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      Hells Gate   03/24/2019

      Break through the lines, and enter Hells Gate!!! This will be the next CRS organized event.  Lead by the High command from each side.
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      Date: 3/30/19 Time: 11:00 AM Server time/ 12:00pm EST/ 1600 GMT
abe250

Tents at FB

30 posts in this topic

Hi. Is it possible to redesign tents at FB to offer some cover?. When you are inside the vehicle tent at FB it is impossible to spawn an atg or bofors if it is camped because it offers no cover at all. The bullets from any EA will go through the tent and kill you and it is impossible to try to do something. In my opinion the tents at veh spawns should give you the possibility to spawn safely and deploy your atg/bofors to have a chance. 

S!

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I have felt this way since day one.

I have always felt that the tents should be more of a command structure with sandbags and barbed wire. That sort of thing. People could shoot out windows and at least spawn without being shot by snipers before they can even TRY to get out of the spawn.

But historically, a lot of field HQs were just tents , and the current tents do have some cover in the form of crates and sandbags.

My own hope would be for some sort of variety.

That said, you can always choose to spawn a mission at the FB and place an FMS there, or spawn an engineer and build atg pits and sandbags for additional cover

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veh tents do not stop bullets from EA, I've been killed many times from EA inside the tent and from my tow saw the bullets going through and killing my main account. Maybe there is a problem in the design of the roof of the tent, because those bullets go inside the tent (maybe only from EA and from a specific angle?... I don't know). Anyway, if an opel can create a structure that offers a solid defense, such as fms, why not to have more or less the same type of cover at the FB?

Edited by abe250

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They can come through any of the openings
and 3rd person trajectories are estimated due to differing latencies etc
so the angle you see bullets coming at you might differ from what the shooter saw.

Can test the roof in a controlled test, but unless it is misbehaving, should be bulletproof by design

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Could FBs be changed to country farm buildings with a larger ground pattern ? I think all veh/inf spawns are far in the open places so no clipping issues to be expected. 

Ideally, make vehicles/guns spawn randomly on the floor of both buildings, while infantries spawn randomly on the upper floor of both buildings, similarly to Depots and AB inf spawn design. 

I would expect their destruction to require more combined arms work.

Eventually, in counter-part, allow bombers to induce X% of the damages (with a damaged state change) so that it lowers the required amount of engineers when coordinated.

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The EA that killed me knew very well what he was doing, he came from the side of the tent, so there was no open space to introduce the bullets that went into from the roof of the tent

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I proposed in another thread, to add a smaller Vehi spawn to the INF spawn and a INF spawn to the Vehicle spawn to cut down camping and more variety.

Don't even have to redesign much just give us one of those concrete round bunkers real close to the Vehi spawn .

Of course you could say just build a FMS at each and you can spawn INF and ATG but both go bye bye once the ML decides to leave and no one takes the mission over and it would take 2 ML to do so.  Even if you could only spawn ATG and AAA at the smaller Vehi spawn it would be a new dynamic in game play and it would need more charges to blow an FB .

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On 18.4.2018 at 11:10 AM, abe250 said:

The EA that killed me knew very well what he was doing, he came from the side of the tent, so there was no open space to introduce the bullets that went into from the roof of the tent

Keep in mind that fighter planes are not restricted to bullets but in most cases got HE rounds also. Of course the splash damage is very low in this game but the veh spawn is rather small and the cannons in most fighters are firing at an angle too. So they can manage to hit a post, a part of your gun or the earth right in front of you with a dozen 20mm HE rounds that might kill you even without you being able to see the plane from your gunner or commander position.

But another problem with the veh tent is that it got a very clearly visible sand "platform" so you will see things better if they are inside than you would see them anywhere else. Makes it easier for the plane to circle above the FB and wait for the next spawn in.

As we got light AA and ATG allready spawning with the infantry around the FMS - why not spawn them close to the Inf spawn at the FB? There is no real need for towing them anymore so there is no reason anyone would want to spawn them in the veh spawn.

Spawning small defensive equipment at the inf spawn would make it harder to camp a FB. I'd say that would be a good thing.

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Thanks all for the replies and ideas, but I'm still missing some words from CRS. I mean, if there is a "game ideas/suggestions" topic, it would be nice to read some feedback from the designers saying something about the ideas and suggestions posted by the players: was it good or not and why; will it be taken in consideration for next developments or not; is it going to be discussed some day or not, etc... Otherwise you (in my case) have the feeling that this topic hasn't been read by the staff and player's  suggestions simply go to waste.

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Give me a few to setup and video, but the sides of the veh tent do not reach the ground. Cannon equipt aircraft comeing in low angle with just the right shot can get cannon rounds under the tent bottom and hitting the fb floor. Shrapnel from the HE rounds will hurt and or kill very close soft targets.

 

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OK, I used a 232 but still mgs and 20mm cannon close with a down angle that a plane could do   

 

2 people like this

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You can kill under the tent sides. Tank he will kill atgs. So air he will probably do the same.

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Thanks Oldzeke for the video. Can you try the same with a spitfire and firing through the roof of the tent. When they killed me it was a plane coming from the side of the tents and the bullets went throught the roof (exclusively the roof). I wonder if there is a specific angle of penetration (45 degrees or whatever) which allows that to happen. And thank you a lot for the job.

S!

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Tested with spit9 in ways I can't show publicly with no rounds hitting the clones through the tent sides or top.

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1 hour ago, abe250 said:

Thanks Oldzeke for the video. Can you try the same with a spitfire and firing through the roof of the tent. When they killed me it was a plane coming from the side of the tents and the bullets went throught the roof (exclusively the roof). I wonder if there is a specific angle of penetration (45 degrees or whatever) which allows that to happen. And thank you a lot for the job.

S!

Because of things like disparity of latency between any 2 clients, some things are not seen in 3rd person quite the same as in 1st person
It is approximated close enough that you can react appropriately, but not 100%

Projectile trajectories are one thing
For example i might see an enemy tank hit the ground 50m in front of me, and have crew 4 die from that shot.
May also see the round be depicted as coming through an object, when it has not truly passed through it but when under or over or beside it.

So you can see aircraft fire hitting tent side, but the shooter himself is shooting down at the gap.
He may also be in a slightly different position in the sky to him, than what you see (He still dies if you see yourself shoot him though)

I know that might seem kind of crummy, but that is how true MMO's work
Otherwise all players would need very low ping times, like if you playing quake, and a lot more network data would need to be sent
among the clients.
Everyone that saw me for example would need an exact feed of my every ballistics calculation, in real time, and i would need the same from them
which is why you dont see a game like quake or unreal or battlefield etc supporting 500+ player servers, because they work exactly like that in a 1:1 environment. 

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Make FBs PPO.

Able to be placed in zones with relationship to the origin towns. Not to close to the tow being attacked. 2+K away.

So, now the enemy has to find it 1st.

Have it be able to build at 3 different levels of supply (time and quantity of engies). The bigger you make it the more supplies. Like an AMMO dump and FUEL dump.

I have posted a more detail of this in the past of which I don't seem to find.

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On 5/14/2018 at 2:25 PM, imded said:

Make FBs PPO.

Able to be placed in zones with relationship to the origin towns. Not to close to the tow being attacked. 2+K away.

So, now the enemy has to find it 1st.

Have it be able to build at 3 different levels of supply (time and quantity of engies). The bigger you make it the more supplies. Like an AMMO dump and FUEL dump.

I have posted a more detail of this in the past of which I don't seem to find.

PPO FBs are untenable. They make the entirety of an AO rest on ONE person. If that person leaves a mission without naming a new leader or disconnects, the entire FB goes down. Even IF CRS were to be able to completely overhaul the mission system and make it so that another member would be automatically made mission leader, there's no guarantee that the mission would always have members. You are also suggesting that a PPO FB would be built by a number of Engineers. A PPO has to be built by a single  person, and if it is a spawn, (And an FB is certainly a Spawn) then it has to be built by a Mission Leader.

The ONLY potentially feasible version of this would be to do away with FBs entirely, and  Have the FMSs made much much tougher, and at the same time create a Vehicle Spawn version as well. The hope would be that enough people would be willing to set these MSPs up to make an attack succeed. However, there would be no guarantee that people would work together on location or placement. No guarantee that anyone would be willing to guard the MSPs. For instance, I have driven any number of INFANTRY FMSs to the front, but as I do not drive tanks, there is no way i would attempt to be a Mission Leader for an Armor MSP. We could easily wind up in situations where NO armor MSPs ever get set, meaning the only reliable way to get armor to an attack is to drive it all the way from the attacking town.

And in trying to figure out how a PPO FB might work, i even envisioned them as HC only placeable PPOs, but the same problem exists: There is no way to make sure that the Mission Leader stays on mission or even logged into the game.

 

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Another member is already made the mission leader unless everyone has typed /autoleader off
I inherit FMS's all the time (I never set autoleader off)

Also a non ML can place the FMS in a mission, as long as the FMS is not already in place
if it is, the ML has to delete it so the non ML can place the new one.

We do that all the time, ML placed initial, secondary guy has truck at the ready.
As initial FMS gets found out, ML deletes, secondary places his FMS, ML cycles back to get another truck
and stands by to cycle in 3rd FMS when needed, and so on.

So in simple, if FB consists of 2 objects
Inf Spawn and Armor Spawn

You could have 1 Command truck roll out, and the driver place BOTH items, for a longer time to fully come on line
Or you could get 2 people going out that have access to the Command truck, and one set each piece, for a faster time to come online
but at the risk of possibly being more noticeable.

And since said FB would not be static and known at all times, and it can not be precamped in the normal sense, 
Said FB could be reinforced against damage, but then opened up to accept damage from everything from large bore HE
to satchels, to bombs.

Now add in a few PPO's for defensive structures

Obviously there are some fine details to consider, but in general, it could be quite tennable
and could possibly add a bit to game play.
Reasons to fly recon, reasons to actually have a scout car.

Why is Hill 301 important?
Now answer: I dunno
Possible Answer: Enemy has an FB on it with 88's covering the road and everything else for 3km around it and heavy AA
lighting up the sky.

Could be fun.

Could an FB go down due to some unforeseen consequence?
Sure, sometimes dumb stuff happens, but at least you can just go and fix it

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11 minutes ago, merlin51 said:

Another member is already made the mission leader unless everyone has typed /autoleader off
I inherit FMS's all the time (I never set autoleader off)

Also a non ML can place the FMS in a mission, as long as the FMS is not already in place
if it is, the ML has to delete it so the non ML can place the new one.

We do that all the time, ML placed initial, secondary guy has truck at the ready.
As initial FMS gets found out, ML deletes, secondary places his FMS, ML cycles back to get another truck
and stands by to cycle in 3rd FMS when needed, and so on.

So in simple, if FB consists of 2 objects
Inf Spawn and Armor Spawn

You could have 1 Command truck roll out, and the driver place BOTH items, for a longer time to fully come on line
Or you could get 2 people going out that have access to the Command truck, and one set each piece, for a faster time to come online
but at the risk of possibly being more noticeable.

And since said FB would not be static and known at all times, and it can not be precamped in the normal sense, 
Said FB could be reinforced against damage, but then opened up to accept damage from everything from large bore HE
to satchels, to bombs.

Now add in a few PPO's for defensive structures

Obviously there are some fine details to consider, but in general, it could be quite tennable
and could possibly add a bit to game play.
Reasons to fly recon, reasons to actually have a scout car.

Why is Hill 301 important?
Now answer: I dunno
Possible Answer: Enemy has an FB on it with 88's covering the road and everything else for 3km around it and heavy AA
lighting up the sky.

Could be fun.

Could an FB go down due to some unforeseen consequence?
Sure, sometimes dumb stuff happens, but at least you can just go and fix it

I guess we will have to agree to disagree. The basic point is that we're NOT juts talking about a single FMS, but the FB. But to make it mobile we would have to completely drop the concept of an FB and move to mobile spawns, ALL of which would have to initially come from the originating town.

There could be no FMSs that come from the PPO FB because you can't have spawn missions inside of a mission. What we would be doing is scrapping the FB entirely and making MSPs the only option. You seem to think that there could be one primary mission, where someone drives out and spawns an FB, and after that everything works like it does now. That's not an option. I don't think it could be an option.

It's one thing to spawn a mission and go build a PPO. It's another to spawn a mission, then build the PPO, then have other people join THAT mission, and then from inside that mission they create their own missions and then go and build their own PPOs close to town. That's where I see everything becoming truly untenable. At this point, you're basically asking CRS to scrap the entire current game mechanic for spawning and build something new. That's even assuming this sort of thing CAN be done. It would probably be easier and less time consuming for CRS to develop and release the next game. And IF such a mission could be developed. it would still make an entire FB's existence  rely on keeping people in a certain mission and  it not just going down because of a logout or disconnect. Also, WHO is going to have the authority to make such a decision for the entire side? If we make it an HC mission, we have to have HC on or no FBs. If we make it Squad, then we let one Squad dictate to others what and where to attack.

As I said, the only feasible option that I could see being possible without gutting and rebuilding the game would be to scrap the FB system and go with an ALL MSP system, where there are only Infantry and Armor Spawn PPOs; and we have to hope enough people volunteer to drive them out AND we get them placed. But this would involve every mission driving all the way from town to town. This would make every attack essentially start at the attacking town, and allow the defender to spend their time trying to interdict MSPs before they can drive all the way to the town they are defending. Sure, it SOUNDS like the countryside fighting that some folks are asking for, but it would really be a game of truck hunt. Let the attacker spend an hour trying to get truck PPOs deployed without success and watch that attack die as people log off.

Now while I personally could live with this approach, many players, especially new ones, don't deal well with anything except rapid action. For this reason, We need FBs that exist reasonably close to the enemy town, are not dependent on a single mission to keep it up, and can spawn MSP missions. The current FBs do all of that; even if they have numerous issues. I find myself amazed that I am defending the current design at all, but we need a better design that does everything the current one does before we scrap it.

 

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49 minutes ago, Quincannon said:

There could be no FMSs that come from the PPO FB because you can't have spawn missions inside of a mission.

There can be, if you tell the host it's ok
Have to update the rules it follows so it knows different, but it has to learn new units that come in, and new towns, new spawn lists etc anyways
so it should live through it.

It could even maybe learn to hang on to the FB and the mission for a few minutes if everyone in the mission crashed
to give them time to log back in, or longer

New UI would of course be a definite requirement
So you would see EASILY that you can spawn at AB, FB or FMS and choose which of those best suits you.


Hunting FB's?
Oh i am sure it would be done, i would hope so.
It would be a shame to have everyone out in the field with no thought of finding and fighting each other

Pre Hunting them?
Well anything is possible, but i would say highly improbable

Take a town, draw a 1km radius circle around it
The FMS is in there and most likely around 700m radius
You can see hear and smell that far, plus you know exactly where the truck setting it will spawn from, which is almost in audio range
so you can kind of easily carry out that hunt if you've a mind to.

FB, not quite so easy (not very fun anyways)
First, assuming you are pretty sure your town is about to be involved in something
go draw a 2+ km radius circle around it, now everything outside that circle, that is how much area you need to cover
Audio wont help you, distance is too far.
Scouts may, but you have to send them unspotted towards the enemies town.
But which town?
May be better off doing air sweeps
but finding 1 truck off romping in any random place in the wilderness may not be easy
Can you find it before it sets up shop?

Maybe,  nothing is impossible, but probably not consistently or frequently.

I'd wager most would prefer to hunt it after it exists when you have a much better chance of finding it
from scouts spotting units coming from its direction and such than hunt for a truck for 2 hours that 
may have gone north out of a town 10km away. 

You might even find that you and the enemy picked the same valley to put your FB's in
Hmm, the battle of red river valley?

And then again, everyone might hate the idea entirely, never can tell.

 

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On ‎5‎/‎16‎/‎2018 at 5:21 PM, Quincannon said:



And in trying to figure out how a PPO FB might work, i even envisioned them as HC only placeable PPOs, but the same problem exists: There is no way to make sure that the Mission Leader stays on mission or even logged into the game.

 

Make it like the engineer PPO dirt bunker. Those last 3 hours. Will last longer if you have someone run over them to refresh the timer.

 

 

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1 hour ago, imded said:

Make it like the engineer PPO dirt bunker. Those last 3 hours. Will last longer if you have someone run over them to refresh the timer.

 

 

Those are NOT spawn PPOs. Here's a thought. Why don't we actually find out if something is even possible before we ask CRS to gut the game entirely and start over between campaigns what say?

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22 minutes ago, Quincannon said:

Those are NOT spawn PPOs. Here's a thought. Why don't we actually find out if something is even possible before we ask CRS to gut the game entirely and start over between campaigns what say?

It's game code - anything is possible.  The real question is, given the limited resources we have, is the ROI worth the opportunity costs?

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