jwilly

MG34/42 standing/moving fire, like an SMG

51 posts in this topic

Separated out from the "3 top bugs" thread for further discussion, per BLKHWK8's request.

 

Quote

 

If you wish to debate the thoughts put forward here please create another thread as anything going forward of more than the top 3 will be hidden from view. 

You ask for input and more communication and it turns into a cluster totally opposite of the intent of the original post. 

 

 

Clearly full-auto rifle caliber MGs can be spray-fired standing.

What seems to be common in all of the videos is that the shooter puts one leg back, leans into the gun and generally braces himself for the recoil.

I'd call that "standing deploy". 

I reckon standing deploy should be added as a position. Two seconds to set up before you can fire, one second to undeploy before you start moving.

Standing deploy can rotate 30 degrees either side of its original direction, at 30 degrees a second. Any more than that, and you have to undeploy, turn your body, re-deploy and then fire...three or four seconds.

Reload for a one man standing MG34/42 also is problematic, since it takes two hands to do the reload unless there's a support surface available; the reload canisters usually would come from a shoulder bag carried by a second man, and such a shoulder bag is heavy and clumsy if the gunner has to carry it, and get canisters from it with one hand while standing; and the gun isn't modeled with a sling for standing support so is implied to be supported by the shooter's two hands, but that leaves none to handle the empty and full canisters.

Reload during standing deploy should take five seconds...an arbitrary number to reflect that it's physically impractical to do without resting the gun on something or having a helper and certainly takes much longer than that if done without a place to get the full canister from and a way to support the gun in a balanced manner, but we can't require any of those things because there's no modeling for them.

Example of standing deploy...right leg fully extended back, weight on front leg, gun butt under armpit, left hand holds one of the bipod legs:

MG42%20screen%20cap_zpsjzuo8tq6.png

Much of this applies to other full auto weapons as well. Some others with lower ROFs are more suitable for one hand standing reload, since there's less weight to be handled and the magazines are able to be carried in more accessible ways.

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I put it a few threads but since this one is open for debate still, I will put it into this thread also so its not lost in the scheme of things.

"Simple" Fix.

Change the avatar animation for LMGs when running, (and jogging if desired) to the LMG being carried by the carry handle.  Soon as you (jog) walk, or stand still the LMG avatar switches up the ready position.  That way the LMG running feature is coded out like we coded out the need to undeploy the LMG when standing back up, or coded out the ability to run with the RPAT loaded.

That being said, many ppl LIKE the ability to Rambo with LMGs... I figure since the M1919 is coming soon (tm), we should have a compromise.  The BAR, BREN, FM24 and FG42 should at least have the ability to fire on the move - mb limit it to jogging or just keep the run hip fire. These "lmgs" are all very similar, but the belt fed LMGs like the M1919 and MG34 should definitely get the limitations on.  The LMG should be used for what it supposed to be, the SMG should be the street sweeper and cp clearing powerhouse.. because in RL that's what they use.

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German training manual circa 1941 gives instructions on how to fire the MG34 while moving.

Specifically, it can be found in this document:

H.Dv. 130 / 2a (Entwurf): Ausbildungsvorschrift für die Infanterie – Heft 2a – Die Schützenkompanie, 16. März 1941

 

Now, what seems in short supply is references that specifically show such fire happening. However, we also have in short supply of anything showing it didn't or couldn't or wasn't effective or etc. We have training documentation detailing that it can be done and how, but lack the practical. In the absence of other evidence, the only evidence we can really rely on, then, is the training manual. The MG34 can be fired while moving forward. Full stop, period.

 

However, I certainly believe it is fully within the realm of reality and balancing to require that the automatic fire of anything heavier than an SMG force the player to walk speed at an extreme drain to stamina, after which it cannot be fired while moving. A slow, measured pace is the only reasonable way that weapon could be fired on the move. That can be extended not just to the upcoming M1919, but also to the Bren and BAR (and whatever the French have, I can't remember).

The MG42, if it's ever introduced, would be a class beyond that and could only be realistically fired while deployed. That would be the case for the Vickers .303 and Browning .50 Cal if those ever get introduced as well.

 

Edit: on second thought, even the single-man M1919A6 w/ bipod is so heavy and unwieldy that walking fire doesn't appear realistic. It's essentially a non-crew-operated MMG that's just designated an LMG. The M1919 may have to go into the same bucket as future MG42, Vickers .303, and Browning .50, unless there's some documentation of walking fire. Standing fire as an emergency might be realistic, though.

Edited by chaoswzkd

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12 minutes ago, chaoswzkd said:

German training manual circa 1941 gives instructions on how to fire the MG34 while moving.

Specifically, it can be found in this document:

H.Dv. 130 / 2a (Entwurf): Ausbildungsvorschrift für die Infanterie – Heft 2a – Die Schützenkompanie, 16. März 1941

 

Now, what seems in short supply is references that specifically show such fire happening. However, we also have in short supply of anything showing it didn't or couldn't or wasn't effective or etc. We have training documentation detailing that it can be done and how, but lack the practical. In the absence of other evidence, the only evidence we can really rely on, then, is the training manual. The MG34 can be fired while moving forward. Full stop, period.

 

However, I certainly believe it is fully within the realm of reality and balancing to require that the automatic fire of anything heavier than an SMG force the player to walk speed at an extreme drain to stamina, after which it cannot be fired while moving. A slow, measured pace is the only reasonable way that weapon could be fired on the move. That can be extended not just to the upcoming M1919, but also to the Bren and BAR (and whatever the French have, I can't remember).

The MG42, if it's ever introduced, would be a class beyond that and could only be realistically fired while deployed. That would be the case for the Vickers .30 Cal and Browning .50 Cal if those ever get introduced as well.

I don't think the argument is that the MG34 or M1919, bren, bar, fm42 cannot be hip fired on the move.  I think we have shown some evidence of the LMGs from historical video of them doing so, however if you notice they are not running or even jogging they are walking at a slow pace or running and stopping to fire.  I believe also Audy Murphy used a captured MG34 IIRC to take out some german mg nests when he won the CMH while firing it from the hip into the nests as he maneuvered around. For game sakes I rather them all be limited.

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Yes, my main argument wasn't for MG42 etc., but for classifying LMGs as being able to fire while moving, but only at walking speed with stamina loss from handling the gun.

The bit about MG42, M1919, etc. was future-proofing that argument by classifying MMG and HMG as deploy-only. The M1919 is an MMG, and even the A6 version isn't designed to be operated with "walking fire" or "assault fire", so even though the A6 is classified as an LMG I don't think it counts.

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we all know this is just a response to its CQB capabilities and always has been... nothing constructive ever comes out of it

the argument's been studied and dissected from reload times, magazine vs belt, human physical limits, hip-fire impossibility, and my favorite "full power rifle rounds". all exclusively aimed at the MG34

we'll never be productive if we keep focusing on the most offensive unit to a core problem: CQB gameplay

 

 

i say just remove LMG's from depots and put them in AB supply only. maybe add the specialist/NCO stuff to the list eh?

no more rambo MG34 acting like a explosion every 15 seconds.

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52 minutes ago, chaoswzkd said:

Yes, my main argument wasn't for MG42 etc., but for classifying LMGs as being able to fire while moving, but only at walking speed with stamina loss from handling the gun.

The bit about MG42, M1919, etc. was future-proofing that argument by classifying MMG and HMG as deploy-only. The M1919 is an MMG, and even the A6 version isn't designed to be operated with "walking fire" or "assault fire", so even though the A6 is classified as an LMG I don't think it counts.

You are right, the M1919 was not specifically designed for hip fire, however the A6 did have a handle added to it, part as a carrying handle, part because the A4 had been issued a slip over the barrel basket for hip fire. The carry handle could be used in that function. Both the A4 and A6 had training for hip fire operation of the MG. I think the classification for M1919 for the MMG is specific to the A4 because it had a heavy tripod that had to be carried with it. The A6 would be more considered as a LMG because it had a bipod attached to the barrel.  The Germans did adopt a HMG apart from the MG34 and 42 with a tripod.  They did adopt the MG131 13mm cannon from the LW and repurposed them for ground operations after the LW replaced them. Primarily in the light AA role with multiple mounts, but they where also fitted to pintle mounts on tanks.. AND IF I am not mistaken, the pintle mount version had a buttstock and could be removed and used by infantry with a bipod. I have seen a drawing of that configuration, I have yet to have seen a actual photo.

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Re-enactor. Note: no ammo. If the belt box below were attached, it would block his handgrip location at the balance point, and the box extending to the left might block the presence of his left wrist even if he gripped farther forward. He could carry the gun with the handle, but not at the ready position since doing so would require that his forearm be raised with his wrist turned almost 90 degrees downward.

The only good way to carry a gun of this kind at the ready is with a shoulder sling. Unfortunately, I don't have any A6 photos with the sling being used during fast movement. 

splittertarn3.jpg

I've been told that this attached ammo belt-box mount was not used during WWII, though as close as I can tell, all the parts and mount points for it already existed during WWII, This belt box is off center to the left, so will cause the gun to want to twist that way. 

pkmammoboxadapter5.jpg

pkmammoboxadapter3.jpg

pkmammoboxadapter1.jpg

Same gun with a conventional ammo box. Very practical for a two man team with ground deploy, totally impractical for standing fire.

20090104_acff0a656c50af59966f3Ks9nshNAU6

Battleground_006.jpg

Edited by jwilly

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2 hours ago, stankyus said:

I don't think the argument is that the MG34 or M1919, bren, bar, fm42 cannot be hip fired on the move.  I think we have shown some evidence of the LMGs from historical video of them doing so, however if you notice they are not running or even jogging they are walking at a slow pace or running and stopping to fire. 

Exactly. Such a simple point, don't see why this is hard to understand.

Current functionality in game: You can fire MG-34 *while simultaneously* moving at a jogging pace (visually, this looks completely ridiculous in the game).

Real functionality: MG-34 can and was hip-fired while *standing*.

 

References to MG-34 being hip-fired "while moving" refer to moving and *standing to shoot* and moving again. If you claim otherwise, then let's make this real simple: Provide video evidence of an MG-34 being hip-fired while the shooter is *simultaneously* moving at a jogging pace (or frankly *any* pace; I could imagine an unusually strong guy moving at a slow walk, but I doubt even this).

Even Rambo was actually standing still *while* he hip-fired the M-60 (and notice that he has to brace himself). LOL!!!

 

Edited by xanthus

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5 minutes ago, xanthus said:

Real functionality: MG-34 can and was hip-fired while *standing*.

From "Standing Deploy".

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2 hours ago, chaoswzkd said:

The MG34 can be fired while moving forward. Full stop, period.

You have provided zero evidence of this.

A slow walk (and somebody with more upper-body strength than Rambo), maybe.

If you claim otherwise, provide video evidence that it's even *possible* (i.e. video evidence from any decade). This is real simple. Show me someone firing an MG-34 on full-auto and moving forward.

Edited by xanthus

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24 minutes ago, xanthus said:

You have provided zero evidence of this.

A slow walk (and somebody with more upper-body strength than Rambo), maybe.

If you claim otherwise, provide video evidence that it's even *possible* (i.e. video evidence from any decade). This is real simple. Show me someone firing an MG-34 on full-auto and moving forward.

I did provide evidence. The training document I mentioned in my first post in this thread: H.Dv. 130 / 2a (Entwurf): Ausbildungsvorschrift für die Infanterie – Heft 2a – Die Schützenkompanie, 16. März 1941

As far as video evidence: I'm not sure it exists. As I pointed out, again in my first post, we lack supporting evidence of it happening. However, as I further pointed out, again in that same post, we lack supporting evidence of it not happening. As such, with the only actual evidence we have being German military training manuals for firing while moving, our only available conclusion to make is that it was possible.

So no, I will not be posting video evidence because I'm not going to try to find any. A verified, German military training document detailing that it is possible and the steps the soldier must take to do it should be sufficient in the absence of counter-evidence.

 

Edit: Also, if you actually read my post in full, you'd read that I am in fact advocating for forcing the player to walk (hotkey 't' in-game iirc) when firing an LMG. That is much slower than the normal jogging pace.

Edited by chaoswzkd

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Same discussion as in >3 other threads. As soon as everybody said what everybody says on this topic there is a new threat where we start this all over again.

That only the MG34 and not the BAR is in the headline is sufficient enough to repeat all my arguments again. So here we go:

If you want to restrict firing of the MG34, this cannot be restricted to the MG34 alone. The BAR is just as unlikely to be fired full auto while "Jogging" around without shooting yourself in the foot.

What everybody here is calling "Jogging" is the normal walking speed. Calling it "jogging" is just an exaggeration to strenghten your argument. For your information: you start to "jog" when you press "auto-WALK". So please stop call it jogging or we have to rename this function to "auto-jog".

If you think the walking speed in this game is not suitable to fire guns on full auto, ask for a slower movement speed which is suitable. It should apply to all LMGs and bigger firearms. Let's see how all of us like that.

If you think big firearms with heavy recoil should freeze your movement when you start firing than that's ok. Just don't restrict it to the MG34. Let's see how all of us like it. I am totally ok with that.

And yes, the reloading speed for the MG34 is joke, especially while "jogging"- but that's true for most of the guns. (Looking at you, semi-semi auto enfield, rechambering at 0.1 seconds while jogging around)

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3 minutes ago, vanapo said:

If you think big firearms with heavy recoil should freeze your movement when you start firing than that's ok. Just don't restrict it to the MG34. Let's see how all of us like it. I am totally ok with that.

And yes, the reloading speed for the MG34 is joke, especially while "jogging"- but that's true for most of the guns. (Looking at you, semi-semi auto enfield, rechambering at 0.1 seconds while jogging around)

Excellent. Fire only from Standing Deploy, 2 seconds to deploy, 1 second to undeploy. Standing Deploy is right leg back and straight, weight forward on left leg, gun butt under armpit. Limited to 30 degrees to left and right without undeploying and redeploying. Turn rate = 30 degrees a second.

5 seconds to reload seems like a reasonable compromise between gameplay and the very difficult one-man physics for a heavy-canister weapon like MG34/42. Other weapons' times might be shorter (i.e. magazine fed weapons) or longer (i.e. M1919A6 with pin attached box).

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2 minutes ago, jwilly said:

Excellent. Fire only from Standing Deploy, 2 seconds to deploy, 1 second to undeploy. Standing Deploy is right leg back and straight, weight forward on left leg, gun butt under armpit. Limited to 30 degrees to left and right without undeploying and redeploying. Turn rate = 30 degrees a second.

5 seconds to reload seems like a reasonable compromise between gameplay and the very difficult one-man physics for a heavy-canister weapon like MG34/42. Other weapons' times might be shorter (i.e. magazine fed weapons) or longer (i.e. M1919A6 with pin attached box).

No. Let that be for MMG, possibly HMG if it makes sense. Let LMG be fired while moving only at walking pace.

This is the only reasonable compromise. MG34 training documentation says it's possible, so removing it is unrealistic and will be perceived as Allied bias. Limiting it to only the MG34, esp. when other LMGs had explicit *walking* fire doctrines (like the BAR) will be seen as unrealistic Allied bias. Doing nothing will be seen as a continued slap in the face to Allied players by CRS. Just do this and everyone drop the issue already.

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32 minutes ago, jwilly said:

Re-enactor. Note: no ammo. If the belt box below were attached, it would block his handgrip location at the balance point, and the box extending to the left might block the presence of his left wrist even if he gripped farther forward. He could carry the gun with the handle, but not at the ready position since doing so would require that his forearm be raised with his wrist turned almost 90 degrees downward.

The only good way to carry a gun of this kind at the ready is with a shoulder sling. Unfortunately, I don't have any A6 photos with the sling being used during fast movement. 

splittertarn3.jpg

I've been told that this attached ammo belt-box mount was not used during WWII, though as close as I can tell, all the parts and mount points for it already existed during WWII, This belt box is off center to the left, so will cause the gun to want to twist that way. 

pkmammoboxadapter5.jpg

pkmammoboxadapter3.jpg

pkmammoboxadapter1.jpg

Same gun with a conventional ammo box. Very practical for a two man team with ground deploy, totally impractical for standing fire.

20090104_acff0a656c50af59966f3Ks9nshNAU6

Battleground_006.jpg

There is a training video of the A4 out there that shows how to use the basket handle for hip fire and advancing hip fire.. IE walking forward. In that video the M1919 has a loose belt of ammo, no box attached. I gave a brief look to find it and cant. It might have been on the Funkers web site.

However I found this which is ironically labelled Rambo shooting.

Notice glove only, and the M1919 had a barrel changing glove as a part of the kit. The basket assembly, later replaced by the A6 handle for the A4 was an angled handle instead of the straight basket handle. This is the A4, using metal links.. but illustrates he idea.

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This is the only reasonable compromise. 

Heh. Well, in your opinion, anyway. :lol:

Quote

Let LMG be fired while moving only at walking pace.

Maybe CRS should distinguish between LMGs and automatic rifles based on ammo capacity, feed rate and quick barrel change capability. It's a fact that different armies used the same term, but they had very different weapons because they had very different definitions for that term. In modern hindsight, some of those "LMGs" were automatic rifles.

***

An equally important element of use of an MG as a giant SMG is unlimited angular turn-rate, enhanced by the game engine's inability to locate a collider at the outboard end of the long weapon. 

A limited turn rate might be able to be added, i.e. 45 degrees per second. I don't know if the game engine can control that or not. Certainly turn-as-fast-as-your-controls-will-go is unrealistic, though.

If long weapons had colliders at both ends, and if violent deceleration due to catching your weapon on a door frame or wall as you run into a building caused realistic serious injuries i.e. broken arms or collarbones, there'd be a lot less use of long weapons in such unrealistic ways. Unfortunately the game can't support that yet.

 

Edited by jwilly

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Seriously, all this is whining, the fact remains it is possible to wield a 30lb to 50lb lmg while jogging, I HAVE DONE IT IN REAL LIFE.   Once you are trained in the military there are many things you once thought that was impossible you realize are completely possible.   I have run 3 miles with 80lb ruck an M249 with 2 extra boxes of 200rnds up a [censored] mountain in S.Korea in under 28 minutes.  if you think people can't carry one LMG that weighs max 50lb, you must be one weak person.   Once you build up muscle you also become more accurate, training also builds muscle memory, The ignorance of this conversation astounds me.  Trust me when I fire the German LMG in the game it is not accurate at all,  The only reason you get a kill is like an SMG, it puts many rounds down range, hence the phrase "SPRAY AND PRAY!"

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This being an internet forum, the usual rules apply: trust but verify.

Which is why valid evidence is required.

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1 hour ago, waldojr said:

I have run 3 miles with 80lb ruck an M249 with 2 extra boxes of 200rnds up a [censored] mountain in S.Korea in under 28 minutes.  if you think people can't carry one LMG that weighs max 50lb, you must be one weak person. 

(facepalm)

Nobody has an issue with anyone being able to run with an LMG.

Nobody has an issue with the fact that a trained solider can "run 3 miles with 80lb ruck an M249 with 2 extra boxes of 200rnds up a [censored] mountain."

You're not understanding this.

The issue is, did you fire the M249 while simultaneously moving at a jogging pace?

Think long and hard about this. The question might not be asking what you think it is.

I am not asking whether or not you have held an M249 and ton of other stuff while running.

I am not asking whether or not you ran, paused and hip-fired the M249, and then immediately proceeded to run again.

I am asking whether or not you have held down the trigger so that the M249 was on fully-automatic fire, spitting out rounds at the weapon's maximum RoF, and while that was happening (that is, while your finger was held down on the trigger), you were also running.

If you answer in the affirmative, I would be astonished. In fact, all you have to do is show me one video of someone doing that, and I will be astonished.

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8 hours ago, chaoswzkd said:

I did provide evidence. The training document I mentioned in my first post in this thread: H.Dv. 130 / 2a (Entwurf): Ausbildungsvorschrift für die Infanterie – Heft 2a – Die Schützenkompanie, 16. März 1941

I find it hard to believe that the training document *actually* states that a soldier should be firing the MG-34 in fully automatic and simultaneously moving at the same time. If something like this is stated, I'd be willing to bet that the intention is for the soldier to stand and brace himself, hipfire the MG-34, then move, then rinse and repeat.

If a training document tells a soldier to fire a bolt action rifle "while moving," they don't mean that a soldier is going to be firing multiple rounds all while working the bolt *and moving at the same time*; they generally mean, fire a shot, move, fire a shot, move, etc.

Edited by xanthus

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8 hours ago, vanapo said:

What everybody here is calling "Jogging" is the normal walking speed. Calling it "jogging" is just an exaggeration to strenghten your argument. For your information: you start to "jog" when you press "auto-WALK". So please stop call it jogging or we have to rename this function to "auto-jog".

The game has three movement speeds for infantry in the standing position:

walking, jogging, sprinting.

The default movement speed when in the standing position is the jogging pace.

Walking is enabled by pressing t (did you not know this)?
 

If you press t, you will switch to a walking pace; press g (default last I checked) then, and you'll be auto-walking.

 

The distinction is highly relevant to this discussion, because maybe a possible solution is that hip-firing an LMG defaults you to walk speed (if it's possible to fire an mg-34 while moving).

The extreme solution in my view would be the standing deploy discussed here. I'm not convinced that's the best solution (just restricting movement to walking pace while the mouse button is held down seems simpler to me IMO), but I'm open to it.

Edited by xanthus

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