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Ordnance arming timers should be compensated for

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“From February 1943, the appearance of German armored fighting vehicles began to change dramatically as the overall panzer gray paint scheme was superseded by a dark yellow base color. New and rebuild vehicles left the factory in this plain base color, but were issued to the units with tins of drab olive green and red brown paints. These were fuel and water soluble paints in paste form which were supplied in 2 kg and 20 kg tins together with spray guns.   It was recommended that the paints and should be diluted with fuel and sprayed over the dark yellow in disruptive camouflage patterns. No official camouflage patterns were issued as it was intended that unit commander‘s would devise their own to suit the local train. Wilst this was excellent in theory, the reality was often far less satisfactory. Crews tended to ditch the spraygun and sometimes the paint to make room for stowing more essential items. It was also common for water to be used as a paint thinner instead of fuel, which was often in short supply. These factors resulted in wild variations in the appearance of vehicles.   Some might simply be daubed thickly with mud to cover the dark yellow, wilst others had the undiluted paint smeared on with brushes and rags, producing very dark disruptive patterns. In contrast, some crews over did the thinning, leading to a very pale finish was had little practical value. Increasingly affective allied air attacks during 1943 and 1944 lead to unit commanders enforcing higher standards of camouflage painting, although pattern still very greatly from vehicle to vehicle. From D-Day onwards, incessant fighter bomber strikes and virtually anything that moves in daylight prompted crews to festoon their vehicles with freshly cut foliage in additional camouflage.”

From ‘ First SS Panzer Corps at Villers-Bocage 13 June 1944’ by David Porter.

Edited by GrAnit

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If Sherman's are so hard to see explain why they get 1 shotted at 2000m plus.

must admit though the p4 looks a bit too bright.

Edited by goreblimey

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1 hour ago, redst0rm said:
  1. which lead us to this game we play where one side has a super tank that was nick named after a lighter in real life cause of its tendency to flame up when hit and it can blend into an af in this game. is that JUST a bush? or is it a tank you dont know untill it fires meanwhile over a a k away that Tiger/4g/stug/stu is blown to bits front armour on AND you can see it from anywhere on the ground and apparently anywhere in the air with ease.

we call this balance--we wouldnt want anyone to accuse us of being neo [censored] now w0uld we?

 

Looking at the Tigers Stats, I would hardly say it has a glass jaw.  

 

Other Weapon   Kills Deaths K/D
A13 Cruiser Mk II   5   5
American A15 Crusader AA Mk I (SPAA) 7   7
American M10 Wolverine 233 178 1.31
American M1A3 (57 mm) 170 58 2.93
American M3A3 Stuart 118 2 59
American M4A2 Sherman 320 52 6.15
American M4A3 Sherman 76  383 300 1.28
British A15 Crusader AA Mk I (SPAA) 4   4
British Vickers Mk IVB 6   6
British Vickers Mk IVC 7   7
Char B1 Bis   8   8
Churchill Mk III   40 6 6.67
Churchill Mk V CS   12 1 12
Churchill Mk VII   58 41 1.41
Crusader Mk II   10   10
Crusader Mk II CS   3   3
Crusader Mk III   38 20 1.9
Crusader Mk III CS   7   7
Daimler Mk I   13   13
French M10 Wolverine 56 42 1.33
French M1A3 (57 mm) 43 13 3.31
French M3A3 Stuart   18 1 18
French M4A2 Sherman 78 22 3.55
French M4A3 Sherman 76 90 74 1.22
French M5A2 (76.2 mm) 26 21 1.24
Matilda Mk II   11   11
Matilda Mk II CS   2   2
Mle 322-15 (P-38F)   1   1
Panhard AMD 178   28   28
Renault R-35   5   5
Somua S-35   2   2

 

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40 minutes ago, redst0rm said:
  1. which lead us to this game we play where one side has a super tank that was nick named after a lighter in real life cause of its tendency to flame up when hit and it can blend into an af in this game. is that JUST a bush? or is it a tank you dont know untill it fires meanwhile over a a k away that Tiger/4g/stug/stu is blown to bits front armour on AND you can see it from anywhere on the ground and apparently anywhere in the air with ease.

we call this balance--we wouldnt want anyone to accuse us of being neo [censored] now w0uld we?

 

*ahem*

From what research people have put together, it seems like this is a complete fabrication that got wildly popular post-war. So popular that you hear it everywhere, and everyone accepts as fact. Either that they are Ronsons or Zippos. Buuuuutttt....
https://www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/comments/38gqva/m4_sherman_common_myths/
http://tanksandafv.blogspot.com/2014/04/the-m4-sherman-ronson-lights-first.html
https://www.quora.com/Why-were-M4-Sherman-tanks-nicknamed-‘Ronsons’-The-famed-lights-up-every-time-slogan-wasn’t-adopted-until-after-the-war

Now, the likely origin of the term "Ronson" and "Zippo" applied to the M4 Shermans by actual troops on the ground? The Flame Tank version of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronson_flamethrower

It is well-known that early Sherman models did in fact have issues, and it is documented that due to those issues ammo stowage was moved to wet stowage and away from the front of the tank. Aside from that, there is a dearth of credible documentation of any actual soldier claiming it by the nickname.


 

9 minutes ago, B2K said:

Looking at the Tigers Stats, I would hardly say it has a glass jaw.  

 

Other Weapon   Kills Deaths K/D
A13 Cruiser Mk II   5   5
American A15 Crusader AA Mk I (SPAA) 7   7
American M10 Wolverine 233 178 1.31
American M1A3 (57 mm) 170 58 2.93
American M3A3 Stuart 118 2 59
American M4A2 Sherman 320 52 6.15
American M4A3 Sherman 76  383 300 1.28
British A15 Crusader AA Mk I (SPAA) 4   4
British Vickers Mk IVB 6   6
British Vickers Mk IVC 7   7
Char B1 Bis   8   8
Churchill Mk III   40 6 6.67
Churchill Mk V CS   12 1 12
Churchill Mk VII   58 41 1.41
Crusader Mk II   10   10
Crusader Mk II CS   3   3
Crusader Mk III   38 20 1.9
Crusader Mk III CS   7   7
Daimler Mk I   13   13
French M10 Wolverine 56 42 1.33
French M1A3 (57 mm) 43 13 3.31
French M3A3 Stuart   18 1 18
French M4A2 Sherman 78 22 3.55
French M4A3 Sherman 76 90 74 1.22
French M5A2 (76.2 mm) 26 21 1.24
Matilda Mk II   11   11
Matilda Mk II CS   2   2
Mle 322-15 (P-38F)   1   1
Panhard AMD 178   28   28
Renault R-35   5   5
Somua S-35   2   2

This kinda displays the issue people complain about @B2K. 57mm ATG kills it. Stuart has scored kills. 75mm lower-velocity gun kills hit. Church Mk3 kills it with 57mm. That seems a bit suspect to people who think the Tiger is extremely powerful.
 

As I've noted in http://forums.wwiionline.com/forums/topic/414137-allied-vs-axis-armor-kd-analysis/ the Tiger is pretty monstrous, but all the Axis have that's actually worth a damn is the StuG III G and the Tiger. The Pz IV G just does not stand up to its competition. That's backed up by current campaign stats as well, as it has a pretty terrible K/D against both the M4A2 75mm and the Crusader III, which are meant to be its direct competition.

As an Axis player, I'd agree that the Tiger needs some balancing, maybe less supply than the 76mm or something, but we need more options to fight Allied tanks than just the Tiger and the StuG III G before that seems appropriate.

 

 

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There's less awareness among the game community than there should be that, in the real world, tankers that want to stay live always shoot first.

Tankers who count on armor to keep them alive, end up dead.

Unless of course you always operate in locations where the enemy is never on either of your flanks.

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30 minutes ago, jwilly said:

There's less awareness among the game community than there should be that, in the real world, tankers that want to stay live always shoot first.

Tankers who count on armor to keep them alive, end up dead.

Unless of course you always operate in locations where the enemy is never on either of your flanks.

COMBINED TEAMWORK AND TACTICS

One thing I try to get is a AAA ATG and Tank with 2 Infantry as spotters and covering flank. 

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9 hours ago, chaoswzkd said:

*ahem*

From what research people have put together, it seems like this is a complete fabrication that got wildly popular post-war. So popular that you hear it everywhere, and everyone accepts as fact. Either that they are Ronsons or Zippos. Buuuuutttt....
https://www.reddit.com/r/badhistory/comments/38gqva/m4_sherman_common_myths/
http://tanksandafv.blogspot.com/2014/04/the-m4-sherman-ronson-lights-first.html
https://www.quora.com/Why-were-M4-Sherman-tanks-nicknamed-‘Ronsons’-The-famed-lights-up-every-time-slogan-wasn’t-adopted-until-after-the-war

Now, the likely origin of the term "Ronson" and "Zippo" applied to the M4 Shermans by actual troops on the ground? The Flame Tank version of this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ronson_flamethrower

It is well-known that early Sherman models did in fact have issues, and it is documented that due to those issues ammo stowage was moved to wet stowage and away from the front of the tank. Aside from that, there is a dearth of credible documentation of any actual soldier claiming it by the nickname.


 

This kinda displays the issue people complain about @B2K. 57mm ATG kills it. Stuart has scored kills. 75mm lower-velocity gun kills hit. Church Mk3 kills it with 57mm. That seems a bit suspect to people who think the Tiger is extremely powerful.
 

As I've noted in http://forums.wwiionline.com/forums/topic/414137-allied-vs-axis-armor-kd-analysis/ the Tiger is pretty monstrous, but all the Axis have that's actually worth a damn is the StuG III G and the Tiger. The Pz IV G just does not stand up to its competition. That's backed up by current campaign stats as well, as it has a pretty terrible K/D against both the M4A2 75mm and the Crusader III, which are meant to be its direct competition.

As an Axis player, I'd agree that the Tiger needs some balancing, maybe less supply than the 76mm or something, but we need more options to fight Allied tanks than just the Tiger and the StuG III G before that seems appropriate.

 

 

Skip to 33:30 for info on the sherman myth, but people like redstorm should watch the entire thing...

 

 

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50 minutes ago, redst0rm said:

 People like Redstorm own an encyclopedia on tanks because yes, they made one.  

Which totally explains why you regurgitate History channel nonsense like the 'ronson' Sherman myth. 

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Guys, you are all posting on the wrong thread. Anyways:

faction

 

 

K/d

United Kingdom

Heavy Tank

5.37

France

Heavy Tank

3.26

Germany

Heavy Tank

4.27

 

faction

 

 

K/D

United Kingdom

Medium Tank

3.19

United States

Medium Tank

3.38

France

Medium Tank

3.37

Germany

Medium Tank

2.56

 

faction

 

 

K/D

United Kingdom

Light Tank

3.39

United States

Light Tank

3

France

Light Tank

3.27

Germany

Light Tank

2.44

 

Edit: Oh, I forgot the ATG

Faction

 

K/D

United Kingdom

Anti-Tank Gun

0.86

United States

Anti-Tank Gun

0.61

France

Anti-Tank Gun

0.65

Germany

Anti-Tank Gun

0.55

 

Do I have to say anything more? Yes. Stop complaining if you drive allied tanks. You got the better performing equipment. And yes, everything chaoswzkd said above nailes it.

Edited by vanapo

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16 hours ago, redst0rm said:

lol yes but these guys are acting like the paper thin 4g is also so dominant it deserves to be seen from 800 thousand miles away and thats just huge LOLS like the kind of lols that is undignified for a person to suffer through. 

Well the 4G is harder to spot than it was. The color has gone through 3 color adoptions and one complete revisit (IIRC) to its pattern from the original.  The current brown earth color does work well in some circumstances.. the color is not a "historic" color in terms of off the factory floor that I know of.,. (?)  The brown color is a historic color.    The 4G/Sherman match up has always been probably the most balanced match up this game has ever seen in H2H combat outside any infantry weapons.  The bottom line is that I don't think the Axis will ever be satisfied without a primary green camo.. the question is does it upset the balance?  

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My guess is that with the advent of HE tank shells as a key gameplay element because of (once they perform realistically) those shells' extreme lethality toward infantry, and the greater lethality of Sherman 75 HE compared to German L/42, 46, 48 HE, balance will shift somewhat toward the Allied side. 

When that occurs, a good counterbalance for it would be to change the game-world textures to a more realistically complex color-pallette so that realistic US tank colors would have the same visual prominence as realistic-for-Europe German tank colors.

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Axis keep saying their tanks are easier to kill. I've NEVER had that experience. But, I'm not a tanker.

I'm not a tanker, because I lose... most of the time and get tired of that. 

So, obviously I've been doing it wrong for 14 years. 

Assuming I come back next campaign... Can someone please post a visual representation of where the best spot to shoot each Axis tank ... is

Obviously, it's always best to aim for the sapper spot? But you don't usually have the 90 degree opportunity. 

I've recently read that it's better to shoot some in the turret and some in the lower part and some where the two parts meet. 

But where EXACTLY should I be hitting EACH PZ depending on angle? Because obviously, I'm doing it wrong... since PZ's are sooooo easy to kill. 

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12 minutes ago, jwilly said:

My guess is that with the advent of HE tank shells as a key gameplay element because of (once they perform realistically) those shells' extreme lethality toward infantry, and the greater lethality of Sherman 75 HE compared to German L/42, 46, 48 HE, balance will shift somewhat toward the Allied side. 

When that occurs, a good counterbalance for it would be to change the game-world textures to a more realistically complex color-pallette so that realistic US tank colors would have the same visual prominence as realistic-for-Europe German tank colors.

I think the lack of game world texture and pallet is the primary issue... and by the looks of some of the SS from wing-2 is where that will be handled.   I think the lack of farm houses in neutral terrain and hay stacks/barns etc.. add to some of the problems.. IE noise in the terrain.

More to the OP.. vis limit for bombers should be upped.  I think mb bombs should have some sort of STO or similar added to it so we can effect ground targets beyond vis limits. 

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4 minutes ago, lipton said:

Axis keep saying their tanks are easier to kill. I've NEVER had that experience. But, I'm not a tanker.

I'm not a tanker, because I lose... most of the time and get tired of that. 

So, obviously I've been doing it wrong for 14 years. 

Assuming I come back next campaign... Can someone please post a visual representation of where the best spot to shoot each Axis tank ... is

Obviously, it's always best to aim for the sapper spot? But you don't usually have the 90 degree opportunity. 

I've recently read that it's better to shoot some in the turret and some in the lower part and some where the two parts meet. 

But where EXACTLY should I be hitting EACH PZ depending on angle? Because obviously, I'm doing it wrong... since PZ's are sooooo easy to kill. 

A visual representation would take a ton of time and lots of variables to compensate for like range and the gun you are using.

MB the ones you are having difficulty with is a  better way to start because knowing what you are facing and with what you have to face with it you can develop a scope in which you can tackle your target and adjust accordingly.

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On 6/26/2018 at 11:52 AM, stankyus said:

A visual representation would take a ton of time and lots of variables to compensate for like range and the gun you are using.

MB the ones you are having difficulty with is a  better way to start because knowing what you are facing and with what you have to face with it you can develop a scope in which you can tackle your target and adjust accordingly.

Yeah, I realized after posting, that everything is arbitrary... depending on weapon used and range. 

I guess I was hoping for something that says... "if you see a P4 facing you, aim for the ____." Type of answers. 

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19 hours ago, lipton said:

I guess I was hoping for something that says... "if you see a P4 facing you, aim for the ____." Type of answers. 

There is a popular f2p game where you can look at the armor thickness of each part on each tank we got in game and you can see the position of any crewmembers inside.  It is another game however and you can't compare things 1 on 1 but it surely helps to find some general weaker areas of that tank. This also applies to this game if you got the same general version of that tank in both games.

Some general rules:

1. Try to aim for flat parts that you can hit from a 90 degree angle. German tanks tend to have a lot of those, including vision slits which will give you a good chance to take out at least the driver.

2. Most german tanks have weak armor, you will be able to penetrate a lot of them at long distances. Even the up-armored tanks except the tiger or the pzIVG have only limited additional armor at some places. F.e. the upgunned panzer III gets additional armor on the hull, but not on the turret - which is a really weird design choice. Probably made to block the entrance of an eFMS........

3. Sapper spots are most likely on the side or back of the tank. If you happen to see the side or back of a german tank, even the tiger, pIVg or the stuG, you will be able to kill it wit ease. A lot of flat armor here and if it's not a tiger, it's rather weak too. Take the first shot to the rear to kill the engine/start a fire. Then shoot the middle until it blows up, I'd say.

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Pretty much what vanapo said. Aim for flat surfaces, most especially the turret cheeks where the Gunner, Loader, and Commander are. The gun mantlet will be extra thick, so be sure not to aim at that, but beside it on the turret. IIRC, the IV G has flat turret cheeks, meaning it's easy to kill the turret crew. By contrast, the Sherman has rounded turret cheeks, making them more effectively armored against incoming fire. Greater effective armor thickness and greater change to ricochet.

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On 6/26/2018 at 0:40 PM, lipton said:

Axis keep saying their tanks are easier to kill. I've NEVER had that experience. But, I'm not a tanker.

I'm not a tanker, because I lose... most of the time and get tired of that. 

So, obviously I've been doing it wrong for 14 years. 

Assuming I come back next campaign... Can someone please post a visual representation of where the best spot to shoot each Axis tank ... is

Obviously, it's always best to aim for the sapper spot? But you don't usually have the 90 degree opportunity. 

I've recently read that it's better to shoot some in the turret and some in the lower part and some where the two parts meet. 

But where EXACTLY should I be hitting EACH PZ depending on angle? Because obviously, I'm doing it wrong... since PZ's are sooooo easy to kill. 

https://wiki.wwiionline.com/view/Sapper_guide_for_Axis_and_Allied_tanks

Im sure the spots are the saME FOR TANKS

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When in doubt, try a side shot to the lower back hull.  This is usually a weak spot in most tanks and will most likely destroy the engine or more. If that shot is not available, go the 90 deg shot to the side of the hull or the driver slit.  The last desperate move is to aim for the main gun, but it is a low percentage shot, especially on smaller tanks.  Also, remember that tanks used are best in ambush or in an overpower situation.  He who shoots first usually wins.  And being hull down behind a berm or wall helps a bunch.

 

Edited by GrAnit

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21 hours ago, lipton said:

Yeah, I realized after posting, that everything is arbitrary... depending on weapon used and range. 

I guess I was hoping for something that says... "if you see a P4 facing you, aim for the ____." Type of answers. 

Ok.. then just a quick review. Frontally.

1400m or less S75 vrs P4G:  Frontal turret, facing you right side.  The 2pdr close in can also kill turret crew frontally. 76mm less than 1800m turret.

1200m or less 57mm/75mm vrs StugG - Right edge of the upper hull next to the driver slit.. same shot left side but less likely to kill the gunner. Its possible at 1200m but unlikely. That area has a small angled 50mm plate and the gunner sits far enough back to be hit by shrapnel.  800m or less upper hull to the LEFT side of the drivers slit between the slit and barrel.. should produce a direct hit on the gunner.

1400m or less with the 76/3" same as above to the Right of the driver slit. 1200m or less upper hull left side of drivers slit  between the slit and barrel - possible to kill it with a lower hull hit.

800m or less anywhere but best to the right side of the gun.

Tiger - 57mm/75mm 800m or less upper hull directly under the gun mantle.

76mm/3" same shot 1200m.. mb out to 1400m can produce spall. I have killed them at 1400m with the M10.. anything over 1500m good luck. Still 800-1k is the sweet spot range.

 

THE PZ3 Hull gun issue and how to tackle it.  The issue is that when you kill the driver or turret crew in the PZF or H the hull gun tends to be unkillable and the tank hard to explode or burn at that point. You will have this issue with pretty much any AT gun below the 75mm.. and even then sometimes the 75 is presented with this problem. Its a bane to the ATGs.. you get a technical kill but that hull gunner kills you in response and hangs out to kill more things.  THE most effective way to silence the hull gun (facing you) IS not to shoot at the hull or waist ammo but shoot the lowest portion of the frontal hull as close the inside of the tank treads. Not only can you kill the hull gunner and get the tank to despawn but you can sometimes actually explode the tank. Again its not a easy task as your time is limited and requires a precise shot but if you are lucky you can get away alive.

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6 hours ago, vanapo said:

There is a popular f2p game where you can look at the armor thickness of each part on each tank we got in game and you can see the position of any crewmembers inside.  It is another game however and you can't compare things 1 on 1 but it surely helps to find some general weaker areas of that tank. This also applies to this game if you got the same general version of that tank in both games.

Some general rules:

1. Try to aim for flat parts that you can hit from a 90 degree angle. German tanks tend to have a lot of those, including vision slits which will give you a good chance to take out at least the driver.

2. Most german tanks have weak armor, you will be able to penetrate a lot of them at long distances. Even the up-armored tanks except the tiger or the pzIVG have only limited additional armor at some places. F.e. the upgunned panzer III gets additional armor on the hull, but not on the turret - which is a really weird design choice. Probably made to block the entrance of an eFMS........

3. Sapper spots are most likely on the side or back of the tank. If you happen to see the side or back of a german tank, even the tiger, pIVg or the stuG, you will be able to kill it wit ease. A lot of flat armor here and if it's not a tiger, it's rather weak too. Take the first shot to the rear to kill the engine/start a fire. Then shoot the middle until it blows up, I'd say.

A lot of squads have training nights on the training server where they test weak spots and sapper points.

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