Miked

AA adjustments

69 posts in this topic

26 minutes ago, vanapo said:

For the attack on France the germans brought over 3.300.000 soldiers but not more than 2445 panzers, most of them Panzer I & II. The number of planes is 3,5k but they brought 120k trucks. Of course most of the soldiers weren't fighting at the fronline but even if you only take 1 out of 10.000 soldiers being actually fighting at the front you get not more than 1 tank, plane or gun for 330 infantrymen. If you want that represented to some degree in game there should be only one single tank for every side and maybe one airplane at the same time. But you could have 2 or 3 people driving trucks around pulling the one and only available gun. I guess nobody wants that. What we want is action driven combined warfare and therefore spawning is needed, including spawning of small support units on the frontline.

If you say that a truck in theory can pull 5 AA and ATG guns to town so there is no need for spawning - I'd say a bomber in theory can easily camp the truck spawn and kill 5 towed AA and ATG guns with every bomb + a dozen with his tailgun so there still is need for spawning somewhere else.

The requirement of towing stuff around does work if you got lots of people playing. We don't have those numbers anymore on a regular basis. Think of it like a public transportation company. If you got a big city that needs a lot of transportation you got busses driving every 10 minutes to every location. You can use the bus to get everywhere quite easily. If you got a small FB with maybe two dozens of players the bus to town comes by much less often so you have to wait and wait and wait or switch to personal transportation (spawning). This is where we are at and I think it might be not ideal but better than towing.

Even more so if you consider that low alt air attacks are happen way to often in this game and get away way to easy because there is not enough ground fire and allmost no penalty for wasting your plane while doing suicidal air attacks.

The old system may not have been perfect either but it was a better compromise. I can still easily camp an fms with a bomber. At least at an fb you can pull out a bofors to shoot down enemy campers. Send out a tank to distract then roll out bofors.

I get it though. Lazy people want instant action and don’t want to work to get into position. God forbid we take any time to setup a proper attack these days instead of just running 2 fms’ out for instant action.

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If this is really the way CRS and the community wants the game to be, I suggest CRS remove this wording from the homepage “brutally realistic gaming experience” and “every vehicle or weapon is controlled by a real person”.

Edited by Miked

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On 4/15/2018 at 4:19 PM, BLKHWK8 said:

Combined Arms - Have Infantry or Armor take out AA AI pits. Then protect them from being rebuit from Engineers.

Great concept..........except we barely have enough bodies to cover CP's let alone AI pits..........not a dig, just sayin'

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1 hour ago, Miked said:

It takes 3- 500lb bombs to take an efms out. Thanks for your input though...

I couldn’t know because I don’t fly planes, I shoot them down with my AA at the FMS.

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23 minutes ago, Zebbeee said:

I couldn’t know because I don’t fly planes, I shoot them down with my AA at the FMS.

So stick to what you know.. why even bother with inaccurate input that you admittedly know nothing about?

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7 hours ago, Miked said:

I can still easily camp an fms with a bomber. At least at an fb you can pull out a bofors to shoot down enemy campers.

At least you have to actively search for an FMS while putting yourself into danger in the process instead of just hurling bombs onto a known and fixed spawn point that is marked on your map.

And first you were complaining that people can spawn in all the AA guns at the frontline and now you say it's a bad thing that they only can spawn the small ones because they can't defend themselves with 20mm (which in my opinion is pointing towards a badly needed HE audit).

To sum it up: You think everybody who'd rather spawn at a FMS and doesn't want to sit for 10 minutes at a FB, asking in the textchat for a tow and getting bombed and strafed while waiting for some defenseless truck that has to tow him a long way while being bombed and strafed - is lazy. But a bomber pilot that asks in the forums for more defenseless targets spawning at known and fixed spawn points without AA AI rather than at PPOs- he is the defender of realism. I don't think so.

Towing  light AA and AT guns with a Truck under enemy fire right into the combat zone is also not much of a realistic approach.

I don't want to critizise your wish for realism. But I don't think it's productive to call everybody "lazy" who doesn't want to spend his game time wating for someone that might tow him if he just wants to spawn small caliber guns that the infantry would have brought with them anyways. If they can spawn hundreds of infantrymen out of a FMS - they should be able to spawn light AT and AA guns also.

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12 hours ago, vanapo said:

At least you have to actively search for an FMS while putting yourself into danger in the process instead of just hurling bombs onto a known and fixed spawn point that is marked on your map.

And first you were complaining that people can spawn in all the AA guns at the frontline and now you say it's a bad thing that they only can spawn the small ones because they can't defend themselves with 20mm (which in my opinion is pointing towards a badly needed HE audit).

To sum it up: You think everybody who'd rather spawn at a FMS and doesn't want to sit for 10 minutes at a FB, asking in the textchat for a tow and getting bombed and strafed while waiting for some defenseless truck that has to tow him a long way while being bombed and strafed - is lazy. But a bomber pilot that asks in the forums for more defenseless targets spawning at known and fixed spawn points without AA AI rather than at PPOs- he is the defender of realism. I don't think so.

Towing  light AA and AT guns with a Truck under enemy fire right into the combat zone is also not much of a realistic approach.

I don't want to critizise your wish for realism. But I don't think it's productive to call everybody "lazy" who doesn't want to spend his game time wating for someone that might tow him if he just wants to spawn small caliber guns that the infantry would have brought with them anyways. If they can spawn hundreds of infantrymen out of a FMS - they should be able to spawn light AT and AA guns also.

I didn’t say it’s a bad thing that hey can’t spawn big guns at an fms. I thought you’d rather me camp an fb because you can pull out bigger ones. There’s a difference in there. Thanks for twisting my words though.

why do you have to sit spawned in while asking for a tow? Text chat also works when you’re not spawned in. So does discord.

It may not be “productive” to call everyone lazy but that’s the fact of the matter. Why sugar coat it?

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30 minutes ago, Miked said:

It may not be “productive” to call everyone lazy but that’s the fact of the matter. Why sugar coat it?

because that is not in fact, 'the' fact. truth is players will go to extreme lengths to do things they feel are fun or will gain them advantage. the sugar coating is essentially - non combat activities a re fun things lots of players like doing!. that's BS - the truth is non combat activities aren't something the majority of players have ever or will ever do in this or any other action oriented video game.

 

people will never do these boring non combat jobs as much as we would require them to do it for it to be reasonably realistic. IMO, turning trucks into "jeeves" that you can order around, order up, etc etc is a more sustainable path forward for trucks and towing. of course, i'm wrong though and just around the corner is a hoard of support players just waiting to jump in and drive trucks around ...

Edited by madrebel

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10 minutes ago, madrebel said:

because that is not in fact, 'the' fact. truth is players will go to extreme lengths to do things they feel are fun or will gain them advantage. the sugar coating is essentially - non combat activities a re fun things lots of players like doing!. that's BS - the truth is non combat activities aren't something the majority of players have ever or will ever do in this or any other action oriented video game.

 

people will never do these boring non combat jobs as much as we would require them to do it for it to be reasonably realistic. IMO, turning trucks into "jeeves" that you can order around, order up, etc etc is a more sustainable path forward for trucks and towing. of course, i'm wrong though and just around the corner is a hoard of support players just waiting to jump in and drive trucks around ...

I agree about the AI trucks. I think that’s a great idea.

Why would a support style player want to join a game where support isn’t required for any particular facet. Every unit can used solo or by use of a free towing account where it once required teamwork. The towing guns is an example and the running your plane to AI is another, where once you needed your wingmen to help you get clear.

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why should everything require 'teamwork'? right?

 

should getting an ATG into position require more than 1 person? why? here we have a very well defined weapon system, only really good for anti tank and occasionally hardened positions. the atg's primary target can easily and simply be solod. demanding that ATGs be used via no fewer than two accounts when tanks only require one ... well that's a problem. a problem that is going to manifest itself in other ways too. the EI vs tank balance will NEVER be right as long as this ATG vs tank game requires two accounts to manipulate ATGs effectively. 

 

this game has always suffered from 'realism for the sake of realism' ideologies. at launch, literally required 3 buttons to aim and fire. seriously? who gives a [censored] if it is more 'real' it felt clunky and stupid. 

 

ATGs feel clunky and stupid. 

 

as for your comments about support players, you're presuming there are in fact 'support players'. there aren't. no game in the history of games that has had 'support' has ever had enough of said support players actually playing forcing devs to either walk a razor thin line to avoid over powering the role or, just making the role over powered and FORCING squads/clans/tribes/teams/guilds/etc to field one of these OP supporter roles or they just won't be able to compete. support roles suck. <--period

 

IMO we need to seriously start thinking about all the places in this game where we're still requiring "3 buttons to aim and shoot" and think long and hard about those systems or roles. Do we really need them? Have they ever lived up to expectations? If not, then either change the expectation or adjust such that expectations are met but this blind insistence that "there are people out there wanting to play support roles" is just that, blind. My eyes have NEVER seen enough support players yet these forums insist these folks are out there.

 

ok, i still call BS though.

 

*edit*

also, if the ML could be moving AI units about the battle field, there is your new supporter role. Send trucks to build ZOCs, send trucks to resupply, deploy PPOs fron/on/to the map, etc etc. Should be a lot more effective than driving trucks around.

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36 minutes ago, madrebel said:

no game in the history of games that has had 'support' has ever had enough of said support players actually playing

You got games nowerdays that have support players only: Euro Truck Simulator or Farming Simulator. But I am pretty sure those guys won't come over and do all the trucking in WW2online. The players we have now might want to truck around from time to time if it ads to the fun and helps their buddys. But I am pretty sure not many players like to *rely* on trucking because nobody wants to be *forced* to truck things around.

If you got a squad with good numbers online most of the time like the 91st you can usually find someone that tows you. But this is rather the exception than the rule. If I log in while 'mericans are asleep we got low numbers too and the whole transportation company goes bancrupt. Usually that's the time to drive out a Panzer and get some kills because allies won't tow ATGs around aswell.

I have to agree with madrebel: Being forced to tow things around is a concept that had its right but with the game and the playerbase changing it now hampers the flow of the game for a lot of folks. Restricting the need of towing to the big guns is a good step ahead. If you want to bring an ATG that can't be pushed around by hand you need a truck. I think that's ok. If you want to field something that's normally attached to infantry on a much lower level than the big guns, you can spawn it with the infantry at the frontline. I think that's ok too.

Regarding support roles: Most of the games that have something called "support roles" (like a medic or an engineer) don't actually have support roles. They have support bonusses you can choose from instead of combat bonusses. You can heal other players instead of bringing a LMG for example. But of course this "medic" brings his rifle and will be shooting 90% of the time rather than patching up wounds.

I'd always say it adds to the fun and immersion if you can implement support functions, roles an mission types as an opportunity - but not as an necessity.

Having the ability to resupply a tank with a truck so it can fight longer - nice. Having the need to drive a truck to the tank before it can fire his first shot - i would be a pain in the [censored].

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47 minutes ago, vanapo said:

You got games nowerdays that have support players only: Euro Truck Simulator or Farming Simulator.

these aren't action games. they're also not games themed around ww2. it would be cool one day to have ww2 themed trains simulated to some degree no doubt. also, these games don't break sales records. i'm no marketing professional but if i were looking to maximize limited funds targeting ultra niche gaming communities isn't where i'd focus. 

 

but what do i know.

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2 hours ago, madrebel said:

why should everything require 'teamwork'? right?

 

should getting an ATG into position require more than 1 person? why? here we have a very well defined weapon system, only really good for anti tank and occasionally hardened positions. the atg's primary target can easily and simply be solod. demanding that ATGs be used via no fewer than two accounts when tanks only require one ... well that's a problem. a problem that is going to manifest itself in other ways too. the EI vs tank balance will NEVER be right as long as this ATG vs tank game requires two accounts to manipulate ATGs effectively. 

 

this game has always suffered from 'realism for the sake of realism' ideologies. at launch, literally required 3 buttons to aim and fire. seriously? who gives a [censored] if it is more 'real' it felt clunky and stupid. 

 

ATGs feel clunky and stupid. 

 

as for your comments about support players, you're presuming there are in fact 'support players'. there aren't. no game in the history of games that has had 'support' has ever had enough of said support players actually playing forcing devs to either walk a razor thin line to avoid over powering the role or, just making the role over powered and FORCING squads/clans/tribes/teams/guilds/etc to field one of these OP supporter roles or they just won't be able to compete. support roles suck. <--period

 

IMO we need to seriously start thinking about all the places in this game where we're still requiring "3 buttons to aim and shoot" and think long and hard about those systems or roles. Do we really need them? Have they ever lived up to expectations? If not, then either change the expectation or adjust such that expectations are met but this blind insistence that "there are people out there wanting to play support roles" is just that, blind. My eyes have NEVER seen enough support players yet these forums insist these folks are out there.

 

ok, i still call BS though.

 

*edit*

also, if the ML could be moving AI units about the battle field, there is your new supporter role. Send trucks to build ZOCs, send trucks to resupply, deploy PPOs fron/on/to the map, etc etc. Should be a lot more effective than driving trucks around.

Why shouldn’t most units require teamwork? With exception of a few snipers, what in ww2 didn’t require teamwork?

i really haven’t mentioned changes to atg’s by the way. But if any changes were to be made, they wouldn’t require 2 people to be used, only to be set up. They have tow hitches for a reason.

the changes to require less buttons to shoot should be in another thread. I don’t care to debate that, and I’m losing ambition to debate anything left that this game has to offer.

There may not be enough support players out there. We used to have lots. There’s still quite a few seemingly dedicated fb drivers and fms drivers. While they may not be 100% support players all the time, they help out for the sake of the team and I think many other players would do the same even if they don’t do it all day every day.

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1 minute ago, Miked said:

We used to have lots. 

no, sadly, we've never had enough support players. HC is in theory support player nirvana and yet nobody wants to do it. even when the ranks were better staffed the ranks were never filled and just dwindled over time. 

 

back to AA. making it more difficult on players to get player spawned AA into defensive positions isn't the answer. if it were, without some form of player assist automation you could never have 1 gun + 1 truck gameplay as there just aren't enough truck drivers, never will be, and why force someone to do a crap job?. if you're 'ok' with 1 truck = infinity guns then why is this really any different than small guns spawning from FMS? its exchanging an analog for a different analog ... why waste the dev time?

 

small town AA though, just remove it. replace with something players can PPO plae and take control of just remove the AI function as it just gets used defensively by pilots. 

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1 minute ago, madrebel said:

no, sadly, we've never had enough support players. HC is in theory support player nirvana and yet nobody wants to do it. even when the ranks were better staffed the ranks were never filled and just dwindled over time. 

 

back to AA. making it more difficult on players to get player spawned AA into defensive positions isn't the answer. if it were, without some form of player assist automation you could never have 1 gun + 1 truck gameplay as there just aren't enough truck drivers, never will be, and why force someone to do a crap job?. if you're 'ok' with 1 truck = infinity guns then why is this really any different than small guns spawning from FMS? its exchanging an analog for a different analog ... why waste the dev time?

 

small town AA though, just remove it. replace with something players can PPO plae and take control of just remove the AI function as it just gets used defensively by pilots. 

I have never suggested going to a 1 gun 1 truck system. The previous system that allowed about 5 guns was fine with me. I’m ok with that because at least the truck was being used for a semi-realistic purpose. Now it’s used to create Star Trek like beaming pads.

its not difficult to get guns into defensive positions. It’s difficult (or was) to get them into attacking positions.

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Some of the most fun I’ve ever had playing this game was in support roles in what you might call “downtime”. Gliding in troops with para planes, loading TTs with trucks and guns or being a wingman for a better pilot. The more we don’t require that style of teamwork, the less of that teamwork will be done by choice. Ex. Why tow big guns out when you can spawn a small one at an fms and take out anything with the proper angle shot. 

Edited by Miked

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"Previous System" ?

I think, the most small guns we got attached to 1 truck was between 30 and 40
before everyone began to lag around beyond imagination.

There really isnt any star trek to it, a truck had to go to that place to set the spawning point
Same truck could have pulled nearly that amount of light AA guns in one run
So end result is somewhat similar.

No want wants to drive the truck for very long, most probably dont want to drive it at all.
You dont want to drive it.
The people that drove them way back when probably never want to see a truck again cause they got over used and under rewarded

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2 hours ago, merlin51 said:

"Previous System" ?

I think, the most small guns we got attached to 1 truck was between 30 and 40
before everyone began to lag around beyond imagination.

There really isnt any star trek to it, a truck had to go to that place to set the spawning point
Same truck could have pulled nearly that amount of light AA guns in one run
So end result is somewhat similar.

No want wants to drive the truck for very long, most probably dont want to drive it at all.
You dont want to drive it.
The people that drove them way back when probably never want to see a truck again cause they got over used and under rewarded

From what I remember they capped out at 4 small and 2 large guns. I could be mistaken. When hundreds of soldiers and dozens of guns can spawn from a single truck, yeah I think it’s some Star Trek technology, sorry if you disagree. If they were capped at like 15 troops and a handful of guns that would be a little more legit.

How do you know what I do and don’t want to do? Are you using Vulcan mind melds too?

Edited by Miked

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And really, how many guns are you going through every target that you think someone would constantly need to be trucking? Place about 10 guns out there when setting the initial 2 fms’, then replace a few when you need to set a new fms. They shouldn’t be dying every minute

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