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madrebel

Fixing the airwar

145 posts in this topic

simple answer, because the game caters to that gameplay and only that gameplay which the spitfire is better suited for.

 

add gameplay that keeps the fight vertical and or fast ... tables turn. 

db7s doing loops isn't a problem with the plane, its a stress model issue that the game just doesn't have. know your issues, [censored] about them appropriately.

 

look, the LW used to stomp in this game. what happened? why don't they now? something changed taking something away that used to work for the LW. further, other targets are something we need for many reasons not the least of which, its realistic. [censored] and whine about the matchups all you want, the areas the LW fighters did best in aren't modeled. LW fighters will never dominate CAS. Even with the JU88, bomb carrying 190s, etc. LW fighters are best used intercepting or out hunting. 

 

nothing in game to intercept, no room to hunt for anything. doesn't matter how broken the spitfire is or isnt (which it most certainly is). 

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3 hours ago, delems said:

Yet when I take up a 109, I flop before I even get to target.

And mind you, I fly in real life; axis planes are terrible; don't know what makes you think they are on par with allied planes.  They aren't.

 

Can you elaborate as to what makes you flop before you get to target? 109 is pretty darn stable after the CM fix. What do you do to put that bird in a flop/spin?

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Haven't flown for years - this is just since I last few.

Haven't tried the new fix -just know what it was like before, and it was terrible.

Suppose I'll have to dig out the joystick and go fly around one afternoon to see if the 109 any better now.

Even if it is a bit better; does nothing for the slow bombers we have.

 

Edited by delems

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Don't know if discussed in this topic yet. 

 

Good way to get better airwar would be just to have more players. 

One way to get more players is to adjust fighter rank requirements with tiers. 

For example in Tier 0 E1 would be rank 0 and E4 rank 5

In tier 1 E1 = rank 0, E4 = rank 3, F2 = rank5

In tier 2 E1 = rank 0, E4 = rank 2,  F2 = rank 3, F4 = rank 5

In tier 3 E1 = rank 0, E4 = rank1,  F2= rank3, F4 = rank4, FW190= rank5

same with other planes. 

This would help the starting air players a lot. E1 vs. spit IX is bit too hard for new player.  But E4 or F2 vs spit IX would be a little more tolerable. 

I think it was like this back in the day, and should be possible technically. 

Playing against the veterans is hard enough. Current system makes it too hard, and new players will not last for the 1/2 year grind to get to rank 5. 

And do not say "go bomb the bridges" Been there, done that and it was just wrong that i had to do it. 

-bucker

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13 hours ago, delems said:

*** there isn't anything wrong with the planes

Oh really?

Then how come I can hop in a Spit anytime, and go strafe ground targets and get kills and RTB my plane?

Yet when I take up a 109, I flop before I even get to target.

And mind you, I fly in real life; axis planes are terrible; don't know what makes you think they are on par with allied planes.  They aren't.

 

And, you ever up look up once from the ground?  Ever?

Watch as a 111 laboriously slow crawls across the sky.. yet see db7s doing loop do loops flying faster than our fighters.

Might try it some time.

Good thing I play ground, cause if I were to fly, it would never be this game as axis.

I fully understand why there are so few LW pilots left.

 

I am fairly confident in my ability to get air kills in the e4.  I don't see a problem with the Luftwaffe fighter wise.  I would still like a low tier 190 though (but without the outer mg ff/m cannons).

 

Db7 by design is more maneuverable than a 111.  This is the forefather to the A20 and A26.  Both of which engaged in ground attack missions (strafing and such) during the war.  Meanwhile all the 111 ever did was level bomb.  If the Luftwaffe had a Ju 88 or Dornier and the differences were still huge then it would be a FM issue but they simply have bombers designed for different purposes.

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4 hours ago, fbucker said:

Don't know if discussed in this topic yet. 

 

Good way to get better airwar would be just to have more players. 

One way to get more players is to adjust fighter rank requirements with tiers. 

For example in Tier 0 E1 would be rank 0 and E4 rank 5

In tier 1 E1 = rank 0, E4 = rank 3, F2 = rank5

In tier 2 E1 = rank 0, E4 = rank 2,  F2 = rank 3, F4 = rank 5

In tier 3 E1 = rank 0, E4 = rank1,  F2= rank3, F4 = rank4, FW190= rank5

same with other planes. 

This would help the starting air players a lot. E1 vs. spit IX is bit too hard for new player.  But E4 or F2 vs spit IX would be a little more tolerable. 

I think it was like this back in the day, and should be possible technically. 

Playing against the veterans is hard enough. Current system makes it too hard, and new players will not last for the 1/2 year grind to get to rank 5. 

And do not say "go bomb the bridges" Been there, done that and it was just wrong that i had to do it. 

-bucker

absolutely need to stop having E1s as the only green tag ride when we are in T3. same for the H75 and the Hurricane1. Same for tanks etc. If we are in a virtual 1942 then we shouldnt see virtual 1939/1940 weaponry on the field anymore. 

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To sum up the positions here let's recapitulate:

1. Everybody agrees that we got too few LW players lifting anymore.

2. The stats show clearly that allied planes score way more kills  and allied fighter dominance is effectively taking LW bombers out of the game (10 to 1).

3. Every german pilot you talk to will tell you that the damage model needs a revamp - especially that of the spit.

-> But you keep telling me in this thread that allied planes are modelled just fine and they are only the better fitting ones for the kind of deck based fighting we usually see. Or that it's just harder to  lift of with the 109 but as soon as you learned that you will score kills with it as if it where a spit. Or that you can hunt down DB7s "easily" because they have to fly home and a 190 is faster so there is nothing at all preventing you from hunt down a DB in allied territory .... ....

So ... well if there is no problem then why do we have so much problems and nobody willing to play LW? If you don't want to discuss the causes and possible solutions of and to this situation, you can stick to your "everything ist just fine with the game - we've lost all LW players due to no reason" and keep lifting with your spit into an empty blue sky and further more make the empty german AFs bombable for allied pilots so they are getting less bored and less cursed upon by ground players which see only allied planes in the sky over contested towns.

And btw the 190 should be ideal for where the fights take place but it still is just dominated by the spitIX.  I've read CRS is considering to overhaul the damage caused by HE shells. I think this could be a real opportunity to balance out a lot of problems with the damage model of allied planes. Seeing explosions all over a spit which still out turns and out climbs you afterwards will have had more LW pilots throw their stick into the garbage than any weather effect.

I am not new to this game though I did not constantly play it. But I keep coming back every now and then, resub until I get frustrated again and quit for a year or so. I will come back because this game offers something you don't get anywhere else. At the same time it got a lot of problems which can frustrate you like hell. I really appreciate the accomplishments of recent months and I hope things get even better so let's all agree that change is for good if you want this game to survive another decade. Everybody I talked to appreciated the introduction of the new stuka and the 109e4b.

And I don't complain that I won't stand a chance with german fighters. I usually get a good k/d ratio with fighters and bombers, just take a look at my stats. But that's only because I fly very defensively especially if I fly alone. I like to RTB so I don't start a fight from a bad position. And as LW that results in avoiding 9 out of 10 fights. I can understand that not so many players like to play this way and get frustrated because they get shot down over and over again. And if you like it or not: that is a problem that has to be adressed.

I played a couple of hours yesterday, first with 91st pilots and afterwards with JG51. For one time we had a dozen pilots on coms, it was fun like in the old days. We had some seasoned players like mingus and a new guy who was just amazed by the game. But at some point someone said "Wow, we didn't have those numbers in months". And that brought me back to this post: Flying the plane that scores less kills is no big deal if you got a lot of people to talk about it. Teamwork allways is the most fun. But when those people are all gone, everything that's left is your bad plane. And then you eventually quit like all the guys before you did. So give us spitfires Herr Reichsmarschall - and they might return and stay! 

Just kidding. Give us HE-shells that kill so effectively that one can understand why RAF switched from MG to cannon rather soon. In this game, I would trade my cannons for a set of 50cal at any time. I learned that lesson by flying allied planes during intermissions. There is no account for the destructive potential of the german Minengeschoss on the structure of allied planes. And btw: no plane at all should survive mutliple 40mm hits without loosing something vital. If you can't model structural damage or the loss of minor but vital systems like hydraulics than just make the plane go puff if it's hit by more than a dozen cannon rounds (which is equivalent to hurling mutiple handgrenades onto it). Planes that simply explode because they got hit to often may sound like an arcade shooter - but planes that got hit by multiple 40mm shells and still holding up in 1 on 1 combat doesn't sound like a simulator at all.

Edit: Seen below: Hits from german 20mm (right) and 30mm (left) "Minengeschoss" rounds on a HS 124 wing (wing span 18.2 meters).

0A6e0J2l.png

Edited by vanapo

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56 minutes ago, vanapo said:

Give us HE-shells that kill so effectively that one can understand why RAF switched from MG to cannon rather soon.

Well, you will be getting new HE though i cant attest to the effectiveness, my lack of skill can undermine any effectiveness.

58 minutes ago, vanapo said:

And btw: no plane at all should survive mutliple 40mm hits without loosing something vital.

Agreed, A truck too should pretty much cease to exist after taking a bofors round to the windshield but they too can live through it, lets see what the new HE itself does, then can probably better judge what the planes are lacking.
 

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1 hour ago, vanapo said:

But when those people are all gone, everything that's left is your bad plane.

When those people are all gone it is up to you (anyone and everyone) to be the force that others follow. Anyone can lead, all you need to do is step up and assume command.

Your (LW) planes are not bad at all - you just have to adapt to its strengths and make the bandits follow your tune instead of you following theirs.

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we can't go any further until we cover 1 point.

at no point have i ever said everything is hunky dory with the allied planes, or their FMs, nor their DMs. in fact, if you run an advanced search with my name i think you'll find a long history of me pointing out in minute detail exactly why i think certain planes are or aren't broken. in many cases providing links to historical data to back me up.

 

that said, there is a difference between relative performance and specific simulated performance. the first one, relative performance can always be discussed and is specifically what i'm doing.

 

relatively speaking, low wing loading planes will perform better in a CAS type loitering role than high wing loading planes. this will be true if we ever get the pacific theater, too when japanese planes simply and easily dominate the airspace over an island AO. what i'm saying is there is nothing inherently wrong with this fact and that with our existing plane set this will always be true.

 

to further this, the spitfire can be broken (it is) and still be fine within the context of my argument because even a 100% perfectly simulated spitfire is still going to out perform within the context of this game. the reasons for this are that the only 'gameplay' we have is best carried out by low wingload planes that can loiter in a relatively tight box. further still, a properly modeled spitfire is still going to make you look foolish. it really was a remarkably simple plane to get 90% out of it's potential and that potential (here specifically turn performance) is better than your 109's baseline turn performance. 

 

lastly, your arguments about damage are all over the place. there are two parts to this issue. one is the ammunition itself and how the game simulates its effect. this is on the virge of being altered based on the design of a career munitions expert employed by very very well funded 3 letter agencies to help them design weapon systems. i'm gunna just be patient and wait to see what scotsman has done. do note, i've watched scotsman for over a decade, ive read his posts, this dude is a legit expert. let's see how this HE audit actually turns out before we keep kicking the dead horse.

 

in short, we all know and have known for significantly longer than you have that this game didn't do HE well. its about to get fixed. 

 

the second part of that is, once damaged, how does that translate to structural integrity of the vehicle and how does that interact with the simulated physical forces we have? said another way, stress modeling which would also be need for things like do not exceed dive speeds (huge advantage 109 here), things like bombers pulling loops with 2000kg of bombs on board (you can do it in the 11 btw, just need a lot of altitude) without snapping their wings ... yes. this is a big issue, but one that truly affects all planes in game. you could argue the LW would benefit the most from this being modeled simply because their early war fighters had such high dive speeds but ... yeah its just needed because.

 

we on the same page now?

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I don't argue with you on the spit being the better plane for most common "I fly straight to the target and start circling above it until enemies arive" situations. It surely is and should be. But only few LW pilots take their 109 and do that. They use the strenght of their plane and follow boom & zoom tacticts. As their weapons are mostly underperforming it's hard for them to kill anything with a snapshot coming in hot and extending afterwards. The best way to score kills in this game is parking your plane behind it and start peppering it all over the place until some random round will hit the pilot. And that's where the spit got its biggest advantage - not in low altitude or "loitering" performance.

I was questioning it's damage and flight modell which we both think is way off. A lot of factors in how this game simulates things (and of course has to simplifiy to do so) add up to give even more advantage to the spit - which makes it a far better performing plane in comparison than it should be - not (only) because it suits better to the type of missions we got to fly but because it suits better to the shortcomings of the simulation. Only consequence from HE hits is you plane getting a little slower? Sloppy 109 which only real advantage is its dive and climb speed while suffer hard fromt that. The slow flying but good turning spit will help you bear that with ease and can fight after swallowing crazy amounts of explosions.

We can stop to discuss this details as you pointed out. I didn't know that HE revamp is allready in the making so I agree with you that we should wait for what it will bring and solve. If it's made well, it will increase the deadlyness of cannon armed fighters drastically and give german early and late fighters a clear advantage in this regard. I think that could "fix the air war" in many regards by even things out so LW fighters may have fun again and fly more often. I am looking forward to see that happen and I would love to see more realistic "physics" afterwards - of which I am sure it is very hard to achieve in the current game engine. But nobody asks for wonders - so I think we might be on the same page.

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and if we open up the game, add targets behind the lines, you now extend the fight and turn elements of it towards the strengths of higher wing loaded planes. doesn't matter if the HE is perfect, we're still stuck in a tiny box around w/e is the current AO.

 

don't forget hispano HE is also under performing. don't sleep on hispano HE its not all that far behind 20mm mine rounds in relative power. stress modeling would be great but isn't explicitly required to make things better. we used to have skies full of planes, we don't anymore. the reasons for that IMO are only related to planes and performance on the surface. the real issue causing the discrepancy is confinement.

 

confinement is fixable, we've got a massive map to work with after all.

 

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2 hours ago, vanapo said:

. The best  (WORST) way to score kills in this game is parking your plane behind it and start peppering it all over the place until some random round will hit the pilot. And that's where the spit got its biggest advantage - not in low altitude or "loitering" performance.

 

Absolutely FALSE. Yes, maybe if you are flying an E1. But any other LW crate, please DO NOT DO THAT. 

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Absolutely FALSE. Yes, maybe if you are flying an E1. But any other LW crate, please DO NOT DO THAT. 

That is what I was saying. LW planes are the worst at it. But because MGs in this game are allmost as deadly as cannons - allied fighters rule the kill count. Strangely enough it's easier to kill a bomber with 6 MGs than with 2 cannons and 2 MGs.

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and here I did not think I needed any popcorn:popcorn:

 

hehe j/k....

 

hey someone needs to get a rise outta this place

Edited by Redwing

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  Low population is the main problem!  So what is CRS actively doing to attract LW pilots?  

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2 hours ago, vanapo said:

That is what I was saying. LW planes are the worst at it. But because MGs in this game are allmost as deadly as cannons - allied fighters rule the kill count. Strangely enough it's easier to kill a bomber with 6 MGs than with 2 cannons and 2 MGs.

I dont understand your logic.  Sorry. And no, that is not what you were saying. You were saying that the best strategy to kill EA is to spray and pray. Literally, thats what you said. Which is FAR from true. In fact, that is the worst strategy you can think of. 

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5 hours ago, madrebel said:

we're still stuck in a tiny box around w/e is the current AO.

Uh, what?

If you want to fight elsewhere, go and CREATE the fight. It’s in YOUR power, there are no restraints, no confinement. 

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5 hours ago, bmbm said:

Uh, what?

If you want to fight elsewhere, go and CREATE the fight. It’s in YOUR power, there are no restraints, no confinement. 

Not really bmbm, figts happen around objectives. Or on the way to objectives. Not randomly in the middle of the map. 

If you are talking about intercept, drag and bag, or barcap, vulchcap,  yes those can and still happen. But those much less common than before.

1. Intercept. Not much to intercept. Nowdays bomber formations that target factories are rare. Very rare...

2. Drag and Bag. Yes it happens, but it is still mostly around the AO, in that same little box

3. Barcap. Yes, it happens, but nowdays I prefer to look for EA at AO instead of enroute. Why? Because of the numbers being so low (and maybe the sky being so blurry), it takes much longer than before to spot them in route from AF to AO. I go where I know they are most of the time. Yes, I do barcap, on occasion, but find myself around the little box that the AO is much more often. 

4. Vulchcap. It requires numbers to do efficiently. When LW dominates an area and clears the AO, yes we do go for their AF. So does the RAF, sometimes. But again, its something that happens organically, and not very often. 

So, yes it is OUR power to CREATE the fight. But it has to happen around OBJECTIVES or on the WAY to them. Fights dont happen in vacuum. Add Mobile AFs and this will change the complexion of the air war in wwiiol. Make AFs bombable, and this will do the same. 

 

 

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7 hours ago, bmbm said:

Uh, what?

If you want to fight elsewhere, go and CREATE the fight. It’s in YOUR power, there are no restraints, no confinement. 

go on, finish that thought. exactly how am i to create this fight away from the AO? 

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15 hours ago, vanapo said:

. The best  way to score kills in this game is parking your plane behind it and start peppering it all over the place until some random round will hit the pilot. And that's where the spit got its biggest advantage - not in low altitude or "loitering" performance.

 

Absolutely FALSE. Yes, maybe if you are flying an E1. But any other LW crate, please DO NOT DO THAT.

Quote

I dont understand your logic.  Sorry. And no, that is not what you were saying. You were saying that the best strategy to kill EA is to spray and pray. Literally, thats what you said. Which is FAR from true. In fact, that is the worst strategy you can think of. 

I would encourage you to read my whole argumentation and not to pick out just one part of one sentence. Of course it's better to aim than to just "spray and pray" but shooting with multiple angled guns from a moving platform at another moving platform is always a bit of both. There are very few planes with whom you can snipe something. And so what I literally said is: The plane that's better at scoring kills rather than hits IN GENERAL in this game is the plane that's better at peppering its opponent so it might hit the pilot. Multiple 40mms hits on the structure won't secure a kill. Multiple 30mm hits won't secure a kill and mutliple 20mm hit's won't for sure. The more rounds at the more angles flying through the totally empty structure that is a plane in this game (with no vital components other than the pilot and the engine) will increase your chance to score a kill a lot.  That's why a plane with a lot of MGs firing at different angles is a way better kill scorer in this game than a bird with cannons even though every report from WW2 will tell you the exact opposite.

And that's why the best way to score a kill IN GENERAL in this game is to pepper your target from behind with a lot of hits instead of zooming in and get some snapshot hits with your cannons. Gaping wholes in the victims plane after  such a boom and zoom attack  would lead to a real disadvantage for him - you might agree on that. But in the current flight and damage modell you have to score a direct hit on the pilot, the engine or controll surfaces to do damage at all - everything else won't do anyhting. That's putting a plane which is good at parking at the enemy's 6 and peppering it in a clear advantage over a plane that's not too good at that and has to rely on snapshots + wearing the enemy down through the process. The former one is the spit the latter is called 109.

To the other point: In regard to bombable airfields I don't see your logic. How should that bring back more LW pilots? We all agree numbers are too low right now. So you got 20 allied pilots and 3 LW pilots flying at a given moment. So the 20 allied planes will start bombing the closest LW airfield of an AO instead of the AO. So you encourage Spawn-Camping or force the remainng 2 LW pilots to lift from even farer away. LW bomber kill counts are outnumbered 10 to 1 as it is right now. How many 111 with a top speed and survivabilty to laugh at do you think gonna still lift after you make their AFs contested?

How does "adding new ways to use your air superiority" solve anything for the main problem "one side has total air superiority ALL THE TIME"?

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What I would agree on is that spawnable little AFs for frontline CAS purposes could ad something to the game and make the Stuka more usefull than just serving as green tag flown clay pidgeons. But that's another thing that won't help a bit until we solved the main problem "we got no LW pilots willing to fly anymore" aka "one side has total air superiority all the time". And air superiority is somthing you adress by looking at how the fighters work, not at how the bombers do.

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you're suggesting we add game elements to circumvent a weapon system's short comings. that's a slippery slope. the stuka sucked IRL. it was a weapon system that requires air superiority to be effective. the entire 'dive bombing' premise was proven to be insufficient within the early rounds of the BoB. every country that had a dedicated dive bomber at the beginning of the war, or one being designed, either canceled the project, canceled the entire platform, or like the germans - removed all the dive brakes and requirements for dive brakes.

 

the only 'brakes' used later in the war were to prevent planes from lawn darting (P38) from mach tuck or like the P47 it had brakes to keep it within its comfort zone. neither of these planes had dive brakes for bombing.

 

we've always had the stuka. from day 1 of the game we've had the stuka. its never been a great plane.

 

If you really look closely, what I'm suggesting works directly and exactly on the topic of 'how fighters work'. do note, i'm a former almost exclusive fighter pilot in this game and i'm a human ergo selfish to some degree. the game i used to love is gone, specifically the air game in ww2ol. its just gone, i want it back. further, since i'm selfish i want the roaming high speed BnZ style play we used to have that allowed me to get the most out of the planes i liked flying most. those are the german fighters and the french fighters. those fighters are best at high speeds, in a dive or if LW in a vertical engagement. i do not want to turn fight on the deck for two reasons .

 

1) its completely and totally unrealistic. much like the myth of the lone long range uber sniper ... the myth of the dog fight is just that, a myth. in ww2 air battles that resulted in two planes angling hard to shoot each other down at tree top level were NOT the norm, not in russia, not in the pacific, nowhere was that the norm. the norm was numerous friendlies merging with numerous enemy into a giant chaotic furball ... AT REASONABLE ALTITUDE. in russia SOP for LW JGs was hunting russian planes or escorting their own CAS planes that typically made a single pass and hauled [censored] back home. it wass not to loiter over a battle where hundreds of AA guns might be but absolutely would be thousands of small arms MGs that too were quite dangerous.

 

2) the planes i like to fly and the manner in which i like to fly aren't great at turn fighting on the deck. why would i purposely stack the deck against myself?

 

what exactly then are you suggesting with 'looking at how the fighters work'? cause thats what i'm doing. i don't want LW fighters to 'work' in this tiny box we have now - as that will never actually 'work' in that environment. you've got conflicting airplane designs and a renowned matchup with the 109 and the spit. two platforms built to do a similar job but from two different points of view. the germans thought the future would be all about speed, altitude, and coordination. the RaF was still in the WW1 mindset of turning tight circles. History i think shows which one had the better prediction but that is neither here nor there. the point is you have to have this matchup and it is so well known if you try to massage the 109 into working better in this role you'll get laughed at by ... well me and everyone else like me who cares about things being accurate.

 

we need the space where LW fighters shine again. we used to have it, TOEs killed that. give us AFs as targets and now we get that space back and better gameplay in general. same page yet?

 

*edit* allow me to further qualify. the 'norm' in the BoB was giant chaotic furballs courtesy of the chain home and gigantic interception flights they ut up. once the BoB was over tactics for non strategic engagements were much smaller. 4-24 planes per side, harassment type engagements. jumping over to the ETO and Africa you get the JGs shifting to 2-4 plane flights and roaming hunting with occasional larger flights. PTO, lots of high speed US tactics, BnZ, straight lines to drag out those nimble japanese fighters and or hunting the lanes between islands and picking off stuff enroute. jumping back to europe and the 1943 timeframe, again we're at gigantic flights or US bombers merging with as many interceptors as the LW could find ... at 30K feet. if/when an actual 1v1 dog fight occurred, and they most certainly did, it would typically be after one of the scenarios i mentioned played out. meaning, the initial engagement happened, someone tried to run away, and someone else didn't let them. this may then turn into a dog fight or in many cases the guy who knew he was boned may just eject.

 

the point, our game plays NOTHING like an actual battle. that is fine btw, this is a game after all. i'm merely point out that at best our game sorta kinda might look like a fight that could have happened in the ETO or the PTO. low altitude planes fighting over dirt ... could have happened in either setting but it likely just never did. not like we do it. again, its fine, however what isn't fine is that is all we have. we have nothing else from reality that we have simulated via game mechanic ... all we have is fights over dirt.

Edited by madrebel

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2 hours ago, madrebel said:

go on, finish that thought. exactly how am i to create this fight away from the AO? 

First off, the idea that you absolutely HAVE to fight at the AO is just that, an idea that has taken hold in your collective heads. Like Bogol says, there are any number of ways of creating fights outside the AO - and there are still more, if you put your mind to it. I really don't wish to lecture on the topic, but since you asked:

4 hours ago, bogol said:

1. Intercept. Not much to intercept. Nowdays bomber formations that target factories are rare. Very rare...

2. Drag and Bag. Yes it happens, but it is still mostly around the AO, in that same little box

3. Barcap. Yes, it happens, but nowdays I prefer to look for EA at AO instead of enroute. Why? Because of the numbers being so low (and maybe the sky being so blurry), it takes much longer than before to spot them in route from AF to AO. I go where I know they are most of the time. Yes, I do barcap, on occasion, but find myself around the little box that the AO is much more often. 

4. Vulchcap. It requires numbers to do efficiently. When LW dominates an area and clears the AO, yes we do go for their AF. So does the RAF, sometimes. But again, its something that happens organically, and not very often. 

So, yes it is OUR power to CREATE the fight. But it has to happen around OBJECTIVES or on the WAY to them. Fights dont happen in vacuum. Add Mobile AFs and this will change the complexion of the air war in wwiiol. Make AFs bombable, and this will do the same. 

1. RDP bombing is a two-way street. The Allies aren't doing it because you aren't doing it - one side has to start and the other will follow to even out the score. So, in order to produce bombers to intercept, you have to man up and do the same. You don't necessarily have to suffer the slow He-111, you can do a credible job with a formation of Bf-110s of which you have plenty. They are fast, faster than the DBs, and can defend themselves better in a pickle. As an added bonus you can and should fly an 109 escort and hey presto you've got an air battle, at altitude, on your hands. Once you've bombed a few factories you're likely to meet interceptors en route, and bombers going the other way.

2. Drag and bag isn't confined to AO's. You can do it anywhere. Show a bit of skirt and have your wingman sort out the dummies. Works every time, anywhere. You just have to show up. 

3. Barcap - of course. You KNOW that every crate at the AO must perforce head out from somewhere, so meet them halfway. If you can't see them from nosebleed altitude, go down lower, and bring a wingman or three. If you don't want to risk it down below there, why, would you have a better chance at the AO? Layer your elements for greater pwn. 

4. Vulchcap. Not my favourite on account of the flak, but hey it's up to you. A close barcap is better IMO, and a barcap that comprises two low legs and a third party at altitude is bloody hard to counter. Before you know it you have a real fight on your hands in a great swathe of the sky, just like you wanted - and the added bonus is that the AO is suddenly clear of EA.

Need more? OK, here's a few:

5. Run a bait mission - know that the enemy will nearly always follow red boxes around, so mass up and create a fight of your liking on territory of your liking. Spice it with Heinkels or Stukas for laughs if you will, but you can do just as well without. If you don't get any takers, skirt an AO and see what you can produce.

6. Bomb airfields even though there's no payoff - it's certain to bring a low and slow reception, just like you want it. And you get to practice for future opportunities.

7. Set up a flak trap and defend it in the air too. You'll encounter a fair sprinkling of bombers and fighter-bombers intent on taking down the flak, so feast upon them.

8. At the AO, boom right through it and drag target-fixated enemy some distance away to waiting friends (a minute or two away from the AO is good enough, if you can entice them further away, so much the better). Works like a charm, if you have friends. When the herd is culled, your waiting barcap will have more than enough fodder. You don't HAVE to circle the AO just because it's there - use it only as a means to produce suitable targets.

Do away with the lonewolf turnandburn mentality. Lead people, in formation, and you WILL be the force that produces fights. If you're not seeing any concerted action at or away from AOs it's because YOU didn't step up to create it. It's your choice really - you don't HAVE to succumb to the lowest common denominator.

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1 hour ago, madrebel said:

what exactly then are you suggesting with 'looking at how the fighters work'?

 

1 hour ago, madrebel said:

we need the space where LW fighters shine again.

Again: Damage model. Damage model and damage model again. With no word I suggested to make the 109 a better turn Fighter. I repeatedly said we have to revamp HE shells and the damage modells of all planes especially that of the spit so that 109s do have a fair chance in BnZ attacks. I think we are on the same page that this is what they should be doing. Making the spit less forgiving to big explosions would make the 109 shine at scoring kills rather than hits. And that might bring back LW pilots. When you fly with some and you will hear their cursing ("I hit him a dozen times and he still is outclimbing me") over and over again. I am sure allied pilots say the same thing from time to time. But due to some reason they are still flying in great numbers. Which brings us back to the point.

I elaborted multiple times now how this, to quote you, unrealistic focus on turn & burn fighting at the deck is encouraged by the strange damage modell and how it uneralistically benefits a MG firing turn fighter (with a light salvo weight) over a a canon firing energy fighter (with a good and furthermore high explosive salvo weight). If you got such a major problem in the very basics of dogfighting it won't get solved by bringing the dogfight somewhere else. And if dogfighting is broken because one side gets no fun and a lot of frustration out of it, you come to the situation we got right now,

We allready agreed upon HE overhaul may bring a lot of improvement. I'd say: Focus on that and get it done. Because that might bring back LW pilots and thus more fun for everyone. More pilots are a better way to stretch out combat again than bombable AFs. Because once again: How does "adding new ways to use your air superiority" solve anything for the main problem "Allies have total air superiority ALL THE TIME" aka "there is no Luftwaffe left"?

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