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dre21

Routed Brigades

38 posts in this topic

The way we have it now a Brigade gets routed it goes into training, after a certain amount of time it comes back into game and can be plugged right into the frontline.

How about this...........

Maybe CRS can implement a way , where routed Brigades go into training but once back from training instead of going strait to the Frontline like we have now,  they start in the back of the map and only every 3 hours they get to advance one town ahead ( simulating the travel to the frontline) till they finally arrive at the frontline.

I think that would almost open up a new layer of tactics . Cause HC needs to see where and how they should travel to make it to the front line in a good pace but also where will they be needed when the time arrives . 

I think it would be neat to see units (Flags)  move from the rear back to the front .

Air Units would get to travel a bit quicker cause well its by air that's why.

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Flags come back automatically to where the HQ is on the map, if HQ is in training it can only be moved to a back line town.

 

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The current ability for routed brigades to re-enter the map minutes from the front is a nonsense that appears to penalise success or local victory. 

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1 hour ago, Silky said:

The current ability for routed brigades to re-enter the map minutes from the front is a nonsense that appears to penalise success or local victory. 

disagree

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36 minutes ago, SCKING said:

disagree

A side engineers an encirclement, executing AO after AO to get the opposition units routed. As it’s doing this, the line naturally reflects the huge effort and supply arrangements this routing takes. Finally, success! The units are routed, the enemy vanquished

 

 

Then, a matter of hours later, the enemy can take full advantage of the odd set up or imperfect lines and magically place units minutes from the front, ready to wage war with complete map advantage of when and where the returning divisions can appear. 

 

It is so, so far from genuine simulation as to be comical. It’s only the fact that the losing side’s population usually deserts for good following a major routing that saves the game from potentially ugly scenes where sides that have done everything right get penalised and find themselves outmanoeuvred by magic divisions 

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No, think it is fine how is.

First, soon as they were trapped, the rear reserves would starting moving to that area.  The 6 hours they are in training is the time the reserves are moving up.  When the unit comes out of training is when the reserves arrive.

Second, the flags go to the HQ after training - so they don't just magically appear anywhere, they appear in one spot, and everyone knows where they will return and when they will return.  IF, the HQ was routed, then the HQ can be placed in any non frontline town, and the flags with it have 1 hour timer.

 

*** only every 3 hours 

Why would they get only once every 3 hours when every other flag on the map moves a town every 15 minutes backline?  That makes no sense.

 

So, don't change anything.

 

Edited by delems

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27 minutes ago, Silky said:

A side engineers an encirclement, executing AO after AO to get the opposition units routed. As it’s doing this, the line naturally reflects the huge effort and supply arrangements this routing takes. Finally, success! The units are routed, the enemy vanquished

 

 

Then, a matter of hours later, the enemy can take full advantage of the odd set up or imperfect lines and magically place units minutes from the front, ready to wage war with complete map advantage of when and where the returning divisions can appear. 

 

It is so, so far from genuine simulation as to be comical. It’s only the fact that the losing side’s population usually deserts for good following a major routing that saves the game from potentially ugly scenes where sides that have done everything right get penalised and find themselves outmanoeuvred by magic divisions 

so you just want routed brigades/hqs punished for more time then.. don’t complicate it more by requiring HC to do additional things for hours that many barely want to do now.

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If a division is bounced, that is surrounded and then kicked with a fight.  The units that have fought to kick that division are on 12 hour resupply timers and yet the bounced units come back fresh in 6 hours. If the population can't take advantage of those 6 hours, I'd say the bounced units are given an unfair advantage coming back fresh.

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6 minutes ago, SCKING said:

so you just want routed brigades/hqs punished for more time then.. don’t complicate it more by requiring HC to do additional things for hours that many barely want to do now.

I haven’t said that. I’ve said that the current replacement scenario is nonsense 

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1 hour ago, Silky said:

I haven’t said that. I’ve said that the current replacement scenario is nonsense 

IRL, armies did form up again units that had been routed, no? 

Eventually make these appear at a factory and make it move up to the frontline.

After 1.36 with its garrison supplies, What about drastically decreasing the ressuply time of flags? As soon a a flag is empty, it desappears from the frontline but re-appears at factories . or something like this

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13 minutes ago, Zebbeee said:

IRL, armies did form up again units that had been routed, no? 

Eventually make these appear at a factory and make it move up to the frontline.

After 1.36 with its garrison supplies, What about drastically decreasing the ressuply time of flags? As soon a a flag is empty, it desappears from the frontline but re-appears at factories . or something like this

Of course armies reformed. But they didn’t magically appear at another point on the front. That’s my beef. You prosecute a campaign to destroy your enemy; you succeed and a few hours back he is reincarnated where you aren’t 

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27 minutes ago, Silky said:

Of course armies reformed. But they didn’t magically appear at another point on the front. That’s my beef. You prosecute a campaign to destroy your enemy; you succeed and a few hours back he is reincarnated where you aren’t 

The ability does not exist to dynamically create what would have been rear-line garrisons and or other ad-hoc units into a fighting force - which would have occured in RL (see bastogne)  .. so the approximation is flag comes back onto map after x hours..

 

Showing up where the enemy isn't is a basic tenant of offensive warfare... 

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8 hours ago, B2K said:

The ability does not exist to dynamically create what would have been rear-line garrisons and or other ad-hoc units into a fighting force - which would have occured in RL (see bastogne)  .. so the approximation is flag comes back onto map after x hours..

 

Showing up where the enemy isn't is a basic tenant of offensive warfare... 

Magically appearing where your enemy isn’t sounds more like Harry Potter than Saving Private Ryan

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5 hours ago, Silky said:

Magically appearing where your enemy isn’t sounds more like Harry Potter than Saving Private Ryan

And yet is the aim of every strategic commander ever (or at least the last few thousand years). 

This game does not (yet) simulate all of the units that would be scattered around that are not part of the main battle formations.  It doesn't have the marshaling areas where units were pulled offline to refit and re-equip. 

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1 hour ago, B2K said:

And yet is the aim of every strategic commander ever (or at least the last few thousand years). 

This game does not (yet) simulate all of the units that would be scattered around that are not part of the main battle formations.  It doesn't have the marshaling areas where units were pulled offline to refit and re-equip. 

So wouldn’t it benefit the game to try to simulate the marshalling and re-equipment by doing something different with supply tickets in returning units?

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My thoughts on routed brigades:

 

Many complain about them being magically able to pop up on the front anywhere.  On the one hand I see where this is kind of silly, but on the other hand one can argue that it simulates the fog of war.  For a war simulation, this game doesn't really reproduce the fog of war effect very well apart from 1 other key feature.  I am able to see every unit my enemy has, anywhere on the map at any time.  Not only that, I am given access to his brigade movement timers and his fallbacks.  The only real fog is the fact that I am unable to see my enemy's supply disposition (which is actually an amazing component of an attrition based warfare sim).  

 

By making routed brigades reform at a factory and move manually to the front, you are just adding more work to an already overburdened HC system and removing one of the few fog of war mechanics.  I'd like to see more fog of war mechanics.  For example, only being able to see enemy brigades that are next to your brigades, unless players get to within town range (the range at which your HUD actually lists a town) of backline towns, at which point they could act as reconnaissance and give a snapshot of enemy unit positions behind the front line (aircraft and scout cars would be ideal for this, as in RL).  

 

The overall silliest part of routed brigades (imo) is that it's more efficient to get an empty brigade routed off the map (6 hours) than it is to get it fully resupplied (15 hours IF factories are producing at 100%).  This is why I think RDP timers should NEVER be above 12 hours.  It's just stupid.  If you want to replicate attritional warfare better, make the lists smaller.  Stop raising the damn resupply timers to obscene levels as a lazy way out.  

 

It would also be cool if RDP damage was also applied to unit reformation times.  At 50% damage, a routed brigade would take 9 hours to reform rather than 6.  

Edited by Capco

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OK so how about Brigade gets routed it comes back instead of having to move it every 3 hours just plot a course and it automatically will follow the plotted course, now if an adjustment needs to be made and it needs to be rerouted it can be done so by just replotting the route. 

I don't think that would take to much time and if it us too much for HC then get rid of that darn system one and for all or let players that have been with the game forever make some decisions. Should not be too hard to go player X you  have max rank and been with game since 10 + years( not HC) please plot the returning Brigades route to the front .

Heck from what I was told enough retired HC still play this game , that would be a tiny task for them to do . It take less then 5min to plot a course hit execute and let the units move automatically.  If the front moves east or west the Brigades move till they encounter a town with a Flag.

It's silly one needs to join some group just to make some map decisions.  

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I am no expert on the rules, but if a routed brigade is brought to full strength faster than resupplying a depleted brigade, then something is really broken. That needs to be fixed before worrying about changing placements and movement from training.

IMHO routed brigades should take twice as long as depleted brigades to get back to full strength.

Edited by GrAnit

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26 minutes ago, GrAnit said:

I am no expert on the rules, but if a routed brigade is brought to full strength faster than resupplying a depleted brigade, then something is really broken. That needs to be fixed before worrying about changing placements and movement from training.

IMHO routed brigades should take twice as long as depleted brigades to get back to full strength.

A routed brigade sits off the map for 6+ hours.. 

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3 hours ago, SCKING said:

A routed brigade sits off the map for 6+ hours.. 

And this time was reduced as it use to be 12 hours. The point of the game is not to win or lose a campaign per sae but to provide entertaining gameplay which are Battles. Having a routed brigade sit off the map for 12 hours use to effect other timezones as well. Can you imagine the recent cut of 9.5 divisions and loging in over that 12 hours to play? Six was hard enough.

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14 minutes ago, BLKHWK8 said:

And this time was reduced as it use to be 12 hours. The point of the game is not to win or lose a campaign per sae but to provide entertaining gameplay which are Battles. Having a routed brigade sit off the map for 12 hours use to effect other timezones as well. Can you imagine the recent cut of 9.5 divisions and loging in over that 12 hours to play? Six was hard enough.

Well, it is your game and business, but I was surprised and a bit disappointed logging in the next day to see that routed brigades were back in action so quickly after the amount of work and length of time it took to complete that encirclement. It was an once in 150+ campaign maneuver!  I really think that took the steam out the axis players.  At that point, IMHO, an axis route of the allies and starting a new campaign would have been better than starting another long, slow grind.  

Battling is fun, but here is an element of a campaign that makes the battles fun because they mean something overall.  Otherwise endless battles just take on the feel of shoebox shooter game.

S!

Edited by GrAnit
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Wait.  It's 6 hours now????

 

That's even sillier then.  I understand your point about getting units back to the front in good time, but then how do you justify the 15 hour resupply timers?  If I lose a Tiger in combat, it takes 15 hours to come back, but if I just let all 4 Tigers in one brigade get cut off they all come back in 6 hours?
 

Do you really think having routed brigades getting resupplied twice as fast as brigades that have retreated in good order makes any sense?  Like how do you justify that discrepancy?  

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I believe the routed brigades timer was adjusted last July.  Supply timers have been adjusted up and down several times since.

Let's paint a scenario where you kept those divsions off the map, allied side doesn't login since supply in the remaining units is gone, so in effect you now encircle them and boom you can no longer set an ao since remaining area is nothing but softcap. 

This game is about the combat. 6 hours seems to be sweet spot as the Victor has an advantage during a significant period and the loser is not penalizing too much where the map becomes a softcap fest.

Again 1.36 will eliminate softcaps and we can revisit the routable timer for the remaining flags (most likely hq size supply) at that tine

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20 hours ago, BLKHWK8 said:

This game is about the combat. 6 hours seems to be sweet spot as the Victor has an advantage during a significant period and the loser is not penalizing too much where the map becomes a softcap fest.

Again, I understand this part very well.  I'm talking about how that contrasts with the 15 hour resupply timer.  

 

You're basically saying it's worth it to have that weird discrepancy (routed brigades getting resupplied faster than an empty, unrouted brigade) in order to prevent boredom?  

 

As an HC officer, if I really wanted to min/max the system, then I could be actively trying to get my empty brigades cut off for the resupply advantage.  And that would be totally legal right?  

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