jwilly

MG34/42 standing/moving fire, like an SMG

51 posts in this topic

Regarding walking fire with an LMG...in this case, the M1919A4 and a dangling belt...check out 1:00 to 1:09 of this Gunny video. 

This of course is tactically stupid in real life. As Scotsman has told us from his professional experience, standing up to shoot in a combat situation will get you killed.

But I'm satisfied from the video for game purposes that walking fire is practical with the A4, and by extension the A6 and the MG34, within one ammo load.

The MG42 might have enough additional sustained recoil force (~50% more) that walking would be difficult, or practically non-feasible. I think we need more evidence on that. We've seen videos of fairly big guys bracing themselves just to fire from a standing position, and other videos of guys being shoved backwards pretty hard.

I don't think we have any valid evidence yet of successful firing at any movement speed faster than a walk.

I also don't think we have valid evidence that a long, heavy gun like this can be rapidly swept in a circle while dealing with that recoil force. The center of mass of the gun will be about half a meter forward of the rotary axis of the shooter. That's a lot of polar moment of inertia to overcome. That shooter will have to apply a large accelerating force normal to both the weapon-weight supporting force (i.e. aiming) and the recoil withstanding force. 

The biggie, I think, is reloading. Holding the gun with two hands, and reloading with at least one and maybe two hands, and dealing with where the ammo is being carried, and the total weight of the gun and full ammo load, sounds difficult. We need video of someone reloading a belt fed or canister/belt fed LMG by themselves under simulated combat conditions while standing, including getting the new ammo out from wherever it's being carried.

 

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10 minutes ago, xanthus said:

The game has three movement speeds for infantry in the standing position:

walking, jogging, sprinting.

The default movement speed when in the standing position is the jogging pace.

Walking is enabled by pressing t (did you not know this)?
 

If you press t, you will switch to a walking pace; press g (default last I checked) then, and you'll be auto-walking.

 

The distinction is highly relevant to this discussion, because maybe a possible solution is that hip-firing an LMG defaults you to walk speed (if it's possible to fire an mg-34 while moving).

The extreme solution in my view would be the standing deploy discussed here. I'm not convinced that's the best solution (just restricting movement to walking pace while the mouse button is held down seems simpler to me IMO), but I'm open to it.

My last post got buried on the last page, but just to be clear:
My own preferred solution (posted way back in the nearly decade old zombie thread) is that hip-firing should default to walk speed (despite the fact that some players don't realize that walk speed even exists).

 

jwilly, excellent find.

 

FWIW, given the comments in this thread, I don't think players realize just how fast the jogging pace in the game actually is. Now having seen that video, I'm even more convinced that restricting lmg movement to walk speed (just like the slow walk we see in the video) is the right solution and that firing while moving at the game's jogging pace is absolutely F-ing riduclous.

Edited by xanthus

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I particularly was impressed by the part in the (obviously staged) M1919A4 clip where the shooter walks up to the shed he's Rambo-assaulting, sticks the gun in the window, and presumably shoots the wounded on the floor. Tacky.

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15 minutes ago, jwilly said:

I particularly was impressed by the part in the (obviously staged) M1919A4 clip where the shooter walks up to the shed he's Rambo-assaulting, sticks the gun in the window, and presumably shoots the wounded on the floor. Tacky.

Paying close attention and none of that whole sequence looks especially easy for him (notice his face and the way his elbow moves back, the jerkiness in his walk). That ain't easy, that's for sure.

Nevertheless, slow walk it is.

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I have fired an m249 while walking, in a previous post about this in the barracks I said I shot an M60 LMG while running in basic training which is even heavier.  The M249 was live ammunition at a range and my Platoon Seargent had me give examples of many weapons as I was his driver at the time, I was walking up and down the range shooting 500 rounds at targets 50m away to show what happens when a barrel melts as I just got issued two new ones from the armoury, I wanted to see if I could still shoot expert, I did not, but I would have qualified if it counted, meaning half of my hits hit the targets.   The target had 300m, 250m, 200m, 150m, 100m, and 50m, targets on one paper. The M60 was firing blanks, with Laser tag equipment, the blank adapter malfunctioned and shot out of the barrel hitting another soldier mid chest 50m away.  We laughed our asses off and it can be accurate.  Is it NOT common practice, but it is more than doable.    You can doubt all you want but you sound like a bunch of whiners to me.   I don;t even use the lmg anymore, but when I see a stupid post like this I am compelled to correct it.

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15 minutes ago, waldojr said:

I have fired an m249 while walking, in a previous post about this in the barracks I said I shot an M60 LMG while running in basic training which is even heavier.  The M249 was live ammunition at a range and my Platoon Seargent had me give examples of many weapons as I was his driver at the time, I was walking up and down the range shooting 500 rounds at targets 50m away to show what happens when a barrel melts as I just got issued two new ones from the armoury, I wanted to see if I could still shoot expert, I did not, but I would have qualified if it counted, meaning half of my hits hit the targets.   The target had 300m, 250m, 200m, 150m, 100m, and 50m, targets on one paper. The M60 was firing blanks, with Laser tag equipment, the blank adapter malfunctioned and shot out of the barrel hitting another soldier mid chest 50m away.  We laughed our asses off and it can be accurate.  Is it NOT common practice, but it is more than doable.    You can doubt all you want but you sound like a bunch of whiners to me.   I don;t even use the lmg anymore, but when I see a stupid post like this I am compelled to correct it.

249 is 5.56mm - same recoil as the m16/m4/ar15 (which is not much) not even in  the same class as a Lmg or Hmg.  Same thing with  an M60 firing blanks there isn't much recoil (carried one for the better part of a decade) 

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49 minutes ago, xanthus said:

My own preferred solution (posted way back in the nearly decade old zombie thread) is that hip-firing should default to walk speed (despite the fact that some players don't realize that walk speed even exists).

If you insist on calling the pace we are moving at while still being able to fire guns "jogging" instead of walking - please explain to me why it's still possible to "jog" when you are bleeding out to death and why it's called "walking" in context of the game manual. It's the normal walking speed in this game. It's the speed at which you walk.

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M60 has lower rate of fire but is lighter then the Mg 34, but still...…….

Anyone think he couldnt have walked and fired?....dont forget the skill factor….he do know how to hold that gun.

 

 

 

Edited by Hardlead

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OK let's put this to rest once and for all.

 

The MG34 actually had a selective trigger , by that I mean u pressed the top part of the trigger it fired Semi Automatic,  the bottom part u got the Full Auto version.

http://www.smallarmsreview.com/display.article.cfm?idarticles=1870

Here is the part out of the article itself.

The select fire trigger is complicated mechanically but a pleasure for the gunner. The upper part of the trigger when pulled will fire semiautomatic while the lower part of the trigger will fire fully automatic. The complex adjustable cyclic rate (600 rpm or 1000 rpm) selector incorporated into the pistol grip was discontinued early on because the troops preferred the high rate of fire.

here is what the trigger looks like.

https://www.google.com/search?q=mg34+being+fired+with+selective+trigger&rlz=1Y3YOJM_enUS610US624&biw=360&bih=559&tbm=isch&prmd=sivn&source=lnms&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjpscHL2b_bAhUQbK0KHYOWBb0Q_AUIECgC#imgrc=p4y7E14bjV7O2M:

 

Now how CRS can or would like to implement that is completely up to them , but I'm damn well sure a Soldier can  * jog* and fire said MG34 in Semi Auto mode and all it requires the Soldier to do so is have the trigger finger on the top part of the Trigger.

Edited by dre21

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10 minutes ago, dre21 said:

OK let's put this to rest once and for all.

Heh. Not likely.  :D

Quote

The MG34 actually had a selective trigger

My recollection back in the early days is that CRS said the game engine didn't provide a control mechanism for a selective-fire weapon capability.

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19 minutes ago, jwilly said:

Heh. Not likely.  :D

My recollection back in the early days is that CRS said the game engine didn't provide a control mechanism for a selective-fire weapon capability.

Well there ya go , 

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On 6/5/2018 at 0:13 PM, stankyus said:

I don't think the argument is that the MG34 or M1919, bren, bar, fm42 cannot be hip fired on the move.  I think we have shown some evidence of the LMGs from historical video of them doing so, however if you notice they are not running or even jogging they are walking at a slow pace or running and stopping to fire.  I believe also Audy Murphy used a captured MG34 IIRC to take out some german mg nests when he won the CMH while firing it from the hip into the nests as he maneuvered around. For game sakes I rather them all be limited.

In the end, you will lose the argument on the MG34. If somehow you convince the rats, despite all evidence to the contrary, that it cannot be fired while standing or from the hip (which looks even easier), I will counter with the "fact" that you must then allow it to shoot you through a concrete wall. The end result will be the same except for one minor difference. You will not see me walk into the room just before you splatter.

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13 hours ago, Hardlead said:

M60 has lower rate of fire but is lighter then the Mg 34, but still...…….

Anyone think he couldnt have walked and fired?....dont forget the skill factor….he do know how to hold that gun.

 

 

 

 I have done some course shooting with my AR and AK.  I don't know how one would fire faster than a walk pace anyway, even when you are running to the next station, mag change is not easy and at times you forget to whip your riffle to clear the empty mag from the gun quickly having it hang in the riffle. You wind up at the next stating without a fresh mag in or in the process of popping the new one in.   Every fiber in your being makes you stop to shoot - but mb that more about trying to hit targets but still. Its not a natural feeling and TBH even walking forward shooting an just an AR from the hip at a 50 gallon drum 20yrds away you find yourself naturally at a very slow walk.  The only way I was able to pick up the pace and shoot was to the side of me horizontal to feel any modicum of comfort, I was still not able to bring myself to what I would call a jog.  The fear of tripping was very real and the fear of sending a shot over the 30 foot backdrop on his property and killing someone 2 miles away was also very real.  I know its not combat, but even then I would think tripping and shooting a buddy or yourself over poor riffle control and ammo waisting in a combat zone is also very real.. or I would imagine it to be.  I would think that firing while moving quickly was more about adrenaline, fear, possibly surprise or absolute necessity.

 

My dad was a chopper pilot in Vietnam and did long range insertions of Special forces from all branches when recce drones went down for retrieval and destruction. One of his buddies was a LRRP, and when they got ambushed, they had to put as much firepower down range while beating feet out of their. The drill was for them to leap frog backing out, 2 guys would fire full auto in the ambush direction while the other 4 rand down the trail. The second pair would then stop, turn and wait for the guys who where behind them that emptied their mags to leap frog past them and the next two guys would empty their mags at the ambush.. rinse and repeat as they high tailed it out of their. THEY did not fire on the move - they stopped and went full auto sweeping the ambush area.

 

I'm not totally against having some ability doing it in the game - hell I love doing it in the game but its done so much in the game its way way overboard.

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7 minutes ago, Sudden said:

In the end, you will lose the argument on the MG34. If somehow you convince the rats, despite all evidence to the contrary, that it cannot be fired while standing or from the hip (which looks even easier), I will counter with the "fact" that you must then allow it to shoot you through a concrete wall. The end result will be the same except for one minor difference. You will not see me walk into the room just before you splatter.

You only read the first sentence didn't you.  Even then you did not either read what I was responding too and mistook the context, or misread the first sentence to have come to that conclusion.  I never EVER said you could not fire from the hip or walk and fire ANY of the MGs in the game.

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8 minutes ago, stankyus said:

You only read the first sentence didn't you.  Even then you did not either read what I was responding too and mistook the context, or misread the first sentence to have come to that conclusion.  I never EVER said you could not fire from the hip or walk and fire ANY of the MGs in the game.

I read it, just like all the other posters who make the same argument. I just did not feel like respecting the comment since it is a senseless point you are trying to make. How, if nobody walked them to the point of fire, did the MG34 get there. Does is magically appear in the soldiers hand when he needs it or does he indeed carry it around with him. If I am correct, he carries it around with him. If I am correct, and he has it in his hands, he can fire it after walking it to where he wants to shoot it. I haven't seen many videos of guys showing how they carry their guns up to the firing range but I believe that's how the guns get there. Yours and others arguments make no sense at all to me. It's a very lame argument imo. Common sense says so.

 

Edited by Sudden

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Just now, Sudden said:

and this example

 

I don't know what your are going on about.

I said that you should be able to move and shoot and hip fire. I said it should be in this game.  I showed examples of ppl shooting the A4 doing it.

I said that using the MGs as street sweepers and running in cps clearing them out at full pace is non-sense.  I said I like doing it in the game. I said the best way to code it out is just to change the avatar animation while RUNNING to the carry position and while jogging, walking or standing still the animation goes over to the ready position.  I said the SMG should be the king of the cp and street sweeper... I talked about how the M1919 had training to assault fire it... I NEVER said get rid of  shooting the MGs from the hip or while moving at all.

What are you arguing with me about, I'm just not getting it. What am I missing here?

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18 minutes ago, Sudden said:

In the end, you will lose the argument on the MG34. If somehow you convince the rats, despite all evidence to the contrary, that it cannot be fired while standing or from the hip (which looks even easier), I will counter with the "fact" that you must then allow it to shoot you through a concrete wall. The end result will be the same except for one minor difference. You will not see me walk into the room just before you splatter.

Let's not over-infer concrete penetrability by 7.62 ball. He was shooting at modern concrete blocks, which are well known to be brittle and not at all what one would build a fortified building from.

I think it's reasonable to assume that game bunkers are built of poured reinforced concrete, as that was normal in the 1940s. Here are a WWII photo and a modern photo of a reinforced concrete structure in Normandy that took a considerable amount of plunging naval AP fire. Caliber unknown, but the vessels offshore were cruisers, battleships and destroyers, so it's likely that the smallest caliber used was 4 inch...somewhat bigger than 7.62mm, and AP rather than ball.

normandie_1944_then_now_27.jpg

normandie_1944_then_now_28.jpg

Blocks fail due to shock in flexure. Solid reinforced concrete practically doesn't have a flexure mode, and is extremely strong against shock compression.

So, I don't think we should ask CRS to make rifle caliber ball ammo go through walls that should be concrete.

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3 minutes ago, jwilly said:

Let's not over-infer concrete penetrability by 7.62 ball. He was shooting at modern concrete blocks, which are well known to be brittle and not at all what one would build a fortified building from.

I think it's reasonable to assume that game bunkers are built of poured reinforced concrete, as that was normal in the 1940s. Here are a WWII photo and a modern photo of a reinforced concrete structure in Normandy that took a considerable amount of plunging naval AP fire. Caliber unknown, but the vessels offshore were cruisers, battleships and destroyers, so it's likely that the smallest caliber used was 4 inch...somewhat bigger than 7.62mm, and AP rather than ball.

normandie_1944_then_now_27.jpg

normandie_1944_then_now_28.jpg

Blocks fail due to shock in flexure. Solid reinforced concrete practically doesn't have a flexure mode, and is extremely strong against shock compression.

So, I don't think we should ask CRS to make rifle caliber ball ammo go through walls that should be concrete.

I lived in Germany prior to and after the wall came down. I had been in East Berlin prior too and after the wall came down.  One of the incredible features in East Berlin at the time was that the East Germans where not allowed to repair to bullet and frag damage to the exterior of the buildings. A curtacy reminder from the Russians. You could walk down the street and see all kinds of pock marks on the buildings, some had spatter marks from small HE rounds. Some where deep enough to put your fist into them but most where about as deep as your finger nail. So a lot of architecture from ww2 in E. Berlin was still around and still damaged. Not even bunkers and TBH I think you would be hard pressed to find cinder blocks in 30-40s Europe. Stone walls and fences, yes. Plaster and wood framing - yes. Brick, yes but the walls are pretty thick brick as they where load bearing in many cases.  That really belabors the point however... but I though I would tell you a cool story.

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3 hours ago, jwilly said:

Let's not over-infer concrete penetrability by 7.62 ball. He was shooting at modern concrete blocks, which are well known to be brittle and not at all what one would build a fortified building from.

I think it's reasonable to assume that game bunkers are built of poured reinforced concrete, as that was normal in the 1940s. Here are a WWII photo and a modern photo of a reinforced concrete structure in Normandy that took a considerable amount of plunging naval AP fire. Caliber unknown, but the vessels offshore were cruisers, battleships and destroyers, so it's likely that the smallest caliber used was 4 inch...somewhat bigger than 7.62mm, and AP rather than ball.

normandie_1944_then_now_27.jpg

normandie_1944_then_now_28.jpg

Blocks fail due to shock in flexure. Solid reinforced concrete practically doesn't have a flexure mode, and is extremely strong against shock compression.

So, I don't think we should ask CRS to make rifle caliber ball ammo go through walls that should be concrete.

When our old bunker comes back I would agree but the current bunker??? It is a fantasy.

Re above comment: I want us all to get to a point where as a group,  we decide whether or not the MG34 (or any other aspect of the game) is taking too much fun out of the game. Then, we agree to a compromise. For instance, if the MG34 must be crippled a little for the sake of game play I would expect axis to receive something competitive with the thompson for room clearing. That would satisfy me. Crippling the MG34 otherwise is not acceptable simply because it indeed can be transported by a single man from point A to point B. I have no doubt that adrenaline makes clearing a building while hip shooting  and moving from room to room easier than you think it it should be. If you must cripple the LMG then don't attack the gun, attack the player stamina instead. Clearing a building should cause a rapid drop in stamina and a longer recovery time when carrying a heavy weapon (insert all my whines about the zook marathon). Can the rats do this? Probably not yet so we may have to compromise in some other way. My in game tests of the MP40 show stamina effects are way off and cause too much dispersion (I provided evidence of this a year or so ago in another thread). The MP40 is plenty accurate, the way the rats model human endurance is not accurate enough.

Edited by Sudden

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how about forcing ADS fire in LMG's? (no hip fire, must be ADS)

simulate the slowness of moving the gun around and get rid of his CQB dominance(slower reaction, no full screen bullet spread), at the same time giving everyone a cool new feature

Edited by major0noob

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On 6/6/2018 at 0:05 AM, vanapo said:

If you insist on calling the pace we are moving at while still being able to fire guns "jogging" instead of walking - please explain to me why it's still possible to "jog" when you are bleeding out to death and why it's called "walking" in context of the game manual. It's the normal walking speed in this game. It's the speed at which you walk.

Infantry have 3 speeds

WALK
JOG
SPRINT

each speed has a standing and crouching mode

Walk is a on/off toggle key, when toggled off you jog
you spawn in with it off by default and you are in JOG mode

Sprint is a momentary on key, only remains on for duration of keypress

As far as why you can jog when hurt bad.
Jog simply has not been tied to ATP/Health.
Could probably be reworked to be that way, probably should be at some future point.
Only reason i imagine it was not originally is that infantry had to hoof it on foot a lot more back then

 

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11 minutes ago, merlin51 said:

As far as why you can jog when hurt bad.
Jog simply has not been tied to ATP/Health.

Please get this ticketed...clearly it's a bug.

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6 minutes ago, jwilly said:

Please get this ticketed...clearly it's a bug.

LoL

You may be right.
Be the longest bug in the history of the game :)

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So the standard movement speed is to jog and you can jog while being heavily wounded and small ATGs are also moving around on jogging speed and when you hit "autowalk", you start jogging.

We seem to have different definitions of "jogging".

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