rule303

Late War & Alternative/Post WW2 Tech for Really Late Tiers?

77 posts in this topic

In WW2 Online, we have the tier system in game which effectively represents a year forward into the war etc in the war: Tier 0 being 1939, Tier 1 being 1940, Tier 2 1941 etc. Effectively, we've got a campaign that is now in Tier 9, and has been going for over 2 months. Axis is currently slowly pushing westwards from the campaign start positions, but they are still yet to seize Brussels and Antwerp - and at any time it could easily swing towards Britain throwing the campaign back the other way and further dragging it on. With it currently being Tier 9, we are now effectively in 1949 by maintaining the general logic of the Tier system that the game uses. Assuming technology continues to be developed as the war progresses, should we add in some of the technology that WAS developed during the war, but finalised into production too late to reach the frontlines of Europe by the time of German surrender? In addition, what about some really late war equipment that DID see service in WW2 but isn't in game?

Here are a few examples of such equipment:

UK:
Centurion Tank w/ 17 Pounder: November 1945
Gloster Meteor Jet Fighter: July 1944
Sterling Submachine Gun: September 1944
Browning Hi-Power: March 1945
Hawker Tempest: January 1944
de Haviland Vampire: June 1946
Sherman Firefly: June 1944

France:
ARL44: March 1946
MAS-44: January 1945
Grey Ghost: June 1945

USA:
M2 Carbine: April 1945
P51-D Mustang: May 1944
P82 Twin Mustang: June 1945
T20E2: May 1945

Germany:
Sturmgewehr: October 1943
ME262: April 1944
ME163: July 1944
MG42: July 1942
VG1: October 1944
MP507: January 1945
Panzerfaust: November 1943
Panther: June 1943

Edited by rule303

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I would love to see the Volkssturm infantry class when you speak of late war units. Old men and teens swinging around outdated firearms but a lot of Panzerfausts!

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4 minutes ago, vanapo said:

I would love to see the Volkssturm infantry class when you speak of late war units. Old men and teens swinging around outdated firearms but a lot of Panzerfausts!

I certainly would fit the 'old men' part of the Volksstrum. :P Would 'Depends' be a part of the uniform?

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12 minutes ago, vanapo said:

The_British_Army_in_North-west_Europe_19

That's me on the left.

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7 hours ago, vanapo said:

I would love to see the Volkssturm infantry class when you speak of late war units. Old men and teens swinging around outdated firearms but a lot of Panzerfausts!

That's what I was thinking, a limited number of infantry available only from infantry or LW brigades armed with VG1s or MP507s, but only enough rounds for 2 full reloads and a single Panzerfaust to represent their cheap dispatching with limited supplies. They don't last long in sustained fight because they don't have enough ammo, but in ambushes or in rushes to clear CPs, they would be effective. They also provide a last ditch alternative to push out armour.

Would be awesome if the Americans had a National Guard equivalent in later tiers for infantry brigades as well that are armed with M1 Carbines and a single M18 Recoilless Rifle for balance.

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8 hours ago, vanapo said:

I would love to see the Volkssturm infantry class when you speak of late war units.

What do we do when it takes them 3 hours and 2 naps to get from the AB to the Depot though?
:) 

 

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37 minutes ago, merlin51 said:

What do we do when it takes them 3 hours and 2 naps to get from the AB to the Depot though?
:)

 

Don't forget Bingo! Tuesday and Thursday afternoons before nap time. Then there's crafts and cards on Fridays! :P

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24 minutes ago, rpw1 said:

Don't forget Bingo! Tuesday and Thursday afternoons before nap time. Then there's crafts and cards on Fridays! :P

whoa whoa slow down
im still creeping the walker towards tuesday

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Germans:

PzF 250

PzF250.jpg

latePanzerfaustroundwithsplitterrung.gif

Joystick/wire-guided AT / air-to-air missiles

x4.jpg

Panther II (88mm L/71) for armored divisions:

PantherII.png

Americans:

up-armored Super Pershing for armored divisions:

M26_Super_PershingsoleunitinEuropew.jpg

Persherman for infantry divisions (Sherman with Pershing 90mm turret, APDS, HE, WP-smoke)

T26_turret_on_M4_chassis_zpsjp9ojszh.jpg

3.5 inch bazooka:

NevadaCities.jpg

British:

Centurion for armored divisions (shown here with 20 pounder and next-gen turret, 1945-46 version would have had 17 pounder with sabot ammo)

afv_tank_centurion_mk3.jpg

More like this:

59578885.jpg

 

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11 hours ago, rule303 said:

France:
ARL44: March 1946

Sorry, not correct. The ARL44 project's tank hulls did not have turrets until 1949, were not runnable until 1950 and even then only with confiscated war-booty Panther engines and transmissions, and could not be operated offroad at more than crawl speed due to the suspension being overloaded very close to the static breakage point. 

The ARL44 project existed only because the French tank industry was essentially shut down for most of WWII. If France had fought on in 1940, the G tank likely would have been fielded in late 1941 or early 1942. Later models of the G tank could have been armed with the Schneider long 75mm gun. That 1942-43 tank would have been the basis for French late war tanks...not the historical-fluke ARL44 project.

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Please no ARL-44, B1's drive train was already carrying close to what it was capable of, and they pretty much just slapped that on the ARL-44
and added 120mm of armor on top of it.
The gun was supposedly great but no good unless i want to fight from the VEH spawn, an FT17 would probably do better offroad with 2 old guys pushing it.

This might be fun though?
320px-Renault_G1R_wooden_Mock-up.jpg

 

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Would need the Tiger II.

Then the Maus for the armored division.

After all, the germans did build them. And the Maus was almost used.

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8 hours ago, merlin51 said:

What do we do when it takes them 3 hours and 2 naps to get from the AB to the Depot though?

"PUSH! We allmost got this. They are down to the gaffers allready!"

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Regarding post war tanks: I'd rather not see them in this game tbh. I get flashbacks from war thunder when I see tanks driving around that only where built once as wooden model fighting AFVs from the 1950s.

There is still a lot of stuff we could add to the game that would be fun without touching the fictional "what could have been" path of alternative history and mere fantasy.

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Agree with WWII Tanks only.

Seriously, if I see a centurion or a Patton, I'm out. Same goes for an IS-3 if they put Russians vehicles.

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Rather than adding late-war or post-war equipment, I believe the war should be put on the clock.  In reality, the germans could not have survived a long-term struggle in France and the low countries.  Simply put, if they can't take the Allies out within a certain number of weeks or months, the campaign should be awarded to the Allies.  That solves the need/temptation of putting Tiger IIs downrange, and all that other stuff that would kill the game for those who do bend towards historical accuracy.

 

This game was never graphically the best.  It has always been, though, the only one who combines accurately modeled equipment into a persistent environment.  Making the environment better, then, should be the focus, rather than on adding new toys.

 

S!

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How about no?

 

The whole point is the fact that the Axis can win, and here we are not simulating a war on two front.

With all the different factors, put a clock AND making the allies winner if they aren't kicked off is ridiculous and would destroy the WHOLE point. And making the game incredibly imbalanced.

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On 4/20/2018 at 5:20 AM, kuronyra said:

Would need the Tiger II.

Then the Maus for the armored division.

After all, the germans did build them. And the Maus was almost used.

In an enemy-air-supremacy environment, and particularly in a guided-air-launched-missile environment, the Maus would have been an exceedingly expensive way to distribute large piles of rusting steel across western Germany.

It was not moveable by train, per its width and height. It was too tall to move by special truck. It would not have had the powertrain/suspension/rack durability to move to the front on its own tracks. 

It was too heavy to move across the majority of western Europe's bridges. 

Its huge cost per unit would have diverted scarce funds and production resources from building Panthers, SPAA and supply trucks.

Its slow speed on pavement and impossible immobility off-road in damp/wet weather would have allowed highly mobile opposing forces...like those of USA and Britain...to run around and fly over the road-bound front-line Maus units and annihilate the supply infrastructure behind them. Isolated tanks are relevant for one day, until they run out of fuel. 

Maus was a strange, radically economically dumb idea. There's been criticism in the past of the latter-war German prediliction for looking for Magic Bullets instead of increasing their ability to develop and build proven-effective war-solutions. That criticism was valid.

The Germans had a demonstrated ability to advance the State of the Art in conventional solutions, gaining a temporal advantage until the Allies would catch up. Their plan should have been to stay focused on that, and keep doing it so they had a continuing stream of temporary advantages. The Germans however also had a demonstrated weakness in staying focused. Maus was one of those lost-focus instances. 

Edited by jwilly

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5 hours ago, augetout said:

Rather than adding late-war or post-war equipment, I believe the war should be put on the clock.  In reality, the germans could not have survived a long-term struggle in France and the low countries.  Simply put, if they can't take the Allies out within a certain number of weeks or months, the campaign should be awarded to the Allies.  

Clearly CRS bends that history to have a marketable game. That's unavoidable, because the Germans-have-to-win-or-else time threshold would have been early 1941 at the latest, not sometime in 1943-44 as in the current game.

The German early win and combat experience with very low losses allowed extraction of cadres, around which new divisions were formed. The divisions that went to the Balkans and Greece and to Libya were from that expansion. The cadre approach to army expansion only works if the existing divisions have experience with low losses, so that that experience continues to exist and the second-tier mid-level leaders can take over. The alternative would have been to raise new units from scratch, with inexperienced tactical leaders. That's fine on paper, but it can take a year or more of training before such units are combat-useful. 

The entire German army and air force were committed in France. If France had become an ongoing struggle, there would have been no troops available for the Balkans and Greece, for Libya and for Russia. If Italy had lost Greece and Libya, the Italian govenment might have fallen, and with it any German hope of expansion toward the Middle East's oilfields. Stalin was known to be musing the possibility of attacking toward Poland himself. Germany only had a short time window to succeed in France, or everything would fall apart. 

But, CRS has to have a fun game. A game that offers only the 1940 weapon-set is maybe not so much fun.

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Double-post.

 

 

Also yeah I am aware of the Maus being one of the stupidiest awesome idea of the germans. Was placing mostly with heavy sarcasm behind it.

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6 hours ago, augetout said:

Rather than adding late-war or post-war equipment, I believe the war should be put on the clock.  In reality, the germans could not have survived a long-term struggle in France and the low countries.  Simply put, if they can't take the Allies out within a certain number of weeks or months, the campaign should be awarded to the Allies.  That solves the need/temptation of putting Tiger IIs downrange, and all that other stuff that would kill the game for those who do bend towards historical accuracy.

 

This game was never graphically the best.  It has always been, though, the only one who combines accurately modeled equipment into a persistent environment.  Making the environment better, then, should be the focus, rather than on adding new toys.

 

S!

This fails to seize on the opportunity for alternate reality and also isn’t entirely true.

 

Germany and Italy could have handled the French and BeF for a longer period of time, it would have delayed Barbarossa sure but ... so?

 

Germany was under no significant financial nor industrial pressure - it could have easily handled France. You do recall things like The BoB and Barbarossa right? Where did the man and materials come from for those? They were being built during the BoF. Had the BoF taken longer ... it would have received the stuff already being built.

 

Then there is The BoAtlantic. Here the British empire was in fact on the brink of absolute starvation. If enigma doesn’t get cracked, Britain starves to death. Enigma does get cracked though and the Brits literally sell their soul to the USA and in turn we begin flooding the island with as much material as would fit. 

 

Your desire to place a clock is grossly misplaced. If anything there should be a clock for US entry. If the right criteria aren’t met the US never enters offering to only sell weapons via lend lease. 

 

Germany made many mistakes sure but the French never woulda lasted the way they were operating. Germany absolutely could have starved out the brits no doubt. Wouldn’t even have needed to invade. Had they embraced the Balkan people and flipped them against Russia ... that would have been a different out come too. Still though, zero chance in hell of any form of Fascism out producing the USA and Russia combined. Ultimately Fascism can’t scale and that would have ended it no matter what but your insinuation that the Germans couldn’t handle a protracted engagement in France is kind of silly.

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Forcing the axis to "need to win in X hours or fail" kind of goes completely against the "what if" aspect of the game.
It also heavily forces the axis players to adopt the failures of decision makers long since dead.

Does not make for a terribly good what if game, scenario sure, general game no.

I'd not worry about the Tiger II (Well i'd worry about it if its shooting at you)
By the time it would be ready to go in game, a lot of other things would be worked out so it can be represented properly.
It will probably be less used than one would think, while it wont break down and blow trannies left and right, it will be heavy
and slow, and have issues climbing hills etc.

The Maus, if it was created, would be worse.
It's fun in other games because they totally fudge the mobility (pretty much have to, the games are fast paced) and some other stuff.
It wouldnt get fudged here, so most people would probably find it hateful.

As a defensive piece, it would kind of be ok, once you managed to get it into actual position.
For offense, you would probably need to PM the allies and ask if they could hold off for an hour while
you drive a Maus up from the FB lol.

Panther, brilliant idea
Maus and even Tiger II, What was that imbecil mustached man thinking?

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Maus would be useless. It'd just be suicided into.

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