• Announcements

    • SNIPER62

      64-bit is LIVE   03/27/2020

      CHIMM: 64-bit client is now LIVE and Campaign 172 continues!  
stump

Ordnance arming timers should be compensated for

149 posts in this topic

Back on topic, I'm curious as to why this decision was made.

Were/are suicide bombers that prominent in this game? Surely it is a small percentage of an already small percentage of a relatively small player base which flies and suicides their planes. Is it really a simpler option to alter the already ineffective bombs further rather than police those few who practice this tactic? Have you considered players are likely suicide bombing target because of the ineffective bombs requiring direct hits for effect?

Generally curious here. This decision seems asinine at best, especially considering how lackluster the air experience already was.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 minutes ago, gt3076r said:

Back on topic, I'm curious as to why this decision was made.

Were/are suicide bombers that prominent in this game? Surely it is a small percentage of an already small percentage of a relatively small player base which flies and suicides their planes. Is it really a simpler option to alter the already ineffective bombs further rather than police those few who practice this tactic? Have you considered players are likely suicide bombing target because of the ineffective bombs requiring direct hits for effect?

Generally curious here. This decision seems asinine at best, especially considering how lackluster the air experience already was.

The suicide bombing was starting to get out of hand, especially with one individual who targeted Axis panzers, especially Tigers. In fact he destroyed so many Tigers this way he was awarded a medal by the Allies. I am assuming AHC did not know he was killing Tigers this way or he never would have gotten his medal. Suicide bombing against armour has occurred by both Allied and Axis pilots throughout the games history. This one player though was taking it to extremes however and it was a major topic of discussion on the forums this spring.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Suicide bombing was affecting both sides. The fix is also a historical influence one.

Yes we realize that this may not fit the way bombing was being done in game, so as all units that are corrected you have to relearn that piece of equipment.

Similar to the optic changes on tanks, or the turret traverse speed these changes effect how someone played that piece of equipment, war is about adapting, inprovising and overcoming.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, rpw1 said:

The suicide bombing was starting to get out of hand, especially with one individual who targeted Axis panzers, especially Tigers. In fact he destroyed so many Tigers this way he was awarded a medal by the Allies. I am assuming AHC did not know he was killing Tigers this way or he never would have gotten his medal. Suicide bombing against armour has occurred by both Allied and Axis pilots throughout the games history. This one player though was taking it to extremes however and it was a major topic of discussion on the forums this spring.

Certainly it might've been out of hand, but your account lends credit to my point of it being done regularly by a small amount of individuals, or in this case one individual, who should've been handled by the GM team.

7 minutes ago, BLKHWK8 said:

Suicide bombing was affecting both sides. The fix is also a historical influence one.

Of course it was, but was it really being done en masse? Is this not something the GM team could've handled rather than further neutering your air game? What do your GMs do, exactly?

Historical influence is great, but when applied to gameplay, the user-end result needs to be considered overall. (Hint: this is why 1944 Allied tanks are paired against 1942 German ones)

To go along with this change, how was the render limit increased for units, if at all?

How was bomb lethality increased, if at all? From what I see of the audit results spoken in here, it seems things are not much different than they were prior.

7 minutes ago, BLKHWK8 said:

Similar to the optic changes on tanks, or the turret traverse speed these changes effect how someone played that piece of equipment, war is about adapting, inprovising and overcoming.

Not at all similar, actually. I can only imagine some of the fires you have to put out in the Hangar about this, assuming the fractured air community even posts there anymore.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As I stated in other forums posts

The HE KE audit was a starting point. Now that we have the ballistics working as intended. The next step is auditing the damage models which is not a quick or easy task.

These changes are called development which has been producing results for the first time in years. It's a process and we are working to do it correctly, so we don't have to come back years from now and do it again.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, gt3076r said:

Back on topic, I'm curious as to why this decision was made.

Were/are suicide bombers that prominent in this game? Surely it is a small percentage of an already small percentage of a relatively small player base which flies and suicides their planes. Is it really a simpler option to alter the already ineffective bombs further rather than police those few who practice this tactic? Have you considered players are likely suicide bombing target because of the ineffective bombs requiring direct hits for effect?

Generally curious here. This decision seems asinine at best, especially considering how lackluster the air experience already was.

 

Suicide bombing was relatively uncommon, but not necessarily rare. The big thing to understand is that the players that did it did it out of convenience. Most players did not go on active, consistent campaigns of suicide bombing runs to trade 1 plane in plentiful supply in plentiful flags for 1 piece of armor in much more limited supply in much more limited flags.

The players that did run the constant campaigns were punished by GMs thanks to .reports. but the GM team doesn't get a .report and just believe it straight-up. It has to be investigated. Even if the same name pops up relatively frequently, that doesn't mean actual guilt.

So the casual suicide bombing that's happened historically has never been truly curbed.

Now it has.

 

Bombs are meant to be as historical as possible. They aren't going to be "altered to be more ineffectual", because that would mean making them non-historical.

If players were suiciding because their bombs were ineffectual, that's ridiculous, because if they were truly ineffectual then suiciding wouldn't change the fact that the bombs don't work in the first place. They did, and they do (for the most part), so players were suiciding to compensate for their inability to aim their bombs. Nothing more.

 

One thing that people in general continue not to realize is that bombing from the altitudes people have been in the game is unrealistic, and directly ahistorical as it goes against pretty much every country's bombing doctrine from the era.

The bombs we sling around in the game, other than perhaps the small ones the Stuka has on its wings, are powerful enough that, IRL, a bomber would be jostled in the air from the explosive force. That would have caused all kinds of problems, like rapidly losing altitude, losing control of the plane, etc. If the plane was too close, it'd have to worry about frags, too.

So not only did this fix prevent suicide bombing, but it also made the bombing gameplay closer to actual history. This is a historical war simulation game, so that's the point. People have this persistent image of Hollywood shots and propaganda reels as to how CAS bombing worked, but go ahead and actually do the research into bombing doctrines, effects of bombing too close to the ground, etc.

 

As for the actual power of the bombs, those are meant to be historical to what the engine can render. Next comes concussion damage fixes, damage model audits, etc. etc.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, BLKHWK8 said:

As I stated in other forums posts

The HE KE audit was a starting point. Now that we have the ballistics working as intended. The next step is auditing the damage models which is not a quick or easy task.

These changes are called development which has been producing results for the first time in years. It's a process and we are working to do it correctly, so we don't have to come back years from now and do it again.

So the audit was a starting point which after it's implementation has shown that bombs are still largely ineffective on most armor, and yet you choose to prematurely introduce an aircraft change which should've been paired with actually effective bombs. Does your team consider this productive development?

14 minutes ago, chaoswzkd said:

The players that did run the constant campaigns were punished by GMs thanks to .reports. but the GM team doesn't get a .report and just believe it straight-up. It has to be investigated. Even if the same name pops up relatively frequently, that doesn't mean actual guilt

Even the basic tools at hand available to regular players give enough data to track individuals and their behaviors. To imply it was too difficult to track suicide bombers and handle them accordingly is inexcusable.

9 minutes ago, chaoswzkd said:

If players were suiciding because their bombs were ineffectual, that's ridiculous, because if they were truly ineffectual then suiciding wouldn't change the fact that the bombs don't work in the first place. They did, and they do (for the most part), so players were suiciding to compensate for their inability to aim their bombs. Nothing more.

Sure the bombs work, takes a direct hit on just about anything tougher than an armored car, but they work. Prior to this change, bombing an armored target, killing it, and not killing yourself in the process was hitting a quarter on a dartboard. You've effectively now made it a dime. 

Suicide bombing isn't unique to this game, happens in other combined arms games too. They just don't neuter a game mechanic because of the actions of a few knuckleheads.

9 minutes ago, chaoswzkd said:

One thing that people in general continue not to realize is that bombing from the altitudes people have been in the game is unrealistic, and directly ahistorical as it goes against pretty much every country's bombing doctrine from the era.

People bomb from unrealistic altitudes because of a number of things. Actual game detail, render limits, graphics giving a player the ability to see their target, actual bomb strength vs. targets, being a few reasons here. Justifying the change by simple pointing your finger and declaring "it's historical!" does not apply here.

Tell me, of the players you see reporting they are unhappy with the change, how many names are also on your list of players who suicide bomb? I'm willing to bet very few.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Bombs should be realistic, if you have people suicide bombing maybe it's because it's so damn hard to get a kill without dropping last second? If you want to discourage suicide bombing, add a higher respawn timer for it.

Don't artificially protect armor, armor already runs the show in this game, they need a counter-balance.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes. I mean, the first sentence of the OP of this thread really sums it all up. I try to have faith in the game and CRS but Jesus Christ on rollerblades its [censored] hard sometimes.

Happy Friday

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, knucks said:

Bombs should be realistic, if you have people suicide bombing maybe it's because it's so damn hard to get a kill without dropping last second?

I'm not sure if you're intentionally being counter-intuitive? You want bombs to be realistic but also not realistic?

 

42 minutes ago, gt3076r said:

So the audit was a starting point which after it's implementation has shown that bombs are still largely ineffective on most armor, and yet you choose to prematurely introduce an aircraft change which should've been paired with actually effective bombs. Does your team consider this productive development?

You seem to be under the impression that bombs have ever been particularly effective against armor. They're not. Historically, realistically, bombs are not effective on armor unless you score direct hits. So I'd imagine making the bombs behave closer to reality is productive development for a historical war simulator.

44 minutes ago, gt3076r said:

Even the basic tools at hand available to regular players give enough data to track individuals and their behaviors. To imply it was too difficult to track suicide bombers and handle them accordingly is inexcusable.

We have basic tools at hand to show that a player intentionally committed suicide? And we don't know, for example, that they weren't just being shot down and dropped when they were close because they were dead anyway, or made a mistake, or etc. etc.? I'd love to know what tools those are, because I can't think of any other than trying to divine like 20 separate things from just the death timers in CS&R. It's like trying to find a motive and a murder weapon from just the time of death.

46 minutes ago, gt3076r said:

Sure the bombs work, takes a direct hit on just about anything tougher than an armored car, but they work. Prior to this change, bombing an armored target, killing it, and not killing yourself in the process was hitting a quarter on a dartboard. You've effectively now made it a dime.

Bombs could destroy armor without direct hits. Now they pretty much can't. That's a positive change for realism. Once some additional things are in, like better concussion for the bombs, we'll probably see bombs require less than a direct hit again. It'll probably never go back to the silliness that it was before, though.

47 minutes ago, gt3076r said:

Suicide bombing isn't unique to this game, happens in other combined arms games too. They just don't neuter a game mechanic because of the actions of a few knuckleheads.

Other games don't typically require multiple minutes to move from spawn to the action. They are instant action, typically with near-infinite or at least non-restrictive supply. A suicide bomb in those games are going to set back their opponent seconds, not minutes of travel time and hours of resupply time.

49 minutes ago, gt3076r said:

People bomb from unrealistic altitudes because of a number of things. Actual game detail, render limits, graphics giving a player the ability to see their target, actual bomb strength vs. targets, being a few reasons here. Justifying the change by simple pointing your finger and declaring "it's historical!" does not apply here.

"It's historical" 100% applies here. The alternative is we make it slightly more historical but still ahistorical, move on to something else and make that slightly more historical, etc., then come back and do it all over again. Slightly pushing it forward. That's pretty ridiculous to seriously request a developer to do when they can just do it right the first time and move on to the next thing.

51 minutes ago, gt3076r said:

Tell me, of the players you see reporting they are unhappy with the change, how many names are also on your list of players who suicide bomb? I'm willing to bet very few.

/shrug I don't know all of the fliers, but I'd bet serious money most of them have done it at least once, whether out of frustration or revenge or just because they thought it would be fun. Hell, I've done it before, but that was more a matter of incompetence bombing too low to the ground and not being able to pull up than actually wanting to suicide bomb the enemy. Drawbacks of a dive bomber being piloted by a noob.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/29/2018 at 3:13 PM, BLKHWK8 said:

Suicide bombing was affecting both sides. The fix is also a historical influence one.

Yes we realize that this may not fit the way bombing was being done in game, so as all units that are corrected you have to relearn that piece of equipment.

Similar to the optic changes on tanks, or the turret traverse speed these changes effect how someone played that piece of equipment, war is about adapting, inprovising and overcoming.

If suicide bombing (directly flying into the target and releasing bombs at the last second) was truly a problem, all you would need is a 1 sec delay, not a 2.5 sec delay.  This explanation doesn't seem to be the honest answer as to why the timer was set that long.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, stump said:

If suicide bombing (directly flying into the target and releasing bombs at the last second) was truly a problem, all you would need is a 1 sec delay, not a 2.5 sec delay.  This explanation doesn't seem to be the honest answer as to why the timer was set that long.

They said they were going to evaluate the results after a bit of time and either leave it alone or decrease the timer. 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, Mosizlak said:

They said they were going to evaluate the results after a bit of time and either leave it alone or decrease the timer. 

That, they said quite clearly it was an ongoing evaluation and that's the smart way to do it. There are games that scream for balance fixes on a weapon system for years and here they monitor, count your blessings

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, stump said:

If suicide bombing (directly flying into the target and releasing bombs at the last second) was truly a problem, all you would need is a 1 sec delay, not a 2.5 sec delay.  This explanation doesn't seem to be the honest answer as to why the timer was set that long.

All air forces had rules for minimum drop altitude, and trained for compliance with those rules, so that pilots would be less likely to get bomb-shrapnel damage to their plane...or be self-killed.

2.5 seconds is a realistic average of rules-based minimum allowed drop altitudes.

1 second would be low enough that realistically, bomb damage to bombers would have to be modeled. That would mean tracking thousands more items, to no realistic end because realistically pilots were expected to drop general purpose bombs from higher altitudes.

By making the bomb fuzing distance equivalent to 2.5 seconds drop time, the coding and client/server work to manage all those fragments that might hit the bomber doesn't need to be done, and the game achieves realism.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/30/2018 at 10:03 PM, jwilly said:

All air forces had rules for minimum drop altitude, and trained for compliance with those rules, so that pilots would be less likely to get bomb-shrapnel damage to their plane...or be self-killed.

2.5 seconds is a realistic average of rules-based minimum allowed drop altitudes.

1 second would be low enough that realistically, bomb damage to bombers would have to be modeled. That would mean tracking thousands more items, to no realistic end because realistically pilots were expected to drop general purpose bombs from higher altitudes.

By making the bomb fuzing distance equivalent to 2.5 seconds drop time, the coding and client/server work to manage all those fragments that might hit the bomber doesn't need to be done, and the game achieves realism.

Back when I was learning, I would hurt or kill myself with bombs.  So it is modelled to a degree already.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, Zebbeee said:

Fyi the new patch reduced it to 2sec

Yes, .5 seconds down, 1 more second to go.  Its progress.  

 

I will say I can't believe they increased RDP time.  Hopefully people start doing more RDP runs and the decision isn't reversed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
56 minutes ago, stump said:

Yes, .5 seconds down, 1 more second to go.  Its progress.  

 

I will say I can't believe they increased RDP time.  Hopefully people start doing more RDP runs and the decision isn't reversed.

RDP time is the same. The factories just take longer to rebuild. They were at 27 hours now at 48.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

My take is that you can release your bombs at a very low altitude and have them arm, maybe too low in my opinion. During testing I was level bombing low enough in a Havoc that my bomb blast killed me. If I get some time in the next few days I will video some tests in the Havoc and Stuka.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/29/2018 at 3:55 PM, gt3076r said:

So the audit was a starting point which after it's implementation has shown that bombs are still largely ineffective on most armor, and yet you choose to prematurely introduce an aircraft change which should've been paired with actually effective bombs. Does your team consider this productive development?

Even the basic tools at hand available to regular players give enough data to track individuals and their behaviors. To imply it was too difficult to track suicide bombers and handle them accordingly is inexcusable.

Sure the bombs work, takes a direct hit on just about anything tougher than an armored car, but they work. Prior to this change, bombing an armored target, killing it, and not killing yourself in the process was hitting a quarter on a dartboard. You've effectively now made it a dime. 

Suicide bombing isn't unique to this game, happens in other combined arms games too. They just don't neuter a game mechanic because of the actions of a few knuckleheads.

People bomb from unrealistic altitudes because of a number of things. Actual game detail, render limits, graphics giving a player the ability to see their target, actual bomb strength vs. targets, being a few reasons here. Justifying the change by simple pointing your finger and declaring "it's historical!" does not apply here.

Tell me, of the players you see reporting they are unhappy with the change, how many names are also on your list of players who suicide bomb? I'm willing to bet very few.

I like this guy. He says all the things that MAKE SENSE, without getting his post deleted ... like mine do. :lol:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 6/29/2018 at 1:53 PM, rpw1 said:

The suicide bombing was starting to get out of hand, especially with one individual who targeted Axis panzers, especially Tigers. In fact he destroyed so many Tigers this way he was awarded a medal by the Allies. I am assuming AHC did not know he was killing Tigers this way or he never would have gotten his medal. Suicide bombing against armour has occurred by both Allied and Axis pilots throughout the games history. This one player though was taking it to extremes however and it was a major topic of discussion on the forums this spring.

And there's your answer right there. Axis complained. It got changed.  *clicks timer*

Edited by lipton

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, lipton said:

And there's your answer right there. Axis complained. It got changed.  *clicks timer*

Lest this get to side biased, the whining about suicide stukas was also pretty loud.  Both sides were complaining about the issue.  If you want to keep going with the CRS is biased arguments, this discussion will end.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The timer update is one of the best update since years from my view.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, cavalier said:

My take is that you can release your bombs at a very low altitude and have them arm, maybe too low in my opinion. During testing I was level bombing low enough in a Havoc that my bomb blast killed me. If I get some time in the next few days I will video some tests in the Havoc and Stuka.

The issue is with dive bombing, where the aircraft is going at an 75-90 degree angle, at a fairly high speed, releasing its bombs, and pulling out of it.  The bombs hit the ground very fast. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.