Miked

AA adjustments

69 posts in this topic

I want more AA AI at every town; should be a bofors (Flak 36/37) and LMG at every dock too.

At least one bofors (Flak 36/37 for axis) at every town.

Way to easy for fly fairies in this game to hunt ground objects, way to much supply, way to easy to see targets.

Get back up in the sky where you belong, and AA AI won't matter......

 

I'd make bombs from bombers not work unless over 5000m high, that will give a reason to level bomb from height and fighters to be up there with them.

(though not the dive bombers or fighter/bombers with 1 or 2 bombs)

 

Edited by delems
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If you take a look at the stats I can understand why an allied fighter bomber pilot might think the 20mm AA gun is his worst enemy. Because it is - if he is flying into allmost uncontested airspace while Luftwaffe is underpopped. RAF lost more HurriIIc to AA than to the LW. The 20mm most of the time is the first weapon at hand to kill hurris flying at stall speed and tree top level over the frontlines - which they allways do if there is no LW around.

If you ask me -  it is absolute realistic those hurris get shot down by small caliber AA fire. A player circling low and slow over a ground fight drags a lot of small AA fire upon him. Not only from an armybase but from everywhere. In my book allmost every tank should have a small AA MG fittet to its top - that would be realistic too. And it would be nice to have an AA MG class for the infantry, just a little LMG on a nice PPO mount with open sights to engage low and slow planes with. We would need even more ground fire if you want this game to be realistic.

It must be really frustrating that the FRUs or FMS are firing back at you now. Funny though that namely allied pilots are complaining about how AA impacts them while they got the spitfire that can take multiple bofors hits without dying. Let a buddy in a spit drag the fire upon him. Spot the gun. Kill it with fire.

Btw: RAF Fighter bombers score 2.71 kills for every lost plane. Luftwaffe only 1.64 - so you should'nt ask to nerf the 20mm but rather the 25mm.

I'm just kidding. That would make no sense. LW planes are seldomly lost due to AA because they won't reach their ground targets anyways.

 

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2 minutes ago, delems said:

I'd make bombs from bombers not work unless over 5000m high, that will give a reason to level bomb from height and fighters to be up there with them.

I really like that idea. Make 200-250kg bombs as deadly as they should be but the fuses should only detonate if they are dropped from above 3k. The small bombs could stay like they are.

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2 minutes ago, vanapo said:

If you take a look at the stats I can understand why an allied fighter bomber pilot might think the 20mm AA gun is his worst enemy. Because it is - if he is flying into allmost uncontested airspace while Luftwaffe is underpopped. RAF lost more HurriIIc to AA than to the LW. The 20mm most of the time is the first weapon at hand to kill hurris flying at stall speed and tree top level over the frontlines - which they allways do if there is no LW around.

If you ask me -  it is absolute realistic those hurris get shot down by small caliber AA fire. A player circling low and slow over a ground fight drags a lot of small AA fire upon him. Not only from an armybase but from everywhere. In my book allmost every tank should have a small AA MG fittet to its top - that would be realistic too. And it would be nice to have an AA MG class for the infantry, just a little LMG on a nice PPO mount with open sights to engage low and slow planes with. We would need even more ground fire if you want this game to be realistic.

It must be really frustrating that the FRUs or FMS are firing back at you now. Funny though that namely allied pilots are complaining about how AA impacts them while they got the spitfire that can take multiple bofors hits without dying. Let a buddy in a spit drag the fire upon him. Spot the gun. Kill it with fire.

Btw: RAF Fighter bombers score 2.71 kills for every lost plane. Luftwaffe only 1.64 - so you should'nt ask to nerf the 20mm but rather the 25mm.

I'm just kidding. That would make no sense. LW planes are seldomly lost due to AA because they won't reach their ground targets anyways.

 

You’ve clearly missed the point. I have not at any point said that the 20mm is my worst enemy and have by no means asked for anything to get nerfed, the 25mm or 20mm. I’ve ask for the means of deployment on both sides to be realistic. That is all. It honestly impacts me for the better. I get way more kills now that these guys can pop up out of mud holes where I know they’re located

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16 minutes ago, vanapo said:

If you take a look at the stats I can understand why an allied fighter bomber pilot might think the 20mm AA gun is his worst enemy. Because it is - if he is flying into allmost uncontested airspace while Luftwaffe is underpopped. RAF lost more HurriIIc to AA than to the LW. The 20mm most of the time is the first weapon at hand to kill hurris flying at stall speed and tree top level over the frontlines - which they allways do if there is no LW around.

If you ask me -  it is absolute realistic those hurris get shot down by small caliber AA fire. A player circling low and slow over a ground fight drags a lot of small AA fire upon him. Not only from an armybase but from everywhere. In my book allmost every tank should have a small AA MG fittet to its top - that would be realistic too. And it would be nice to have an AA MG class for the infantry, just a little LMG on a nice PPO mount with open sights to engage low and slow planes with. We would need even more ground fire if you want this game to be realistic.

It must be really frustrating that the FRUs or FMS are firing back at you now. Funny though that namely allied pilots are complaining about how AA impacts them while they got the spitfire that can take multiple bofors hits without dying. Let a buddy in a spit drag the fire upon him. Spot the gun. Kill it with fire.

Btw: RAF Fighter bombers score 2.71 kills for every lost plane. Luftwaffe only 1.64 - so you should'nt ask to nerf the 20mm but rather the 25mm.

I'm just kidding. That would make no sense. LW planes are seldomly lost due to AA because they won't reach their ground targets anyways.

 

I also agree that it’s realistic that a dive bomber get shot down by small caliber AA. But it’s not realistic that a truck can place a mud hole and have 10-20 guns pop out of it. Have I even mentioned how it personally impacts me?  I’m not sure why you’re trying to make this personal..

And no, it’s not frustrating having fms’ fire back at me. It’s frustrsting how they get there in the first place. By bypassing the proper and initial use of trucks and HT’s

Edited by Miked

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Oh Ididn't want to make this personal. I was generally speaking. If you relate to the observation that first and foremost allied players are complaining in the forums about how AA fire annoys them - I might have gotten the point after all.

Or is your point that it's unrealistic we don't have a lot truck convoys travelling the roads towards an AO but a lot of spawning at FBs and FMS instead? Well that for sure is not realistic. But you realise that your plane just spawns at the closest airfield thats not a frontline AF all the time aswell right? So if you say the ground guys have to tow everything to the AO - I'd say there should be only room for one air flag in every AF then and you should only be able to lift of bombers from one of the bigger airfields way back.

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Everything spawns somewhere. All of the behind-the-spawn-point activity that got the spawnable item to the spawn point is virtualized. None of it is "realistic" if by that you mean that such virtualization isn't acceptable. But, virtualization is a key means for allowing a combat game to focus on combat, not transport and logistics.

It's not obvious to me why the thing you want transported is different from other spawnable itens, from a game design perspective. Sure you'd like to have less ground fire from your preferred target. Well, it appears the game designers think the right balance is to have more light AA there.

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14 hours ago, delems said:

I want more AA AI at every town; should be a bofors (Flak 36/37) and LMG at every dock too.

At least one bofors (Flak 36/37 for axis) at every town.

Way to easy for fly fairies in this game to hunt ground objects, way to much supply, way to easy to see targets.

Get back up in the sky where you belong, and AA AI won't matter......

 

I'd make bombs from bombers not work unless over 5000m high, that will give a reason to level bomb from height and fighters to be up there with them.

(though not the dive bombers or fighter/bombers with 1 or 2 bombs)

 

great example of a failure to understand game theory. 

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15 hours ago, delems said:

I want more AA AI at every town; should be a bofors (Flak 36/37) and LMG at every dock too.

At least one bofors (Flak 36/37 for axis) at every town.

Oh lord no.
The AI is only supposed to serve as a minor hinderance for the most part, with heavy AI concentrations
mostly limited to Factories, Deepwater ports, and Airfields.
Every town on the map has Plenty of AI for its intended purposes as it sits now i think.

15 hours ago, delems said:

Way to easy for fly fairies in this game to hunt ground objects, way to much supply, way to easy to see targets.

I cant tell you if it is way too easy or not, i never flew a combat mission in WWI (or any place else for that matter)
But in WWII, they kind of flew planes in ground attack missions, and shot up trains and convoys, and artillery emplacements and even flak nests
They also did a little bit of tank busting and such. They kind of had to do all that from down low ya know? Guns only have so much range.

 

15 hours ago, delems said:

I'd make bombs from bombers not work unless over 5000m high, that will give a reason to level bomb from height and fighters to be up there with them.

You would punish ONLY the axis with this.
They are the only ones fielding a "standard level bomber" of any appreciable payload.
Blen MK IV no one will care about probably as it is terribly underutilized, but it is a low alt bomber.
Blen MK I is a fighter bomber so free pass. 
Havoc/DB7 is an Intruder so that kind of plops it in the Blen MK I category loosely so free pass.
Which leaves only the HE-111 forced to be at a specific alt that has no correlation to arming mechanism just because it isnt fighter capable.

That would not be fair, and would most importantly would be wrong, the HE-111 was more than quite capable of low alt bombing should the situation and opportunity present itself. As far as the dropping of bombs itself goes, the HE-111 is a Rolls Royce compared to everything else currently in game.

The only thing it can not do, is function as a fighter.

Since bombs are not yet STO, this would nerf ONLY the axis, by giving them the ONLY bomber in the entire game that is locked to a mechanically non correct limitation AND is unable to kill ANY player ground targets, simply because it isnt rendering them at 5km.

An HE-111 (and all other bombers) has to drop its bombs from about 600m alt, that gives it 100m of lateral leeway for its bombs to hit before infantry
targets derender to it.

You want bombers up high?
1st they have to have their bombs changed so they can actually hit what they are dropping bombs on.
STO is probably the most likely solution, but not being a coder i could be wrong there.

2nd You have to go force them up there with your human non AI AA and your fighters, which if the 1st part comes into play, will not be hard.
They dont typically enjoy being down at eazymode target level i dont think, they just dont have a choice.
 

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3 hours ago, vanapo said:

Oh Ididn't want to make this personal. I was generally speaking. If you relate to the observation that first and foremost allied players are complaining in the forums about how AA fire annoys them - I might have gotten the point after all.

Or is your point that it's unrealistic we don't have a lot truck convoys travelling the roads towards an AO but a lot of spawning at FBs and FMS instead? Well that for sure is not realistic. But you realise that your plane just spawns at the closest airfield thats not a frontline AF all the time aswell right? So if you say the ground guys have to tow everything to the AO - I'd say there should be only room for one air flag in every AF then and you should only be able to lift of bombers from one of the bigger airfields way back.

I think I’ve made my point clear. If you want to discuss adjusting air flags, feel free to start your own topic and I’ll be happy to respond to you there

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2 hours ago, jwilly said:

Everything spawns somewhere. All of the behind-the-spawn-point activity that got the spawnable item to the spawn point is virtualized. None of it is "realistic" if by that you mean that such virtualization isn't acceptable. But, virtualization is a key means for allowing a combat game to focus on combat, not transport and logistics.

It's not obvious to me why the thing you want transported is different from other spawnable itens, from a game design perspective. Sure you'd like to have less ground fire from your preferred target. Well, it appears the game designers think the right balance is to have more light AA there.

Why do you keep suggesting I want less ground fire!?!? I’m ok with it, I get crap loads of kills On AA gunners.

why I want them to be transported differently is because there is a specific vehicle made for that purpose that’s not being used how it should be. Why is that so darn hard to understand?

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43 minutes ago, Miked said:

Why do you keep suggesting I want less ground fire!?!? I’m ok with it, I get crap loads of kills On AA gunners.

why I want them to be transported differently is because there is a specific vehicle made for that purpose that’s not being used how it should be. Why is that so darn hard to understand?

because trucks would really need to be an 'AI' for them to be used in the numbers required for what you're asking for to not suck giant donkey balls. 

 

i know i know - "but bro there are a lot of players that like doing non combat missions" ... uh huh. then we've failed to ever appeal to this vast playerbase cause we've NEVER had enough people willing to do boring stuff like drive trucks. 'spawning' is a video game constant for this reason, not enough people like doing these 'jobs' in games.

 

an AI truck though has significant advantages. an AI truck is an instant payload type mission. ML orders 10 trucks with guns to drive to a general location and deploy the guns. now you get to escort that convoy and upon arrival, spawn into those gun assets and setup a ZoC. while the escort mission is in progress the opposing team has something to hunt and attack from the ground or air etc.

 

relying on players to drive trucks though - foolish IMO. it will never be done enough and the rare occasions it gets done removes a great deal of man power from active combat roles reducing action in general. that's never a good thing.  Order an AI truck to stop by way points to resupply ammo, etc. why have real people do this when a ML could be managing all those logistics more efficiently?

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Trucks and the German APC also were designed to move infantry. The FMS concept was developed to improve on the gameplay that resulted from forcing attacking infantry to be moved that way...even though doing so was more realistic.

The effort here has been to explain to you that FMS spawnability of light AA is an exactly parallel situation. The game's designers think it results in better gameplay than the original approach.

It's understood of course that you disagree on that design determination.

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2 hours ago, madrebel said:

because trucks would really need to be an 'AI' for them to be used in the numbers required for what you're asking for to not suck giant donkey balls.

relying on players to drive trucks though - foolish IMO. it will never be done enough and the rare occasions it gets done removes a great deal of man power from active combat roles reducing action in general. that's never a good thing.  Order an AI truck to stop by way points to resupply ammo, etc. why have real people do this when a ML could be managing all those logistics more efficiently?

I disagree with the first part. 2 trucks can carry like 10 guns which is usually more than enough. Any more than that and you won’t have players doing anything else. We used to have people that were willing to do this. I’m sure we still do. The more we cater to the lazy steam gamer, the more the game loses is allure to all the people that started playing it for the hardcore game it once was.

while I think the second part would be a neat idea, it’s probably way too far off to even begin dreaming of.

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2 hours ago, jwilly said:

Trucks and the German APC also were designed to move infantry. The FMS concept was developed to improve on the gameplay that resulted from forcing attacking infantry to be moved that way...even though doing so was more realistic.

The effort here has been to explain to you that FMS spawnability of light AA is an exactly parallel situation. The game's designers think it results in better gameplay than the original approach.

It's understood of course that you disagree on that design determination.

Yes, I disagree. Trucks carry troops and a few guns, not 20-30 AT and AA guns. I realize that the gameplay design might be more fun for ground pounding steamers, but it’s not realistic and takes away from the hardcore game this once was. All I’m saying is IMO we shouldn’t keep catering to the lazy steam type of player in the designs. Cater to the hardcores that helped build this game and kept it from going under on multiple occasions

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Sounds like you just want more easy mode ground targets with nothing being able to kill you.

Game is already beyond ludicrous when it comes to air supply, have to dig my numbers out, but in something like 10-14 game days, the german side has available more aircraft then every german plane type ever used in the entire war!  Not to mention you fly from the closest AFs every time.

Again, have to check my numbers; but there should be like 500 aircraft per side, with a 30 DAY RDP timer (not 15 hours), that is realistic.  Ok, it is a game, go 1000 aircraft with 14 day RDP.

Might make the air troopers afraid of death and RTB more often and hunt more realistically.

 

And yes, I think every town and every dock should have a bofors/flak 36/37 and a 20mm type gun and LMG AA AI.  Still doesn't begin to compensate for the ludicrous air supply.

 

Edited by delems

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2 hours ago, madrebel said:

i know i know - "but bro there are a lot of players that like doing non combat missions" ... uh huh. then we've failed to ever appeal to this vast playerbase cause we've NEVER had enough people willing to do boring stuff like drive trucks. 'spawning' is a video game constant for this reason, not enough people like doing these 'jobs' in games.

Can not argue with that.
Once upon a time, we did not have any form of MS
It required guys driving trucks, it was almost always the same guys driving the trucks, for hours and hours.
When the guys driving trucks had to head off to work, bed, family time etc, it was walking and pushing.

Tanks would haul infantry back then, but it was not the best way to go, it usually was a fast track to respawnsville
as you got hosed off the tank with someones munitions.

People got burned out on it as you were driving driving constantly, and getting shot up and blown up and cant even shoot back etc
and there were never tons of guy/girls doing it, it was always the same guys from the same squads and a few dedicated lone wolfs.
Even had some people who would use transport planes and fly in infantry resupply and land them in a field close to town, but again same people doing it.
After a while it's like Hey, i wanna go shoot things too
 
 

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30 minutes ago, delems said:

Sounds like you just want more easy mode ground targets with nothing being able to kill you.

Game is already beyond ludicrous when it comes to air supply, have to dig my numbers out, but in something like 10-14 game days, the german side has available more aircraft then every german plane type ever used in the entire war!  Not to mention you fly from the closest AFs every time.

Again, have to check my numbers; but there should be like 500 aircraft per side, with a 30 DAY RDP timer (not 15 hours), that is realistic.  Ok, it is a game, go 1000 aircraft with 30 day RDP.

Might make the air troopers afraid of death and RTB more often and hunt more realistically.

 

And yes, Ithink every town and every dock should have a bofors/flak 36/37 and a 20mm type gun and LMG AA AI.  Still doesn't begin to compensate for the ludicrous air supply.

 

Dude.. if you would actually read what I’ve been saying and maybe check my stats, you would see that this is easier mode. I don’t have to wonder where targets are. I know that they will be within 100m of the mud hole that sticks out like a sore thumb instead of being dropped off by a truck all around a target. I don’t need anything easier. I do just fine as is.. please comprehend that.

This thread isn’t about air supply but it wouldn’t be a problem for me. I barely go through 2 hurricanes a day. For all I care, go ahead and make it harder for me, make me spawn a dive bomber from the back line.. I don’t give a crap. But then why would you continually make it harder and longer for air to get to target and continually make it easier for guns to get to target. Little bias?

if you ever see the 190’s run to a river town AI when they lose the advantage over a hurricane, you’d know they’re already scared of death.

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16 hours ago, Miked said:

2 trucks can carry like 10 guns which is usually more than enough.

odd - this suggestion of yours. i thought you wanted realism as you made it clear you don't like the 'gamey' aspect of FMSs spawning AA guns. I assumed then you meant 1 truck = 1 gun. 

 

Now I'm just confused, you want to work around one 'gamey' function by using another one? IRL 1 truck = 1 towed gun. the fact that our game has allowed an infinite amount of weight to be towed at max speed across rough terrain by a single truck has always been 'odd'. I figured you being all about realism ... you know.

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16 hours ago, Miked said:

I disagree with the first part. 2 trucks can carry like 10 guns which is usually more than enough. Any more than that and you won’t have players doing anything else. We used to have people that were willing to do this. I’m sure we still do. The more we cater to the lazy steam gamer, the more the game loses is allure to all the people that started playing it for the hardcore game it once was.

while I think the second part would be a neat idea, it’s probably way too far off to even begin dreaming of.

there are free open source AI libraries that could accomplish what i'm talking about. just need to teach one how to drive one of our trucks.

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On 15/04/2018 at 9:43 PM, Miked said:

I shouldn’t have to gang up and waste all my eggs on guns that won’t stop spawning unrealistically.

No, just one bomb... on the FMS.

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17 hours ago, delems said:

Again, have to check my numbers; but there should be like 500 aircraft per side, with a 30 DAY RDP timer (not 15 hours), that is realistic.  Ok, it is a game, go 1000 aircraft with 14 day RDP.

For the attack on France the germans brought over 3.300.000 soldiers but not more than 2445 panzers, most of them Panzer I & II. The number of planes is 3,5k but they brought 120k trucks. Of course most of the soldiers weren't fighting at the fronline but even if you only take 1 out of 10.000 soldiers being actually fighting at the front you get not more than 1 tank, plane or gun for 330 infantrymen. If you want that represented to some degree in game there should be only one single tank for every side and maybe one airplane at the same time. But you could have 2 or 3 people driving trucks around pulling the one and only available gun. I guess nobody wants that. What we want is action driven combined warfare and therefore spawning is needed, including spawning of small support units on the frontline.

17 hours ago, Miked said:

2 trucks can carry like 10 guns which is usually more than enough. Any more than that and you won’t have players doing anything else. We used to have people that were willing to do this. I’m sure we still do.

If you say that a truck in theory can pull 5 AA and ATG guns to town so there is no need for spawning - I'd say a bomber in theory can easily camp the truck spawn and kill 5 towed AA and ATG guns with every bomb + a dozen with his tailgun so there still is need for spawning somewhere else.

The requirement of towing stuff around does work if you got lots of people playing. We don't have those numbers anymore on a regular basis. Think of it like a public transportation company. If you got a big city that needs a lot of transportation you got busses driving every 10 minutes to every location. You can use the bus to get everywhere quite easily. If you got a small FB with maybe two dozens of players the bus to town comes by much less often so you have to wait and wait and wait or switch to personal transportation (spawning). This is where we are at and I think it might be not ideal but better than towing.

Even more so if you consider that low alt air attacks are happen way to often in this game and get away way to easy because there is not enough ground fire and allmost no penalty for wasting your plane while doing suicidal air attacks.

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21 minutes ago, Zebbeee said:

No, just one bomb... on the FMS.

It takes 3- 500lb bombs to take an efms out. Thanks for your input though...

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2 hours ago, madrebel said:

odd - this suggestion of yours. i thought you wanted realism as you made it clear you don't like the 'gamey' aspect of FMSs spawning AA guns. I assumed then you meant 1 truck = 1 gun. 

 

Now I'm just confused, you want to work around one 'gamey' function by using another one? IRL 1 truck = 1 towed gun. the fact that our game has allowed an infinite amount of weight to be towed at max speed across rough terrain by a single truck has always been 'odd'. I figured you being all about realism ... you know.

I realize there is no absolutely realistic mechanism for getting guns to town that would also be fun for layers. But I felt like the old system was a decent compromise

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8 minutes ago, Miked said:

It takes 3- 500lb bombs to take an efms out. Thanks for your input though...

4 to be precise ;)

 

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