dre21

Routed Brigades

38 posts in this topic

The timers are also abstractions of doing the exact things @Silky has been requesting.

There is fundamentally no difference in end result between putting a flag at the furthest point back and HC manually moving it from town to town to town to get to the front, and that process taking 6 hours, and HC just teleporting the supply to the correct place after a 6 hour timer. One looks nicer and is a PITA to micromanage, and the other does the same thing and just takes waiting on a timer to tick down.

I don't see the value in making it overly complicated if there is no functional benefit, and only functional detriments. Some might see it as magic, unrealistic teleporting, but it's in fact an abstraction of that unit moving to the front anyway. That's just easier than adding yet another burden on the shoulders of HC.

 

A possible modification to make this abstraction more realistic would be dynamic training timers. Pick a town for each side to represent a "capitol", where a brigade could realistically regroup (not literal capitol, so not London or Paris or Berlin). A brigade that surrenders gets a timer based on the distance between its "capitol" city (not literal capitol, so not London or Paris or Berlin) and the town it was in when it surrendered.

It adds more record-keeping for HC unfortunately, but checking a timer shouldn't be that big of a deal, and it makes the abstraction more realistic.

Edited by chaoswzkd

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48 minutes ago, chaoswzkd said:

The timers are also abstractions of doing the exact things @Silky has been requesting.

There is fundamentally no difference in end result between putting a flag at the furthest point back and HC manually moving it from town to town to town to get to the front, and that process taking 6 hours, and HC just teleporting the supply to the correct place after a 6 hour timer. One looks nicer and is a PITA to micromanage, and the other does the same thing and just takes waiting on a timer to tick down.

I don't see the value in making it overly complicated if there is no functional benefit, and only functional detriments. Some might see it as magic, unrealistic teleporting, but it's in fact an abstraction of that unit moving to the front anyway. That's just easier than adding yet another burden on the shoulders of HC.

 

A possible modification to make this abstraction more realistic would be dynamic training timers. Pick a town for each side to represent a "capitol", where a brigade could realistically regroup (not literal capitol, so not London or Paris or Berlin). A brigade that surrenders gets a timer based on the distance between its "capitol" city (not literal capitol, so not London or Paris or Berlin) and the town it was in when it surrendered.

It adds more record-keeping for HC unfortunately, but checking a timer shouldn't be that big of a deal, and it makes the abstraction more realistic.

Except if HC move the units from rear to the front (which I do not support, for the PITA reason), the opposing HC know where the units are headed and can prepare accordingly. My complaint with the current system is that the returning division HC holds all the cards, despite having been outplayed - they get to deliver a full unit to the front in a completely unrealistic manner

We've seen it before, routing Axis divisions as we push on into the German heartlands, only to have the returning divisions in the far north, threatening the entire campaign and making a mockery of the whole TOES concept. And we've done the same back, place returned divisions at the enemy's weak points because we can choose where they come back with no real obstacles and it reeks of gameyness.

I'd propose changing the supply/ticket timers on returning units or returning the division before the brigades in order to signify where the units are going to return to allowing the opposition to respond in time

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On 6/23/2018 at 11:07 PM, Zebbeee said:

IRL, armies did form up again units that had been routed, no? 

Eventually make these appear at a factory and make it move up to the frontline.

After 1.36 with its garrison supplies, What about drastically decreasing the ressuply time of flags? As soon a a flag is empty, it desappears from the frontline but re-appears at factories . or something like this

 

This is what reserves were for. They were already equipped, trained, not very deep in rear and ready to move to frontline. Logically high command very carefully used its reserves, because they were limited, and their loss could lead to a catastrophic situation. But re-forming routed brigade seems not so simple task. You need people. To mobilize them (they was too young to be in first wave or too old or not so healthy, or enough sly to manage to hide from mobilizing). Or they were already mobilized, but after hospitals after cure of light wounds or from another front.
You need factories and energy resouces to produce today's weapons and ammunition. Also you need working logistics to connect them all with those people(against it worked bombers, saboteurs, the weather and who knows who else..). If you do not have these(or they are limited in quantity), then maybe is possible to use old weaponry from storehouses (which too was vulnerable to bombers), but old weapons were old weapons... etc. etc.

Really big and interesting part of the last war, imho,  perhaps, not so much about BoF, because of its too short-terming in the RL.

Edited by lemkeh

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In my eyes it has never made sense that that you can cut off a Brigade and then have all sort of towns with no Brigades around them and they show the white Flag , there should be something in place where the one side needs to have the encircled town surrounded by a certain amount of hours /days with Brigades before the white flag even comes into play . 

I always find it odd that there are still active Brigades behind the lines but showing the white flag while the other side has all their Brigades a few town east or west on the Frontline. 

Of course I can be wrong here with what I wrote I have never really payed that much check attention to the whole flag movement , white flag , chess HC game but  I know I have seen still active Flags in a pocket and it was pretty much useless to be there cause they would surrender . In my eyes the other side should have to fight to take that town or deplete it to a certain amount of Equipment before the surrender white flag takes effect.

That way you can't just encircle a unit and then leave your back exposed to them . No one would do that in real life but we do it in game day in day out. 

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IIRC brigades under white flags can try to break out. The reason why white flags come into play is so the game can better model supply. Also, you don't want 2 Allied brigades in an encircled Metz softcap north and win the game by themselves because Axis moved to hold the front lines.

It's pretty silly and completely unrealistic. The current surrender mechanics are only somewhat silly and somewhat unrealistic. It's a known thing, and people have suggested improvements. But it's better than not having them.

Edited by chaoswzkd

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If encircled units didn’t automatically rout, there’d be all kinds of mechanics problems. With the soft/hard AOs rule, a side could leave routed units rotting, and would then have a divisional advantage everywhere else on the front. 

Similarly, the AO mechanic would cause problems for the winning side if pocketed units were just left indefinitely. The risk of pocketed units using soft AOs to go on rampages would mean all AOs would be used to crush the pocket, meaning the missing divisions couldn’t be exploited fully, or you’d have the situation where the winning side is trying to crush the pocket whilst the pocketed units expand the pocket in a different direction, a comical, nonsensical situation that would encourage full surrounding of a pocket, which would in turn create space elsewhere on the front, punishing the winning side for winning.

 

i think I’m satisfied with the current pocket surrender mechanism, it is the magic, surprise return warping of fully supplied divisions to the front that troubles me 

Edited by Silky

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22 hours ago, dre21 said:

In my eyes it has never made sense that that you can cut off a Brigade and then have all sort of towns with no Brigades around them and they show the white Flag , there should be something in place where the one side needs to have the encircled town surrounded by a certain amount of hours /days with Brigades before the white flag even comes into play . 

I always find it odd that there are still active Brigades behind the lines but showing the white flag while the other side has all their Brigades a few town east or west on the Frontline. 

Of course I can be wrong here with what I wrote I have never really payed that much check attention to the whole flag movement , white flag , chess HC game but  I know I have seen still active Flags in a pocket and it was pretty much useless to be there cause they would surrender . In my eyes the other side should have to fight to take that town or deplete it to a certain amount of Equipment before the surrender white flag takes effect.

That way you can't just encircle a unit and then leave your back exposed to them . No one would do that in real life but we do it in game day in day out. 

Back before surrender, both HC's had a habit of cutting off, then attritting to the point of uselessness the other sides brigades... then leaving those useless brigades on the map and rolling on to victory. 

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Following on Lemkeh's post, maybe the unrealistic feel comes from taking too literally the idea that it is the *same* brigade that routs, goes off map for a few hours, gets "trained" and "resupplied", and then travels back. Of course that could never in reality happen on such a timescale to a brigade that routed or surrendered.

Instead, conceptualize the returning brigade as the activation of reserves already nearby, in response to a part of the front that has just experienced a disaster (routed brigde(s)). One response might be to plug the new hole in the front, another might be to exert pressure elsewhere. So "teleporting" represents a decision about where to activate reserves.

So do really we need something to prevent the HC from gaming the system and abandoning a brigade in order to get its full supply back sooner? (I don't know that this has ever actually been a strategy.) Maybe gaminess could be discouraged by lengthening the return times for all routed brigades that are in process, depending on the number of brigades that are in the return process. That way, HC would be loathe to take the risk of allowing multiple brigades to overlap in routing status (and if you get half your army surrounded and routed, then that probably *should* be a campaign-ender). But one brigade now and again is just the ebb and flow of normal battle.

I am assuming that under the upcoming new supply rules something like this will still apply to the moveable flags, but the new mechanics might make it moot.

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What if, the HC in command of the defeated and left to rot brigade was able to surrender it, to bring it back in play with the current training grounds time out
penalty etc.

But...

If the enemy left even 10 riflemen in that brigade, the HC could choose to leave it there, let the enemy pull out some rope
and let those 10 guys attempt to go out and cut the rope.

yea, they may fail, but if they do at least they had a choice about it.
And again, if it appears totally hopeless, HC can have the brigade surrender

And, if you cut of a nearly full brigade, and thought it was going to be a smooth ride to the other end of the map, it may not fare so well having left a full
and angry brigade in your rear.

Just an idea?

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1 hour ago, palatine said:

So do really we need something to prevent the HC from gaming the system and abandoning a brigade in order to get its full supply back sooner?

Yes - it's why flags have to be attrited below a certain point before being able to be pulled of map. 

- the history of this game is replete with examples of both sides HC, and players, doing absolutely everything they can to game the current game mechanisms (whatever they were at a specific time) to gain advantage.  CRS blew a lot of Dev hours having to do crap like code in surrenders, rebuilding every capture and spawn point (but adding poles/obstacles to ensure some sort of ingress/egress was possible), adding timers to flags in training, making self-routing be restricted to only those units near balance, etc...... 

And yes - post 'cutoff', pre-surrender it was a tactic regularly used

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The auto surrender code is still the single best change I've ever seen in this game, period.

Yes, the 6 hours might be a tad short for in training, but all in all it works just fine.  And, imo is good if it 'helps' the under pop side a bit coming back full strength.

Works well as is, let it be.

Besides, none of this matters with 1.36.

 

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1 hour ago, delems said:

Besides, none of this matters with 1.36.

Unless, i surround and cut off your town with the garrison intact, or at least somewhat intact.
And so you go get kareca and tormented and the 31st wc together and decide nah, we aint goin out like this.
And you get organised and set out to try to punch through and rejoin the lines and poof, Dilbert Wadley waves a white flag and
surrenders out from under you.

Thats the aspect of it (auto surrender) that i think most people dont like, when you have enough units to at least make an attempt
and the timer pulls the rug out from under you simply cause you couldnt organize it fast enough.

Was a night, not too far back, axis had made a nasty cut in multiple sections, and we were fighting to hold an opening to pull the brigades back behind dunkirk, they had too much steam and we too little supply and people and we knew they were going to close the opening.
Had to pull back and secure the lines to stop the run.
But one brigade had got stranded and could not move out, it had probably 75% or more supply but the cut was deep, the distance could not be closed before the surrender kicked in.
So there it sat, and off to training it went rather than becoming an angry little swarm of bees left in the back yard.

It takes time to place the AO's then have them go live, then have flags go hot etc, sometimes you simply can't beat the timers.

Edited by merlin51

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*** the timer pulls the rug out from under you 

No, you ran out of food, water, medicine, fuel and ammo....  all things the game doesn't model.

Abstracted in the 6 hour surrender time per frontline town.

 

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