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frantish

How to make RDP cause significant impact, but not hurt game play or make players angry

Should CRS try this RDP production plan?   18 members have voted

  1. 1. Make RDP effect the ratio of offensive / defensive unit production?

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    • No
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    • Tell me more!
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How to make RDP cause significant impact, but not [censored] off players.
(I formulated an idea years ago, but it was lost during BGE's not so happy times. So I bring it up again...)

The idea is deceptively simple:

When production is 100%, offensive units (Tanks, Bombers, DD's, LMG, other?) comprise at least 66% of production.

As the factory's are bombed the production shifts to defensive units (ATG, AAA, SPAA, Fighters/attackers, FMB, rifle, snipers, cheap SMG, trucks, light tanks), until offensive is at least 33% of total production (instead of 6 units per period, then 3).  There will also be a small increase (10%?) in overall production, reflection of the population being involved in production due to fear of losing.

What happens is side with factory damaged will have abundant supply of "cheap" units that will make it harder for the attacker to win by attrition.  Yes, some top units may be in short supply, but others will be plenty, like top-rank fighters!  This is a far-far better plan than reducing supply of all units (which is actually not historic)

This is almost entirely tables, should be easy to program in.

Should CRS try it?

I made a suggestion for reducing fight time of bombers after they drop bombs, found here.

=================================

I read replies below, so comments:

I want everyone to be clear about my idea: 
This suggestion is something easily implemented in game.  I have played this game since beginning, was beta tester, and have good understanding of the game engine.  
I have experience the good and bad about RDP,  so am well aware of the risks.
The game needs a balance to make RDP truly worthwhile to make the air-game an active part, but not adversely impact the ground and sea.
We will not know if something works unless we try.

The points:
1. This scheme will not eliminate a supply, just change the production balance.  There will always be top-tier units in production, but less of it.
2. Movement timers affected, representing fuel shortage (new).  Would love to see terrain effect movement, but for now just apply across the board by a <10%.
3. AO delay. Another addition. Again reflecting supply shortage, the time for AO to go up +x%.   Again to encourage calls for factory defense.
4. Auto-HQ announcement calling for defending of factories.
5. Rewards for factory defense (this will need more coding than others)
6. Reduce bomber default resupply and/or numbers (yes, supply needs to be preserved)

Strongly consider
RTB or KIA for Score+RDP to apply.  I completely agree something is needed to prevent players from quitting after drop.
He 111Z-3 heavy bomber.  Proposed variant of the Z-1, it would carry 16x 250kg bombs (or even 4x 1800kg bombs if game creates)

Possible:
The game allows for each town to report EA.  Currently off, it could be turned on and help better track formations ** (see below)
Reserve Fighters, a small number of fighters at each AF close to factory (like Garrisons)

He 111 vs DB-7:
He 111 carries 2x the bomb load as the DB-7.  There is, on balance, no real difference.
The difference is the DB-7 flies much faster than the 111, the speed compensates for smaller load.
Also, on average, all the Axis factories are closer to the front at game start than Allied
(At minimum distance wise both will fly about the same distance to nearest target factory, but Koln/Düsseldorf/Essen factories are grouped close, 8 of 9 Axis factories almost same flight time.)
Faster DB not only compensates for load by speed, but also much harder for defending fighters to catch.

 

 

** The game always had the ability to mark enemy aircraft on map, as done with ground forces.  The issue was bombers flew over area that had no towns, avoiding EWS.  The map wide yellow/red squares was made to prevent this, but the squares cover a large area and has a delay before updating.

Edited by frantish
additions
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I kinda like this, in lieu of a more detailed system with various levels of bombing objectives

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18 hours ago, merlin51 said:

I kinda like this, in lieu of a more detailed system with various levels of bombing objectives

There is always opportunity to expand on the system, but anything that can be quickly implemented in the interim is well worth it.

 

I see some are wanting to see more about idea, will expand on idea in a few days.

Edited by frantish

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would like to eventually get it back the direction it was going originally, where you have localized things at towns
to hit to lower the raw materials and stores of things
Hit bridges for localized slow down of the movement of things
Hit rail yards for a similar effect
hit factories for the decreased production of the factory types output
Oil refineries, lower fuel load outs
Chemical plants maybe tied into ammo
Vehicle factories, loss of production causing gaps to be filled by lesser units.
Hit various small facilities in towns to lessen their contribution of raw materials to cause production slow down.

Then eventually get the visual AI up and going to go with that.
Trains carrying loads of cargo
trucks even wagons maybe going from depot to depot
freight ships running supply convoys

 

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I like the idea, i would love to see it implemented if it works, but one has to keep in mind the limitations of the game as it presents itself right now. I don't see the current game in a state that supports real strategic bombing campaigns and air defense on the other side. Main reason for that is the low player numbers in some timezones and the reaction time for the defending side. As I allready wrote in a nother thread: I think it's allmost impossible to implement a larger scale RDP system without breaking the campaign gameplay because it can be exploited way to easy. Some reasons:

1. Low player numbers, small map scale: You can find times where allmost no pilots are logged in. Group up with some bombers, fly the short distances we got in this game, bomb the target - the enemy has only minutes to react and noone will stop you. Add to this the increased amount of possible targets (as proposed) and the divided resistance becomes even smaller.

2. High Equipment numbers: You won't run out of bombers. Never. You can waste a lot of them. Just take them onto suicide missions. It doesn't matter. There is no penalty to your war effort for that.

3. Bad EWS: "Radar" is really bugged in this game and there is no radar observer that will lead you to bombers flying deep in your own territory. There are not patrol missions or ground observers that tell you the direction and altitude of a spotted enemy. It's rather easy to escape fighters, especially in early tiers, especially with a A20, especially if the enemy doesn't know which of the (then many) targets you are up for.

4. We got no strategic bombers except the very early 111. We ain't got the bombers nor the population to fly in big payloads. So you have to modell strategic bombing in a way that dropping 1 ton of bombs onto one factory will make an impact. And that's increasing all of the above problems with exploitation. Either bombing a factory with the payload of a DB7 will have allmost no impact on RDP, then nobody will waste his time on rdp raids  - or bombing a factory with the payload of a single DB7 will have an impact on RDP and you will see a lot of exploitation because it's really easy to fly a DB7 to the Ruhr in most timezones.

Edited by vanapo

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All for RDP bombing/shelling in game.

That being said, until the severely slanted 2 to 1 allied advantage is rectified, there is no way we can increase RDP impact on game.

It will have a disastrous effect on the axis side.

Fix that, and I'd say open the doors to allow multiple ways to damage RDP to oblivion.

 

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Regarding point 2: We just had a lot of allied pilots flying their DB7s right into the factory flak. There was a 2k cloud layer, so they went on suicide missions. Well it's not like they will suffer from heavy bomber losses in any form. They have 30 for every active pilot to spend them this way.

Seeing DB7s diving through the clouds at Mach 1 right into the factory and it's flak is exactly the exploit i was talking about. As long as this happens, you got the reason why nobody on the axis side wants to see more impact from RDP runs.

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The problem with this idea, as presented, is that it encourages a permanent state. The more damaged the factories for one side gets, the less able they are to fix their situation. They are less able to bomb because they have less bombers. They have fighters, but so do the opposition, and bombing on RDP can easily evade fighter screens with how huge the AWS grids are.

 

The other problem is that this completely destroys balance. If things are balanced such that x of this roughly equates to y of that on the other side, and you start really messing with those numbers, things get really bad. Light tanks have an awful time killing anything heavier, so you'd have to rely on ATGs, but those are easily killed by HE, MG, or just plain infantry. This would result in severe morale hits. The game becomes less "capture the towns" and more "be the first one to bomb factories". Without an effective counterplay mechanic, or a compensation mechanic, this would negatively impact the game in very sgnificant ways.

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Well, because it is a game and not real life, there does need to be a "max effect" that one can cause
to keep a given aspect capped at, have to find that balancing point between making it challenging, and making it unplayable.
Real life you go for unplayable, but then you really want the other guy to just roll over and surrender quick, but thats no fun in a game.

It really needs to be a full scale system, because in that only partial effect if obtained by hitting the factories, and towns hold their importance 
as generators and movers of resources.

Hahaha i bombed all your factories!

Really? Darn, well we just blew most of your fuel storage facilities, and now you cant make the flight to reach my rear factories because you havent the fuel loadout so they are happily repairing, and we capped town ABC which is a huge resource generator, so thanks for the RP boost, it will speed up repairs.

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My feelings are we need more factories and they specialize in lets say tanks or inf ammo.  So, if you take down that specific item factory, it should hurt in that area. If it was inf ammo, then the units spawning would have a lesser load out.

Now, the opposing force does not know which factory does what. Spread the factories out more.

To find out what is what you need to do some scouting. Like flying over a town for say 5 minutes to gain intel.

When the map starts anew, the factories (randomize) as to what they produce for that campaign. This will add a little variety to the game.

And maybe the location randomizes to, in certain areas. Obviously it has to be in the rear area.

When a factory is damaged, it should take longer to heal by itself.  But if you have engies using repair kits, it will heal faster. This adds another aspect to the game.

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37 minutes ago, imded said:

My feelings are we need more factories and they specialize in lets say tanks or inf ammo.  So, if you take down that specific item factory, it should hurt in that area. If it was inf ammo, then the units spawning would have a lesser load out.

Now, the opposing force does not know which factory does what. Spread the factories out more.

To find out what is what you need to do some scouting. Like flying over a town for say 5 minutes to gain intel.

When the map starts anew, the factories (randomize) as to what they produce for that campaign. This will add a little variety to the game.

And maybe the location randomizes to, in certain areas. Obviously it has to be in the rear area.

When a factory is damaged, it should take longer to heal by itself.  But if you have engies using repair kits, it will heal faster. This adds another aspect to the game.

I really like this idea, but I still think there needs to be more counterplay before it's viable.

I was defending Koln last night with a SPAA against a single Havoc that flew up from Mendig and then flew a circuit between Koln and Kerpen. I was able to score a couple kill credits on his Havoc, but I was not able to prevent him from bombing the factory to 100%. He could approach super high speed, and unless I was very good or very lucky, he would survive without me or the AA AI hitting him, drop bombs and evade to circuit to Kerpen. Even if I hit him on his approach, if it wasn't soon enough, or hard enough, he could still bomb the factories from high alt at high speeds. I hit him twice on two different approaches, but my other hits were during or after he broke away after he dropped bombs, and he only broke away without bombs on one of the approaches I hit him with.

I like to think I'm one of the better AAA players for Axis.

So, defending factories with AAA is not really viable at this time, and it's relatively easy to evade fighter screens. Even if the fighter circles the factory, it's possible to evade and drop bombs, even if you die shortly thereafter.

So I think there needs to be a little bit more possibility to counter enemy bombing runs, or else we just have bombers bombing and engineers repairing 24/7, and I don't think that counts as active, exciting gameplay. Not all gameplay has to be active or exciting, but it's a heck of a lot more marketable, and there's a not-insignificant amount of vets that aren't thrilled with even the passivity of guarding.

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On 15.6.2018 at 7:31 PM, chaoswzkd said:

So, defending factories with AAA is not really viable at this time, and it's relatively easy to evade fighter screens. Even if the fighter circles the factory, it's possible to evade and drop bombs, even if you die shortly thereafter.

That's what I said too. You can't put more emphasis on RDP bombing because bombing itself is totally off right now. It's hard to counter bombing raids, it's allmost impossible if the bomber pilot knows what he's doing and there is no penalty whatsoever for lost bombers because every side has hundreds of them respawning every 12 hours.

Imho RDP damage should only be taken into account if the causing plane manages to RTB afterwards. I would bet, 90% of RDP runs are complete suicide missions and that's just soooo gamey. If a bomber would have to hit the target and make it back home in order to  perform a succesfull mission, than it would be a totally different RDP game. Right now, what axis witness are continuous MXY-7 Ohkas diving onto their factories as soon as allies get in short range of the Ruhr.

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While I understand your frustrations at how gamey it is, I think requiring an RTB is too much. I fully agree that the intentional suicide mission bombing runs are a problem, though.

 

I think there needs to be a separate mechanism in place that only rewards continuous bombardment, which would be exceptionally difficult if pilots are just running suicide missions, as they'd run out of supply very quickly. Something like bombs doing slightly less factory damage, giving the factories much faster repair timers, but delaying those timers by x minutes or hours (to a cap) every time it receives damage.

Edited by chaoswzkd
Fixed weird internal double post

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*** if pilots are just running suicide missions, as they'd run out of supply very quickly

Hmm, don't think so.  You ever go count how many *hundreds* of bombers each side gets?

 

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46 minutes ago, delems said:

*** if pilots are just running suicide missions, as they'd run out of supply very quickly

Hmm, don't think so.  You ever go count how many *hundreds* of bombers each side gets?

 

Was thinking ahead in terms of 1.36, with reduced flags, and reduced supply in those flags, so bombers would be mostly coming out of towns. They'd quickly drain nearby supply, and have to come from further and further away. Doable, but very frustrating.

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4 hours ago, chaoswzkd said:

Was thinking ahead in terms of 1.36, with reduced flags, and reduced supply in those flags, so bombers would be mostly coming out of towns. They'd quickly drain nearby supply, and have to come from further and further away. Doable, but very frustrating.

Really looking forward to this. The good best part about the current situation: a lot of things are in the work right now. So let's see what the future brings. Probably some impact of attrition.

Again: I will be the first guy complaining about no bombers left for CAS because some idiot drove all of them into the salty waters of the channel.

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Eh, I think there should just be less automatics in each brigade and RDP repair time should be increased (was just recently changed to 48 hours, that's  start. ) to 60 hours.

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1 hour ago, stump said:

Eh, I think there should just be less automatics in each brigade and RDP repair time should be increased (was just recently changed to 48 hours, that's  start. ) to 60 hours.

Next campaign supply is being reduced across the board. Add this to the nearly double increase in factory rebuild.time, this will hopefully increase value of RDP. As you could effectively double the supply timers over a 2 day period.

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 I added a lot of comments to my OP, below line.

4 hours ago, BLKHWK8 said:

Next campaign supply is being reduced across the board. Add this to the nearly double increase in factory rebuild.time, this will hopefully increase value of RDP. As you could effectively double the supply timers over a 2 day period.

How much will 100% factory shutdown effect resupply?

 

 

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On 6/10/2018 at 1:29 AM, frantish said:

I want everyone to be clear about my idea: 
This suggestion is something easily implemented in game.  I have played this game since beginning, was beta tester, and have good understanding of the game engine.  

As someone who is actually working directly with the code surrounding supply... what? Or maybe you just have a very different definition of "easily".

Dynamic supply lists are something the db just isn't set up for. Well, correction: they're super doable, if we want 0 way to tell anything is wrong and no easy way to fix anything that does go wrong. A lot of effort would need to be put into changing how supply works, and additional effort would need to be put into making game management tools that could be used to... well, manage the game.

 

You mentioned you played the game from the beginning and was a beta tester. In that case, you might be referring to old supply, which was ripped out to fit TOES in. So what you might have been familiar with no longer truly applies. Alternatively, if you have more familiarity with the current game engine and supply... maybe send a volunteer application in to CRS?

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5 hours ago, BLKHWK8 said:

Next campaign supply is being reduced across the board. Add this to the nearly double increase in factory rebuild.time, this will hopefully increase value of RDP. As you could effectively double the supply timers over a 2 day period.

Thank you for the timer adjustment.  Appreciate it.  S!

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57 minutes ago, chaoswzkd said:

As someone who is actually working directly with the code surrounding supply... what? Or maybe you just have a very different definition of "easily".

Dynamic supply lists are something the db just isn't set up for. Well, correction: they're super doable, if we want 0 way to tell anything is wrong and no easy way to fix anything that does go wrong. A lot of effort would need to be put into changing how supply works, and additional effort would need to be put into making game management tools that could be used to... well, manage the game.

 

You mentioned you played the game from the beginning and was a beta tester. In that case, you might be referring to old supply, which was ripped out to fit TOES in. So what you might have been familiar with no longer truly applies. Alternatively, if you have more familiarity with the current game engine and supply... maybe send a volunteer application in to CRS?

Working with CRS in past and knowing programming myself I gained some understanding of how parts of the game works.

Sure things changed, but parts still apply. 

Regardless, as long as changes are to the base system, the chances of a working alteration is more successful.

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*** How much will 100% factory shutdown effect resupply?

Doubles the time it takes for a unit to reappear.

Currently, if your rifleman dies, he returns in 15 hours;  if factories were 100% destroyed, he would return in 30 hours.

 

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