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World War II Online is a Massively Multiplayer Online First Person Shooter based in Western Europe between 1939 and 1943. Through land, sea, and air combat using a ultra-realistic game engine, combined with a strategic layer, in the largest game world ever created - We offer the best WWII simulation experience around.

waldojr

i refuse to fly or use an AAA gun.

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BMBM
3 minutes ago, madrebel said:

allied pilots have this choice. LW pilots don't.

Duh. Try to B&Z in a Spit much? Have you tried turning a H87 against a 109F lately? 

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madrebel

BnZ in a spit is easy. you keep posting bmbm and the game will continue to be how it is. you've offered no real reason for why nor any real solutions. that's fine, i'm not trying to be right here either per se. just that, the game is how it is today. it used to be different. many iterations have lead to where we are.

 

i'd go back and mine some data looking at when my game had the healthiest pilot numbers. then i'd look at how the game/gameplay was at the time and compare it to now. it seems the numbers have never really been balanced in this game. prior to 109FM fix 1.0 the luftwaffe has numbers. much of this was due to the brick d520, flopcane, and all RCMG planes added to buggy HE in LW cannons etc. I get it. The numbers have been lopsided toward the allies since the 109 1.0 fix, then they got worse with TOEs, then weather ... again numbers got worse for the LW. numbers are obvsiouly down everywhere but nothing worse than the LW numbers.

 

if my suggestions aren't it fine, pretty stupid on your part to just say there is no problem when the in game reality doesn't back you up though.

Edited by madrebel
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dre21
Quote

-* Bombable airfields is a concept that would strike both ways. Are you sure you want it? What if all your forward airfields are bombed and there's nothing to spawn*

I have been proposing this idea now for some time. Yes it goes both way  , but it would actually give the Bombers not only new targets ( and let's be honest we lost so many bomber pilots because of the lack of targets in game) 

Here are the upsides of Bombable Airfields , it would keep fighters on search and destroy missions instead of just buzzing FBs,  Fighters  would not  always be around towns or FBs, but have another purpose and would actually have to defend their Airfields.

The ground troops maybe can set more FMS again , cause the way we have it now , either a Truck will get strafed before it even gets close to town or the FMS get bombed right away and a good ground fight is really hard to get off to a good start. ( or do u think a player will keep trying running a truck over and over just to feed some fighter jock kills ? No they will quit either log or use another unit cause they just got sick of trying)

The Bomber pilots would have another target.

yes it will go both ways but I see nothing but a good change for the ground guys , and the pilots will need to choose  , Run RDP , protect Airfield in search and destroy missions, or go on CAS and escort Bombers to town for surpression , each decision will have a ripple effect in game which in my eyes will make the game so much more appealing. 

 

Only the * was supposed to be in quotes , the rest is my response to said quote , sorry if it seems a bit confusing.

 

Edited by dre21

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fufubear1f

If p51 arrived tomorrow it wouldn't be the worst plane since it would have speed and high speed agility but it wouldn't shine for sure.  Spit mk9 would be better in 90% of situations because the meta of the air is to fly from close airfields to support the ground.  

 

If bombers had bigger incentives to fly those long range RDP missions maybe that could change (and cutting down the amount of Db7/Havoc mk1s in exchange for proper level bombers like wellingtons or b25s) and we'd could start seeing cool things like fighter sweeps and high altitude escorts. I have no idea how to increase incentives though.

 

I'm relatively new to the game so I haven't experienced the old iterations of the air war but I do know that this version is basically a slightly better version of the wings of liberty server in IL2 bos.  In other words it gets boring fast for anyone who wants more than high intensity dogfights. 

 

Sidenote can there be an increase in xp gained.  I've killed multiple planes in one flight to barely be rewarded any xp. Gaining ranks and better planes is a real pita for any new pilot.

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BMBM
20 minutes ago, madrebel said:

BnZ in a spit is easy.

Well, yes, depends on your definition :D

It's good for very limited B&Z IMHO, where your prey is essentially static and close at hand. It cannot B&Z like the FW, or the H87, or the Bell, in long and deep runs because of compressibility - again, in my experience. 

26 minutes ago, madrebel said:

I'd go back and mine some data looking at when my game had the healthiest pilot numbers. then i'd look at how the game/gameplay was at the time and compare it to now.

Even if there is that kind of data, which I doubt, it'd be futile to make the comparison. Apples and oranges.

29 minutes ago, madrebel said:

if my suggestions aren't it fine, pretty stupid on your part to just say there is no problem when the in game reality doesn't back you up though.

Watch it with the epithets. We are looking at the same issue from different perspectives - and your particular perception of reality may not be universally true.

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BMBM

BTW, I think that the worst disservice LW (or any perceived disadvantaged party) can do is to perpetuate a defeatist attitude. Sure, it's kinda hard to deal with Spits and heck yea the A2A fighting is pretty one-dimensional on the deck at the AO - but it IS the players who has the power to change that, to adapt and to create circumstances that are more to their liking.

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madrebel
30 minutes ago, bmbm said:

Watch it with the epithets. We are looking at the same issue from different perspectives - and your particular perception of reality may not be universally true.

You're right, I've flown extensively for both sides in game and you haven't. Even for your old squad for awhile. The current state of the game hurts the LW more and the numbers back that up.

 

How can the player change it? All the planes are at the nearest AF, and the player can't bomb them. There is no attrition anymore, just flag rotation. The only point of presence is the nearest AF. The 'Flak warning and get out of jail free system' kicks in at a little over 6km so this is a minimum of 6km tail warning, that's already half a square of safety. How much further is the AO? Another few KM until you leave the safety of your flak screen to the safety of your lufberry of friendly air over the AO? Where is the choice the LW pilot has? How exactly do you attack that other than just start at high alt and work your way down? The problem is, you're within very safe and easy diving distance back to your AF and or the lufberry circle of friendlies below, and or the short run to your flak screen?

 

where is the choice there bmbm? LW doesn't have the option to just go down low and slug it out while maintaining a competitive advantage. to do so greatly stacks the deck against you because your plane takes a lot more work to fight that fight. or, rather, takes a different approach but a controlling approach none the less. you just don't have the same reversal options and you know that. The way we used to deal with this, can't even be done anymore. We used to be able to slow the flow by feasting on the ingress lanes. Even that didn't stop air quake but it did at least slow it down. If we had the option to shutdown airfields we now have some ability to actually change the game again. Just this alone extends the field and opens up the ingress lanes again AND it finally gets rid of the awful ground gameplay that happens with air fields literally on the front. 

 

spits are trivial to deal with when you can dictate the engagement, even with the broken FM/DM.

Edited by madrebel

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bersi

I remember a time where i could turnfight spits in a E4 or F4 easily.

but thats some years ago.

last time i played i had my problems to do it,maybe because im rusty or my stick was broken or some changes had happend or they all used some rudder tunings i dont know.

Bnz is ok but not much fun

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BMBM
5 minutes ago, madrebel said:

The current state of the game hurts the LW more and the numbers back that up.

I’ve flown enough LW to have a fair grasp of the challenges, including a full tour exclusively in the Stuka and another with 56th in toto - and seeing how the LW act from the other side of the hill is just as revealing. 

The woe is us attitude that keeps getting repeated ad nauseam does more to break LW morale than anything IMHO.

if Spits are so trivial to deal with, what IS your problem? I don’t need to lecture on drag/bag tactics do I?

The distance dilemma poised by AFs too close to the frontline is shared by anyone doing B&Z. Try it in a Bell and you’ll see it’s just the same.

 

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madrebel

why are you being so thick? i'm putting in good detail what the issues are, and then you ask what my problem is. mother [censored] re-read the posts if you don't get it. all the things that used to allow for dealing with not only spits but also numbers imbalance are no longer part of the game. 

disagree all you want but you have literally nothing backing you up other than your feelings ... btw how long were you gone from the game again? cause you stopped playing regularly as i recall just before TOEs and the just after the 109 flop. now, i haven't played regularly in some time however ... you act like you've been here day in day out ... with a total of less than 1500 posts.

 

perhaps you don't have your finger on the pulse as much as you think? how exactly is your opinion one anyone should put any stock in what soever - when you weren't even really here for RDP's hey day and the demise of the LW's numbers. do explain this for everyone and regale us with your wisdom - tell us all how the things we experienced whilst you were away aren't true.

 

 

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BMBM

Keep your shirt on. I'm VERY aware and familiar with the scenario you describe and NO it is NOT an exclusively LW issue however hard you try to make it so. The same distance/flak/get-out-of-jail-free dilemma is equally in play for AOs near LW airfields.

My preference is to work the AO-inbound lane just like you describe and YES it is hard but certainly not impossible. You DO have to have some level of organization to deal with it though. As a lonewolf there is only so much you can do I'll give you that, and YES it is pretty hard to make a dent when the enemy outnumbers you. Them's the breaks! 

I too WOULD like to see longer flight distances and high altitude interception battles, but the majority of pilots don't like that: to the contrary they crave yet shorter flight distances - the last nail in the coffin for the air war would be the airstrip PPO. 

I'm done with this discussion. You will NOT get more LW in the air by repeating the same stale and depressing mantras. You will only do so by setting a positive example, not by joining (or leading) the orchestra of tiny violins.

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Ltarflak

Answer this question: when was the last time you heard the allies say "oh great, the axis are doing air quake again! "......I will tell you the answer, NEVER, because our bombers are slower than sh#t, our bombers have never locked down an AB or FB. Our bombers take 1 hit MAYBE 2 and explode, but yet i say a DB-7 take 10 hits until he crashed and exploded, and i didnt even get a kill, i got 2 hits....

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bmw2

I don't fly much, it's never really been my thing. But every so often i'll go LW and fly a few sorties. So my 2 cents regarding the LW situation these days is...safety in numbers. If your lone wolfing your chances of surviving are pretty damn low. If you fly with a couple others you MIGHT be safe. 

This is why the loss of most of our LW squads is sad...becasue unless there is coordination and you have the safety in numbers...odd's are your getting jumped by 2-3 spits. 

However, I still believe that the LW game would be a bit more successful if players coordinated their air game. $miss LW missions get 3-4 fighters on an AF and take off together. No matter whatever advantages or disadvantages Allied planes have over Axis - at least you got some back up. 

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Merlin51
31 minutes ago, Ltarflak said:

Answer this question: when was the last time you heard the allies say "oh great, the axis are doing air quake again! "......I will tell you the answer, NEVER, because our bombers are slower than sh#t,

Just before Forest went on vacation, and flew the entire LW Bomber fleet by himself and  put the allied factories into oblivion By himself
while you cried the entire time he was doing it that it was impossible.
The man flew 6 aircraft at the same time, HE-111's, by himself.
No one flew as escort, no one came as tailgunner, nothing.

And he shut french resupply as close to off as it goes.
So until you can even come close to doing a fraction of what he did by himself , you dont get to talk about bombers

Edited by merlin51

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madrebel
28 minutes ago, bmbm said:

Keep your shirt on. I'm VERY aware and familiar with the scenario you describe and NO it is NOT an exclusively LW issue however hard you try to make it so. The same distance/flak/get-out-of-jail-free dilemma is equally in play for AOs near LW airfields.

My preference is to work the AO-inbound lane just like you describe and YES it is hard but certainly not impossible. You DO have to have some level of organization to deal with it though. As a lonewolf there is only so much you can do I'll give you that, and YES it is pretty hard to make a dent when the enemy outnumbers you. Them's the breaks! 

I too WOULD like to see longer flight distances and high altitude interception battles, but the majority of pilots don't like that: to the contrary they crave yet shorter flight distances - the last nail in the coffin for the air war would be the airstrip PPO. 

I'm done with this discussion. You will NOT get more LW in the air by repeating the same stale and depressing mantras. You will only do so by setting a positive example, not by joining (or leading) the orchestra of tiny violins.

fitting, tucking tail and running when you're backed into a corner.

 

every new game mechanic has favored allied planes. i'm not suggesting this was purposeful nor do i contend any version of crs has purposely 'done this' to the LW. however reality is what it is. there is no LW.

 

as ADA I've lost countless 109 kills to Otto the AI either at AFs, over AOs, or the worst the behind the lines AI. countless, but i've never seen a single EA hovering at 2KM with 4+ enemy circling this behind the lines get out of jail free card like i have as LW. it isn't so much how the planes perform, its how the planes perform in relation to the game's mechanics. currently, all game mechanics favor planes that turn well.

 

the game completely lacks design mechanics that favor speed, altitude, or planning. you're choosing to focus on the music the orchestra is playing with their tiny violins. i on the other hand am asking you why there is an orchestra in the first place. you're looking back at me telling me there is no reason this orchestra can't play classical instead of blues - and i'll ask you again ...

 

why does the orchestra exist in the first place?

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Hardlead

Just a FYI, I think Ltarflak was refering to the air quake experience from a recieving point of view.

Dont you also, really?

As a reciever of a bomb, anyone is entitled to have an opinion on bombers.

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BMBM
40 minutes ago, madrebel said:

the game completely lacks design mechanics that favor speed, altitude, or planning.

Only in terms of not having a full set of bombers and the reason to put them to strategic use. I'm pretty sure, based on experience from other games with a full planeset, that even if we had Ju88s, Lancs, B17s and what have you, you'd see the majority of them driving a bee line for the AO rather than march in formation to distant factories.

The game has ALWAYS had perpetual on the deck furballs, from day one onwards. In that regard it differs very little from any other title out there, because that's what people want and pay for: furball jollies.

I'm not entirely sure what you hope to achieve with your posts. What exactly are you suggesting that CRS do to help the LW along? Pro tip: more clear sky is not going to do it. 

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madrebel

clear sky will absolutely be a step in the right direction. i know a lot of guys who quit over this on all sides. this was put in the game in part to add 'flavor' but also to alleviate air quake. this one feature has been backed in and out of the game how many times and yet its still here? the answer was always give the ground guys much better and far more numerous AA options, not add an ugly graphic affect that makes people log off man. that's just bad design, not this team's fault ... but they still haven't really done anything here yet. actually that isnt true, to be fair this team is thus far delivering the correct fix - more AA options. great first step with SPAA, we need more ground AA. this was always the right answer not weather that only negatively impacts one population in the game. a now diminished population.

bringing back non AO centric action would bring people back. this will also be true for ground interdiction missions. lots of people loved doing these missions.

adding non factory strategic assets to attack and defend that aren't AO centric, would bring people back. air fields need to be the priority because as you mention, online video games will always favor the path of least resistance. why is it too much to ask to change the location/proximity of that path if i do as you suggest and lead from in game a mission or series of missions to shut down the local AF with other players? 

 

further, no other game offers what this game world could in terms of persistent strategy. likely yes, people would still fly like morons however even in the old flawed RDP there were a few moments of perfection. one time a flight of 111s i was escorting flew through ... pretty sure it was the dambusters and like 60 planes merged at 5km not far from Antwerp air space. It was enough planes that visual limits were causing stuff to pop in and out. I had a few moments like that, those moments could not exist in other games on the market. they either wouldn't be that big, that organic, or that potentially impact to a ground war raging on the ground.

 

further its silly to say things like bombable AFs would ruin the game. Based on what? Some experience you had in some other game somewhere that plays nothing like ww2online? Why would we do it like that? Why couldn't we scale the damage based on population? Why couldn't it be done in such a way as to add to the game?

 

All you're saying is "nu uh" and or "there isn't a LW specific issue" or some other silly side biased tribal rant while dodging the question. so i'll ask again, bmbm, why is there an in game population problem for the LW? its not anything mentioned thus far apparently so you explain it.  

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waldojr

The main problem with German bombers is, and any bomber is the 700m visible limit.  You fly a 111 at that level, and the AAA will just knock you out if a pilot doesn't get your slow [censored] first before you get to the target.   The Air game would be immensely different if the bombs could kill ei or vehicles above 1k.   I bring in a 111 at 2k and drop my bombs correctly on the town filled with people, and you will get nothing because you could not see them.  THis would allow bombers to do level bombing at decent alt and bring those low flying allied up into a higher alt air battle helping to equal out the game.  It would spread out players among different levels of alt instead of the air quake hugging the ground and destroying everything in massive numbers.  However, thoughts like this can not happen if people refuse to see an imbalance, whether it is the population of players on a side, fighting style, or the equipment.  This post was started to get people to react and discuss it because there is something wrong but I can't pinpoint it because they are a bunch of small issues that equal a big one, so no one issue is going to be sole cause or fix.  You so-called defeatist attitude is exactly the opposite but more to bring awareness to something that people can tell isn't right, but no one can put their fingers on it.  I have a challenge to the flyers of WWIIONLINE, all axis flyers fly exclusively allied fro 1 campaign and all allied flyers do the same and switch to axis flight.  Every single one, then and only then we see if it is a problem of pop, skill, equipment, etc.   I would seriously like to see what happens!

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madrebel

vehicles yes, EI are technically likely best kept off the list. meaning, you may want to not include AI for performance reasons. to be fair, 111s weren't well suited to low level operations and were massacred when they were employed this way over stalingrad. 111 is a medium altitude medium bomber from the inter-war period. 

 

again here is a game problem that stems from a game decision years ago that favors the allies. again, not intentionally however, the allies were given a lighter faster bomber to make up for MASSIVE disparity that used to exist and still does albeit to a much lesser extent now with the hurri2c. Still, germany was given the he111 and told this was an advantage for RDP. doesn't matter what was or wasn't ... all that matters is the entire reason the germans got the 111 and its supposed advantage ... as a 'better' strategic bomber have been grossly undermined by the gutting of RDP's effect on the game.

 

the db7 and havoc are as effective as they've always been as CAS planes - regardless of the state of RDP's abilty to influence the game. now you've got people like waldo trying to employ the 111 in a mission type it really wasn't good at coming away with a bad experience. 

 

but it will likely be easier to get the macchi fighters in game rather than design all new game play elements that would need code to pull off. with those at least the average axis LTAP has something to turn tight circles in.

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OLDZEKE
10 minutes ago, waldojr said:

The main problem with German bombers is, and any bomber is the 700m visible limit.  You fly a 111 at that level, and the AAA will just knock you out if a pilot doesn't get your slow [censored] first before you get to the target.   The Air game would be immensely different if the bombs could kill ei or vehicles above 1k.   I bring in a 111 at 2k and drop my bombs correctly on the town filled with people, and you will get nothing because you could not see them.  THis would allow bombers to do level bombing at decent alt and bring those low flying allied up into a higher alt air battle helping to equal out the game.  It would spread out players among different levels of alt instead of the air quake hugging the ground and destroying everything in massive numbers.  However, thoughts like this can not happen if people refuse to see an imbalance, whether it is the population of players on a side, fighting style, or the equipment.  This post was started to get people to react and discuss it because there is something wrong but I can't pinpoint it because they are a bunch of small issues that equal a big one, so no one issue is going to be sole cause or fix.  You so-called defeatist attitude is exactly the opposite but more to bring awareness to something that people can tell isn't right, but no one can put their fingers on it.  I have a challenge to the flyers of WWIIONLINE, all axis flyers fly exclusively allied fro 1 campaign and all allied flyers do the same and switch to axis flight.  Every single one, then and only then we see if it is a problem of pop, skill, equipment, etc.   I would seriously like to see what happens!

Visable limit on inf is 700m, vislist limit on inf is 1k. This was lowered because the folks flying complained of "stutters" when flying over battle areas.

Vehicles, tanks trucks, aa/atgs vislist and visual should be around 2.5k. So a level bomb run at 2km above a town won't score inf hits/kills but should score hits/kills on any vehicles that a bomb lands on/near.

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waldojr

You have to dive in below 1.5k to get them to render then you can come back up and bomb them. 

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waldojr

I can dive bomb with a 111 and get all the kills I want but it is a suicide mission meaning I will get killed in the dive or coming out of it.

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OLDZEKE

Not to score vehicles you don't just needs be within 2.5k

 

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waldojr

same with a Stuka,  I have to have people on the ground mark a tank, then I dive at the mark, then when I am about 1k it will render and I can adjust to the vehicle to get the kill.   that didn't bother me because I could work around it, back in the day  I was an excellent 111 bomber, we would come in level and carpet bomb towns, factories you name it and get any kill we wanted.  Back in the day, I ran off of  a computer that could hardly handle the game and got 11fps on average. I got a better computer to play the game and it was nerfed lol.  My game runs at 420fps on my True 4k hdr tv at 120 refreshes.  WheI turn v-sync on that is when I get massive stuttering, Nvidia has this awesome option to do Fast v-sync, meaning the video card runs unconstrained but drops any frames above refresh rate.

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