago, madrebel said:

 D was slower as I'm sure you're aware which is why you selected the B numbers. That's fine.

Incorrect unless you are comparing different manifold pressures.  I picked the B because finding a chart for the P51D running anything but 67" is very hard and I'd rather not bug my friends to help me find one.  Anyway even if the D was slower than the B (which is possible due to its bubble canopy but I haven't seen data that confirms that only the words of very knowledgeable people), it wouldn't drop +20kph to the point that the 109K could catch it.  The US wouldnt have put that in service (or they would have just skipped to the P51H).

P51B (make sure to look at the 67" line).

P-51B_24777_Speed_Altitude.jpg

P51D (the furthest line)

P-51D_15342_Level.jpg

  Both are tested with wing racks so they are actually faster than this.  This is also with around 1600hp for 67" HG with the V1650-7.

 

I know I said I was done before but this post was too facepalm worthy that I had to respond to it.  You don't compare speed with a Mustang unless you are a Jet or a Tempest.  Well youll probably find some way to squeeze out of accepting the facts somehow like claim the Mustang D never ran 72" or 75".  

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CRS has done enough to funk up Allied equipment already...

Bogol come fly the Db with me and Rans, you just might change your mind about it.

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55 minutes ago, bus0 said:

CRS has done enough to funk up Allied equipment already...

Bogol come fly the Db with me and Rans, you just might change your mind about it.

Last time I went there (in a discussion about Allied equipment) it did not end well for the thread in question. So, thanks bus0 for the invite, but I will have to just continue to watch them DB7 to beautiful aerobatics. 

Regarding flying allied, maybe after LW really has some numbers to oppose you guys, I might give it a honest try for a campaign. 

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5 hours ago, bogol said:

Last time I went there (in a discussion about Allied equipment) it did not end well for the thread in question. So, thanks bus0 for the invite, but I will have to just continue to watch them DB7 to beautiful aerobatics. 

Regarding flying allied, maybe after LW really has some numbers to oppose you guys, I might give it a honest try for a campaign. 

So in other words you're never going Allied.

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5 hours ago, bogol said:

but I will have to just continue to watch them DB7 to beautiful aerobatics. 

No.
Just wait till stress damage is worked out
Then you can giggle at how many of them rip the wings off, though it may be a wee bit disappointing when they self destruct before you get to shoot them.

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1 hour ago, merlin51 said:

No.
Just wait till stress damage is worked out
Then you can giggle at how many of them rip the wings off, though it may be a wee bit disappointing when they self destruct before you get to shoot them.

next friday?

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I've had really good luck with the SPAA gun. It would be nice to see a few of them as fixed guns in town that we could man.

Also, the only way I can hit a plane is to tune out the gunsights. If you look at the sights you will always miss. Trust your tracers.

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21 hours ago, bogol said:

 beautiful aerobatics. 

Regarding flying allied, maybe after LW really has some numbers to oppose you guys, I might give it a honest try for a campaign. 

when you're ready, come find the truth, it will take you more then '1 camp'...

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