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madrebel

Fixing the airwar

145 posts in this topic

I was asking our Community and Game Management team about this topic some more. Just wanted to drop a note here to say I'll look at this with more detail over this weekend as I'm keen to learn more about how we can improve the air game resulting into better game play and more pilots being in the air.

S! 

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Well, if you found in testing that it was too easy to keep a large amount of AF's down, depending on cause, you could
increase the static bomb load required, or if pop based you could add a modifier for that like cap timers and spawn delay have.
Or a combination of both if that is what you found was needed in testing.

AO?
I am not sure, as we are not capturing anything, and unlike a bridge, we do not have to assign and shuttle people out to do repair duty
It will fix itself.
If it was an AO, i would almost have to say it would need to be a new category of AO so it does not count in the land attack group.
Other wise when pop only allowed for 1 ground AO, air could not even try to run a bombing op.

Not to mention, the same mechanic you take an AF down could be reused on non AF's to add more air objectives.
So i am not sure on the AO part?

Just like when eventually more naval specific means of play come about, they also may need their own AO category so one ground attack
does not cut out the possibility of a naval op
 

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From a strictly Technical point of view it'd be possible.  Of course I do none of the modeling, terrain, or underlying code so I'd have to speculate on the time it'd take to complete.  

We can create a rearm/resupply PPO, then set the damage threshold so stupid high that it'd take dozens of bombs to blow, and limit damage to only certain weapon types (as has been done with FMS). 

The more beyond that that is added though would complicate things. 

Making 'add ons'  for spawning different things  (infantry and a billion AAA for field defense) is doable (again see FMS), but the more variety of things added the more complicated it becomes. 

Things such as visible damage would be harder to do - in a perfect world, having a crater appear where a bomb impacts would be awesome, but since our terrain is not deform-able,  it'd be a bit of work and would require re-writing the entirety of the terrain engine.  We could go the route of multiple damaged states (tripped at a % of total damage), but that'd require creation of all the different state models.  

We could create a PPO 'crater' (similar to the fighting position, but round) and have it appear at impact points (simulating a 'crater'(kind of)), but then we'd have to allow stacking of PPO's on top of each other (which at times would be awesome).     

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33 minutes ago, B2K said:

From a strictly Technical point of view it'd be possible.       

What specifically is technically possible? PPO airfields or static airfields that can be shut down via bombing, similar to how factories work? Merlin and I aren't talking about PPOs, we're talking static airfields.

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1 minute ago, madrebel said:

What specifically is technically possible? PPO airfields or static airfields that can be shut down via bombing, similar to how factories work? Merlin and I aren't talking about PPOs, we're talking static airfields.

everything is technically possible given enough time.   I had made it to dre21's post when i made my reply. 

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fair nuff

 

*edit* and for the record - i dont think anyone is wholly opposed to the idea of a PPO/FMS airfield. its just, what problem is that really solving? not enough AFs? again, there were more historically than what we have, do that first. if our bases of operation can be knocked out near the front though, now we have something a PPO airfield can solve for. If those too are vulnerable to bombs, all the better as that is now even more to do for planes. ultimately it's asking for the same thing but starting with static AFs starts at the lowest level and builds up.

Edited by madrebel

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14 hours ago, madrebel said:

what problem is that really solving? not enough AFs?

Not enough AF's isn't nearly as much of a problem as not enough people playing this game, notably in the air roles. Perhaps the two are linked somewhat, but I doubt lack of AF's is all that much of an impact as it's only applied to select map states. 

There's some great ideas in this thread, but the focus of this game's leadership needs to be bringing more people in and keeping them around. You're not doing that with the sub model currently, at least at it's current price.

And before anyone comes in here saying "subs are up! population is up!" I have two things to say to you. First is that steam numbers are negligible now. I know those aren't total population numbers, but they're in addition to those playing the game organically - which is very small. You can literally count on two hands the numbers spawned in on both sides at times. Also, the welcome back soldier program has boosted those playing, but in this month alone, so recent numbers, even though still not good overall, are actually higher than the norm (note - proves more people play when it's free). Secondly, if the game's current population trend is being seen as acceptable by the current management/players to a point of rebuttal when criticized on pop numbers, I don't have much faith in them to deliver the gameplay this game so desperately needs

Consider doing something like going full free to play with a grind system (NOT pay to win!). Your gameplay is begging you.

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i'd caution f2p for now. once this current roadmap is complete i think that is a more attractive option. debt is being paid off, new things are being added to address long standing gaps. if we can sneak in some new gameplay and get blue skies again i think a follow up free to play, multi month welcome back solider, etc on the heels brings back folks we've lost and new blood too. 

 

there still isn't anything like the old airgame in ww2ol in the market. aceshigh still suffers from its long standing issues that many ww2ol players just never really dug. the shoebox sims while breath taking, just fail to deliver interesting PvP. warthunder ... is just a shoebox with lipstick and 'mmo' features. still 16v16 max though.

 

the map, the size of it and how our game functions though offer a market unique experience that used to be enjoyed by a lot of folks. the reasons why aren't 100% the same for all but essentially the straw piled up and eventually one of those straws broke each of our backs. for some it was weather, for some the 109FM, for some AWS, for some the hyper concentrated combat zones and stacked flags that TOEs caused ... all of that can be changed. if it is changed, and a new gameplay element is added - the people who loved what this game offers now have a reason to play again and those seeking what we have, may try it and stick around longer.

 

what should be obvious by now though is that the way things are now and the iterations over the years have caused scores of dedicated paying subscribers to leave. i know this is the case for the ground too, but im specifically talking about the dedicated pilots we've lost. most of these guys didn't give half a [censored] about the ground war at all. i won't ever suggest stopping production on the ground game, however i will point out that the ground game has significantly more market competition. this is good, but also bad. more people to possibly attract, but higher expectations.

 

there is NOTHING like ww2ol for flight sims. NOTHING. there is a good sized community of simulation fans, specifically ww2 era piston fighters. the question then ... might this not be the best place to spend a bit of development time? if we are trying to attract players that stick around, shouldn't we take a moment to flesh out the areas where we truly and uniquely shine? again, keep pushing new stuff for the ground, absolutely, preferably more AA guns too ... how long though before the air aspect of this game gets something new to do? it's been over a decade since RDP was first added yes? then it was castrated. then a bunch of crap weather put in to make it harder to fly. 

 

its time to fix this. 

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21 hours ago, madrebel said:

What specifically is technically possible? PPO airfields or static airfields that can be shut down via bombing, similar to how factories work? Merlin and I aren't talking about PPOs, we're talking static airfields.

Merlin and you aint the only ones talking in this thread...

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Being an LTAP, I think the air game would be improved by:

1. More variety of axis aircraft, especially planes that have bombs.  LTAPS like bombing because your not up against aces who shoot you down in thirty seconds after encountering them.

2.  More stuff to bomb, for obvious reasons.

3. A high performance axis bomber like the JU88.  111’s are certain sucicide and difficult to aim bombs with.  Stukas are fun but have a limited number of bombs and are slow.

4.  I liked the lower cloud altitude (1000 m) because it was easier to hide from aaa after bombing and evade enemy fighters.  2000m is too high.  1500m would be better.

5.  Increase ground unit visibility from altitude.  It is much more fun seeing what you are trying to bomb rather than dropping a load in the blind and waiting to despawn to if you hit anything.

Edited by GrAnit

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16 minutes ago, GrAnit said:

4.  I liked the lower cloud altitude (1000 m) because it was easier to hide from aaa after bombing and evade enemy fighters.  2000m is too high.  1500m would be better.

5.  Increase ground unit visibility from altitude.  It is much more fun seeing what you are trying to bomb rather than dropping a load in the blind and waiting to despawn to if you hit anything.

4 cost us a LOT of players. you'd rather have your fog layer or wingmen to escort for you or be additional targets increasing your general odds of survival? 

5 extends beyond just A2G spotting but you're right. However, A2A spotting isn't good enough either. Contrails would help, planes being visible further somehow, blue skies for more contrast with the grey dots we're trying to hunt ... let's hope 64bit buys us head room here. In theory, it should. 

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1 hour ago, GrAnit said:

Being an LTAP, I think the air game would be improved by:

1. More variety of axis aircraft, especially planes that have bombs.  LTAPS like bombing because your not up against aces who shoot you down in thirty seconds after encountering them.

2.  More stuff to bomb, for obvious reasons.

3. A high performance axis bomber like the JU88.  111’s are certain sucicide and difficult to aim bombs with.  Stukas are fun but have a limited number of bombs and are slow.

4.  I liked the lower cloud altitude (1000 m) because it was easier to hide from aaa after bombing and evade enemy fighters.  2000m is too high.  1500m would be better.

5.  Increase ground unit visibility from altitude.  It is much more fun seeing what you are trying to bomb rather than dropping a load in the blind and waiting to despawn to if you hit anything.

1. Yes 2. Yes 3. Yes. 4 I hated it, was impossible to dogfight on the deck. at least with 2k you can dogfight on the deck. 5. Yes. 

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On 3/23/2018 at 8:58 PM, madrebel said:

4 cost us a LOT of players. you'd rather have your fog layer or wingmen to escort for you or be additional targets increasing your general odds of survival? 

 

This is something some people refuse to comprehend. 

 Did we REALLY lose players because it was sunny all the time? Did we lose players because of NO weather? 

Or did we lose a lot of players because the part of their game became unplayable when the weather was introduced? 

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59 minutes ago, moe5000 said:

This is something some people refuse to comprehend. 

 Did we REALLY lose players because it was sunny all the time? Did we lose players because of NO weather? 

Or did we lose a lot of players because the part of their game became unplayable when the weather was introduced? 

To be fair, if all you ever did was pound the virtual ground our old pilot numbers at times felt really terrible. there used to be that time you literally could not push out of a FB or AB. that easily leads to the perception that - we need help from weather to protect us from the evil airquake.

 

valid perception. true perception. however, terribly flawed hypothesis as it fails to account for - well ... everything else. 

 

this argument was made by me and many others at the time, a MASSIVE part of the problem is we have nothing else to do but fight over the right to either bomb or strafe squishies. that's it. in addition to that the ground lacked AA options/firepower, there was no other type of gameplay. RDP counted for a brief second and we literally had 100 HE-111s in a single flight once with my squad, jg52, jg54, and as i recall most of jg26 roughly 50 pilots and the entirety of the top 25 fighters list in that escort mission. thats what we that players did when we had something else to do that mattered. IDK what the largest raid the Dambusters put up however I intercepted a few of their raids that caused issues with the visible limitations. Point is, we used to have a TON of guys willing to do this ... oh and the AOs still had CAS going on.

 

neutering RDP was justified for many reasons but it was still done. weather was added. that's a double negative that hurt. if we can add another meaningful target - my suggestion is AFs, perhaps consider making RDP a weekend focused event thing, and ripping out the cancer that is weather we might move the meter on pilot subs.

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The 2nd biggest thing is the way certain planes absorb damage and keep flying. 

Ask @manhattan how many times I hit his db7 with 40mm tonight at Bertrix. 

 

 5 the first sortie and he RTBed to Bertrix with one engine, no kill. 4 the 2nd sortie and he bombed me, no kill and probably an RTB. 

Also hit 2 spitfires with multiple 40mm at Stenay this evening, no kill, and they still rolled out at high speed after taking damage. 

It's enough to make me quit using AAA, I can't imagine how the air guys feel. HE audit MIGHT help this, but a DM audit of those planes would do immeasurably more. 

 

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On 3/25/2018 at 9:33 PM, moe5000 said:

The 2nd biggest thing is the way certain planes absorb damage and keep flying. 

Ask @manhattan how many times I hit his db7 with 40mm tonight at Bertrix. 

 

 5 the first sortie and he RTBed to Bertrix with one engine, no kill. 4 the 2nd sortie and he bombed me, no kill and probably an RTB. 

Also hit 2 spitfires with multiple 40mm at Stenay this evening, no kill, and they still rolled out at high speed after taking damage. 

It's enough to make me quit using AAA, I can't imagine how the air guys feel. HE audit MIGHT help this, but a DM audit of those planes would do immeasurably more. 

 

This... I got lots of hits at turn the other day but only 1/4 resulted in dead planes. The rest of them were *killed* after RTB'ing. The spits and bombers needed 3+ 40mm's

 

LW was always low-pop with the broken 09, remember when they were non existent for entire camps.

Onlyin the last year pop has been kind of ok.

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There core problem of the air war is fairly easy to discover, just take a look at the numbers:

https://stats.wwiionline.com/weaponclasscomparison.php

 

 

type

Kills

deaths

Ratio

Allies

UK

Fighter

5,784

2,823

2.05

Allies

France

Fighter

1,464

1,021

1.43

Axis

Germany

Fighter

4,639

5,336

0.87

Every air operation starts with the struggle for local or global air domination which depends on how many fighters you can bring and if they are able to fight off enemy fighters or at least keep them busy. LW fighters can not. Period. That leads to a total air domination by the allies. Which leads to the following results on how planes may have an impact on the ground game: Allied bombers kill count is 10  times larger than LW.

 

 

 

type

Kills

deaths

Allies

United Kingdom

Tactical Bomber

2,232

881

Allies

France

Tactical Bomber

4,308

1,291

Axis

Germany

Tactical Bomber

700

499

Fighter bombers do a little bit better. Not globally but in comparison to allied planes. They achieve to score half as much kills as the allied counterparts and not only 10%. Of course their k/d ratio is also way worse.

So if your suggestion for fixing the air war is to make AFs bombable or introduce other targets that might be worthy enough to drop bombs on them, you just hand over a further clear advantage to the allied side because they will be the only side which will be able to carry out this kind of operations. Besides that you will have the air branche fight over something that ground guys have nothing to do with at all - way off the frontline. I don't think parting air objectives further more from ground objectives will make the air war more interesting. Actually the interaction between player controlled ground and air units is the main reason I keep playing this game. You squadmate on the ground tells you where to drop some bombs to help him defend a town or blow up FBs. Boom! - thx! - watch out 666! - You don't get that anywhere else.

The problem in the air war is not that you have too few options to interact with the campaign. You can really help the ground war by achieving air superiority, drop paras, perfom CAS or preventing the enemy from doing so. German bombers may be worse at supporting ground troops but that's no big deal. Worse bomb sights or climb ratio are still way better than having a significant smaller chance to reach your target and no chance at all for a RTB. People asked for the Ju88 or the  "Kanonenvogel" Stuka - the latter being introduced with very little effect while being a fun plane to fly. Reason is you can't fly it anywhere without being zerged almost instantly. You won't resolve that problem by introducing new bombers. By the way - that ist exactly what Hitler tried :-D I just say Me262-FighterBOMBER.

The problem is how incomparable allied and german fighters are. Just look a the numbers before you start telling me every side says the grass on the other side is greener. LW usually compensated their worse equipment by teamwork. We had good aces that flew for years, carrying the whole community and more casual fighters like myself. But I don't blame anyone who switches sides or stops playing because you have to bring the worse plane into the fight over and over again for 10 years. The aces numbers declining resulting in the problem of overwhelming RAF getting worse resulting in the numbers reaching allmost zero which is where we are now. The only good tactic against allied fighters nowerdays is just to bore them out of flying - which happens by default cause nobody is willing to bring a knife to a gunfight while facing 10 to 1 gunslingers with said knifeschmitt. And this problem is getting worse and worse. Please don't tell numbers on both sides will even out. They don't. If you think otherwise, then start your LW career today and I will enjoy to fly with you!

Situation is: DB7s bombing FBs and ABs to kingdom comes and LW only doing anything at all if you are fighting right next to a german AF or it's saturdays. It will be that way until the balance in the fighter plane branche ist somewhat restored. Nobody wants total balance or unrealistic performance to even out player counts - but that's just what we got allready if you look at how Spitfires Vb and IX performing in comparison to tier3 german planes. That needs to be adressed before we can improve any other thing.

Edited by vanapo

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3 hours ago, vanapo said:

There core problem of the air war is fairly easy to discover, just take a look at the numbers:

https://stats.wwiionline.com/weaponclasscomparison.php

 

 

type

Kills

deaths

Ratio

Allies

UK

Fighter

5,784

2,823

2.05

Allies

France

Fighter

1,464

1,021

1.43

Axis

Germany

Fighter

4,639

5,336

0.87

Every air operation starts with the struggle for local or global air domination which depends on how many fighters you can bring and if they are able to fight off enemy fighters or at least keep them busy. LW fighters can not. Period. That leads to a total air domination by the allies. Which leads to the following results on how planes may have an impact on the ground game: Allied bombers kill count is 10  times larger than LW.

 

 

 

type

Kills

deaths

Allies

United Kingdom

Tactical Bomber

2,232

881

Allies

France

Tactical Bomber

4,308

1,291

Axis

Germany

Tactical Bomber

700

499

Fighter bombers do a little bit better. Not globally but in comparison to allied planes. They achieve to score half as much kills as the allied counterparts and not only 10%. Of course their k/d ratio is also way worse.

So if your suggestion for fixing the air war is to make AFs bombable or introduce other targets that might be worthy enough to drop bombs on them, you just hand over a further clear advantage to the allied side because they will be the only side which will be able to carry out this kind of operations. Besides that you will have the air branche fight over something that ground guys have nothing to do with at all - way off the frontline. I don't think parting air objectives further more from ground objectives will make the air war more interesting. Actually the interaction between player controlled ground and air units is the main reason I keep playing this game. You squadmate on the ground tells you where to drop some bombs to help him defend a town or blow up FBs. Boom! - thx! - watch out 666! - You don't get that anywhere else.

The problem in the air war is not that you have too few options to interact with the campaign. You can really help the ground war by achieving air superiority, drop paras, perfom CAS or preventing the enemy from doing so. German bombers may be worse at supporting ground troops but that's no big deal. Worse bomb sights or climb ratio are still way better than having a significant smaller chance to reach your target and no chance at all for a RTB. People asked for the Ju88 or the  "Kanonenvogel" Stuka - the latter being introduced with very little effect while being a fun plane to fly. Reason is you can't fly it anywhere without being zerged almost instantly. You won't resolve that problem by introducing new bombers. By the way - that ist exactly what Hitler tried :-D I just say Me262-FighterBOMBER.

The problem is how incomparable allied and german fighters are. Just look a the numbers before you start telling me every side says the grass on the other side is greener. LW usually compensated their worse equipment by teamwork. We had good aces that flew for years, carrying the whole community and more casual fighters like myself. But I don't blame anyone who switches sides or stops playing because you have to bring the worse plane into the fight over and over again for 10 years. The aces numbers declining resulting in the problem of overwhelming RAF getting worse resulting in the numbers reaching allmost zero which is where we are now. The only good tactic against allied fighters nowerdays is just to bore them out of flying - which happens by default cause nobody is willing to bring a knife to a gunfight while facing 10 to 1 gunslingers with said knifeschmitt. And this problem is getting worse and worse. Please don't tell numbers on both sides will even out. They don't. If you think otherwise, then start your LW career today and I will enjoy to fly with you!

Situation is: DB7s bombing FBs and ABs to kingdom comes and LW only doing anything at all if you are fighting right next to a german AF or it's saturdays. It will be that way until the balance in the fighter plane branche ist somewhat restored. Nobody wants total balance or unrealistic performance to even out player counts - but that's just what we got allready if you look at how Spitfires Vb and IX performing in comparison to tier3 german planes. That needs to be adressed before we can improve any other thing.

While I find your post interesting, I wold love to hear some specifics about how you think the playing field should be 'evened'?  Are you saying that RAF planes have a coded inherent advantage over LW planes? If so, can you be more specific? 

Yes, mastering the LW planes takes longer, and yes, in the hands of vets they can be very deadly, but for the average player it seems that the LW experience is less 'fun' as the RAF experience. Or more challenging.  I fear this is a self selection problem that we cannot fix. Meaning, the more patient, not immediate rewards type of player might stick to the LW, while the ones looking for the immediate reward might find it quicker on the other side. And not because CRS did anything to force this, IMO. So, what can be done to even the field, I ask? 

Edit: Thinking about it there is a thread that addresses this very question, and provides a possible answer. Its called Regia Aeronautica (the answer, not the thread)

Edited by bogol

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my very first Spit sortie, with a mouse and keyboard, still a utter noob: i took 2 40mm's, at least 5 solid seconds of BB's & at least 10 E-4 20mm's. after all that damage i brought the 09's to the deck and was able to outrun them to the AF (i even damaged one)... yellow smoke the entire fight

 

learning to fly: while flying FAF with a squaddie (he was sporty, spits were dirty to him) i saw white and orange smoke Spits RTB and outfly 09's constantly, and they only ever needed 2 on a 09 to take it out.

 

 

just fix the spit, we all know it's broken it been said for 15 years now.

can't modify units? make a new spit

can't make new units? change supply

refuse to admit anything, or ignore it? LW's gone

 

just fix the spit.....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

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50 minutes ago, major0noob said:

my very first Spit sortie, with a mouse and keyboard, still a utter noob: i took 2 40mm's, at least 5 solid seconds of BB's & at least 10 E-4 20mm's. after all that damage i brought the 09's to the deck and was able to outrun them to the AF (i even damaged one)... yellow smoke the entire fight

 

learning to fly: while flying FAF with a squaddie (he was sporty, spits were dirty to him) i saw white and orange smoke Spits RTB and outfly 09's constantly, and they only ever needed 2 on a 09 to take it out.

 

 

just fix the spit, we all know it's broken it been said for 15 years now.

can't modify units? make a new spit

can't make new units? change supply

refuse to admit anything, or ignore it? LW's gone

 

just fix the spit.....................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................................

Last time I flew a E4 I took down 12 spits with one cannon shot and survived a hit by a battleship. While on fire I flew 100km with 50+ P38s and spits9 to RTB.. they all died trying to kill me at the AF by the AI flak. Then we won the war.

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good post vanapo. i'm not going to dissect it all because it is quite clear you're relatively new to the game. this game used to have lots and lots and lots of dedicated LW pilots. as in, almost never spawning a ground unit other than an AA gun kind of players. Allies had these too. Most of these players are gone now. In addition, this game has always had combined arms squads too with guys like you who enjoy the interaction with the ground. this group, hasn't been hit as hard as the dedicated pilot group. the changes that have occurred over the years that have driven off these players don't really have anything to do with gameplay. more, things added eroded what gameplay there was. 

 

your post is telling though, this is the impression players have if they desire to fly german planes. a feeling of hopelessly being out classed. 

 

one thing you are dead wrong on though is what bombable AFs will do and why the allies will fail as much as the germans do here. in game right now your experience is that allied db7s and havocs are nigh on impossible to stop. this can be true depending on the distance back to their AF. if it is less than 20KM and the db7/havoc has a little altitude to work with, yeah, he may get away in T0/1. if that same db7 has to fly say 20KM past the front line to your AF he now has 40KM back to his AF. if you can't kill him with that much of a window, stick to the ground.

 

if your enemy has to fly behind your line he is taking a big risk and his losses will show this.

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oh, one other point I forgot for vanopo. what you feel doesn't matter. what i feel doesn't matter. why? this game tries to be X, whatever that is isn't important nor is the quality of execution over the years. this game has always had a 'mission statement' of sorts, right?

 

one of those core missions statements has been to, as best we can, simulate a battle that while not a re-enactment feels authentic. we want 100% perfect weapon performance, etc. in order to simulate actual ww2 style warfare, one has to allow for imporant mechanics that actually existed to exist in some analogous game mechanic.

 

WW2 featured EXTENSIVE targeting of not just AFs but also the infrastructure to build planes. both sides did this. if we want to be an authentic feeling game, we need some game mechanic that delivers this feel. Again, regardless of what you and I feel about matchup A vs B, if something existed in reality our feelings be damned ... it needs to exist otherwise, wtf is this game trying to be?

 

further still, again I don't mean to talk down to you but your understanding of the german plane set is lacking. there isn't anything wrong with the planes, the reason the LW struggles is how they're allowed to participate is very limited and lends itself more towards lighter wing loaded planes that generally tend to turn better. 

 

also, anything and everything hitler liked as it relates to warfare was almost 100% patently false. this is the 'genius' that didn't want the STG44. This is the genius that insisted on bomb carry capability when he could have had a small yet functional force of ME-262s at least a year earlier. This is also the mind that wanted dive bombing capabilities on a gigantic 4 engine bomber. hitler was a [censored] moron. no, seriously, he wasn't a high IQ brilliant military strategist. he was a failed artist. imagine john lennon fought in ww1, failed to form the beattles, and then later became a dictator. that's hitler. next time you think to yourself "man, i'm really gunna get a point in this argument, i'll tell them what hitler did" ... just realize you're talking about a mental midget. 

Edited by madrebel

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16 minutes ago, madrebel said:

WW2 featured EXTENSIVE targeting of not just AFs but also the infrastructure to build planes. both sides did this. if we want to be an authentic feeling game, we need some game mechanic that delivers this feel.

Well, we did have RDP beyond just the resupply time effect we have now, but i think most people did not like that.
I was not terribly fond of the shopping list aspect of it because units other people liked to play got sac'd in favor of a unit someone else 
favored, but the bombing aspect of it i liked.

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*** there isn't anything wrong with the planes

Oh really?

Then how come I can hop in a Spit anytime, and go strafe ground targets and get kills and RTB my plane?

Yet when I take up a 109, I flop before I even get to target.

And mind you, I fly in real life; axis planes are terrible; don't know what makes you think they are on par with allied planes.  They aren't.

 

And, you ever up look up once from the ground?  Ever?

Watch as a 111 laboriously slow crawls across the sky.. yet see db7s doing loop do loops flying faster than our fighters.

Might try it some time.

Good thing I play ground, cause if I were to fly, it would never be this game as axis.

I fully understand why there are so few LW pilots left.

 

Edited by delems

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