Mosizlak

Not seeing ANY improvement in HE

44 posts in this topic

Not a single bit. 

Bofors rounds doing nothing to spitfires and db7s, just like before. 

37mm HE from DDs landing near EI and nothing. 

German grenadiers totally worthless now. 

88mm HE landing 5m from EI and not even a damage. 

Not exactly blowing my skirt up...

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Patience, you have new HE, which showed up a need for new EI, which are coming.
The HE itself is working, the EI are now the misbehaving ones.

Old HE just tossed a small handful of bricks, and infantry were wrongly made to only respond to be hitting by said brick.
(some obscure thing someone did to them many years past)
Now HE is throwing a bunch of various sized jagged sharp nasty pieces of metal in various sizes, but infantry are saying
Oh that's not a brick, i shall just pretend i never saw it happen.

You are hitting them, they are simply ignoring it.
But they wont be, they've had to be completely redone in that aspect of their DM

When i say ignoring your HE, i mean on your side, not the targets
since you are the one running the damage calcs.

VS AC i can not answer about.

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1 hour ago, merlin51 said:

Patience, you have new HE, which showed up a need for new EI, which are coming.
The HE itself is working, the EI are now the misbehaving ones.

Old HE just tossed a small handful of bricks, and infantry were wrongly made to only respond to be hitting by said brick.
(some obscure thing someone did to them many years past)
Now HE is throwing a bunch of various sized jagged sharp nasty pieces of metal in various sizes, but infantry are saying
Oh that's not a brick, i shall just pretend i never saw it happen.

You are hitting them, they are simply ignoring it.
But they wont be, they've had to be completely redone in that aspect of their DM

When i say ignoring your HE, i mean on your side, not the targets
since you are the one running the damage calcs.

VS AC i can not answer about.

Any update on the status of implementing the inf fix for HE?

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Can't say I'm sorry to hear the German Grenadier "is totally worthless now".  Seeing as it was totally make believe before. ;)

Edited by lipton

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23 hours ago, GrAnit said:

Any update on the status of implementing the inf fix for HE?

Not that i could give no, i am waiting just same as you.

I would imagine since it is a kind of big change to infantry, it will have to run through some heavy bouts of testing
to assure it works as intended.

I know we would all like it yesterday, but as you already see, sometimes when you fix one thing to work as it properly should
you get this unwanted surprise of finding that other things were made to interact with it in a wrong way.
It's kind of like fixing an old house that has 200 years of repairs, and some of the repairs are wrong and you take one thing apart to redo it right and suddenly find WTH??
the 2 things under it are fubar, so you got to dig a bit to make sure you are coming back with everything solid.

I've been working at the other end of the house (it's a big house) on nightmares of my own so that's really all i can say

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On 7/3/2018 at 11:12 PM, merlin51 said:

Patience, you have new HE, which showed up a need for new EI, which are coming.
The HE itself is working, the EI are now the misbehaving ones.

Old HE just tossed a small handful of bricks, and infantry were wrongly made to only respond to be hitting by said brick.
(some obscure thing someone did to them many years past)
Now HE is throwing a bunch of various sized jagged sharp nasty pieces of metal in various sizes, but infantry are saying
Oh that's not a brick, i shall just pretend i never saw it happen.

You are hitting them, they are simply ignoring it.
But they wont be, they've had to be completely redone in that aspect of their DM

When i say ignoring your HE, i mean on your side, not the targets
since you are the one running the damage calcs.

VS AC i can not answer about.

Great about the Inf fix but what abount the spit and DB7 issue Mo was refering to as well??

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As someone who has played a LOT of AAA sorties, before and after the patch, I have to say that I can definitely identify differences.

DB7s and Havocs die much more easily than they used to. Used to be, you hit them 4+ times and they could still fly off. Now, depending on where you hit, you can kill them with only 1 or 2. However, I have definitely seen them get hit with 4 and smoke but otherwise have no discernable damage.

Props seems to get destroyed much more easily, which is nice since that means only 1 hit to the nose is needed.

Hurricanes, Spitfires, etc. can easily die in a single well-placed hit, and even some that aren't that well-placed. First AAA kill I had after the patch was one-shotting a Hurricane with the 37mm SPAA.

 

All of that said, I've also seen some silly situations more reminiscent of pre-patch. I've also emptied 60+ cannon rounds and MGs on the back of a single DB7 with an E-4 and cause no discernable damage, as if the hit box from the rear was an invulnerable shield. So there are still some problems that need to be fixed regarding the damage models I believe.

The issues with it not affecting EI like it should are known and being fixed.

 

So, in short:

On 7/3/2018 at 11:08 PM, Mosizlak said:

Not exactly blowing my skirt up...

My skirt was definitely blown up.

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2 hours ago, bmw said:

Great about the Inf fix but what abount the spit and DB7 issue Mo was refering to as well??

As i said above, i do not know, i wouldn't even be qualified enough to make a guess.
I barely understand why planes fly let alone what causes cessation of flight.

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After flying now I do have to say the HE behaves wonky, I had a HE round hit my cockpit I was looking out window as it hit with no effect on my pilot and he should have been dead.

Edited by dre21

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34 minutes ago, dre21 said:

After flying now I do have to say the HE behaves wonky, I had a HE round hit my cockpit I was looking out window as it hit with no effect on my pilot and he should have been dead.

Hard to say there because you can not see hit location accurately in 3rd person
You could see the round incoming right in the windshield, but i actually hit your left landing gear.

Not saying it didnt happen, but you nearly have to get a friend and coordinate on training server
so you can know exactly whats going on from both sides of the event

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20 hours ago, merlin51 said:

Hard to say there because you can not see hit location accurately in 3rd person
You could see the round incoming right in the windshield, but i actually hit your left landing gear.

Not saying it didnt happen, but you nearly have to get a friend and coordinate on training server
so you can know exactly whats going on from both sides of the event

True, however, HE is still pretty bad regardless.

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This problem could be so easily fix it's silly and be like 100 times more efficient, just model a death, Wound radius and only calculate and throw sharpnel(big pieces) outside that radius.

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1 hour ago, pbveteran said:

This problem could be so easily fix it's silly and be like 100 times more efficient, just model a death, Wound radius and only calculate and throw sharpnel(big pieces) outside that radius.

easy huh? lol...

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2 hours ago, pbveteran said:

This problem could be so easily fix it's silly and be like 100 times more efficient, just model a death, Wound radius and only calculate and throw sharpnel(big pieces) outside that radius.

I am curious how that would fix anything?
It seems instead that it would revert HE back to the horrible model it was almost.

HE should not be lobbing hypersonic bricks, no HE lobs brick sized frags, big bombs dont even go lobbing bricks for casing frags.

The issues are already being addressed, and addressed in the most correct manner possible.
He was redone in its 1st stage towards proper realism
Infantry were found to be made in an arbitrary way that allowed them to ignore frags that were not bricks.
So, infantry are being redone with a much better more proper DM
Effects from concussion were found to be very lacking on all targets, so work on having proper concussive damage is in progress.

That is the "easy" fix, make a thing right, and then go about removing all the related past sins you come across, anything else is just more arbitrary sins revisited.

otherwise you get this

Make frags hypersonic bricks
PROBLEM: said bricks are caving in the sides of tanks where they should not
Make tanks more armored VS the bricks
PROBLEM: now AP rounds can not penetrate tank
Make AP rounds carry more joules
PROBLEM: AP rounds not doing way more damage than they should
Raise damage on affected items
PROBLEM: now other units can not affect the items with raised damage limits
Raise damage of other............

I dont think we want to ride that merry go round any more? 

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To be fair pbveteran isn't wrong, if you know HE would %100 kill within a certain radius then just kill everything within it, if HE would badly wound anything within a certain radius then do that, then you just throw frags at anything outside of that, it would save on the calculations . One problem could be how you calculate for people behind cover though.

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17 minutes ago, Nick said:

To be fair pbveteran isn't wrong, if you know HE would %100 kill within a certain radius then just kill everything within it, if HE would badly wound anything within a certain radius then do that, then you just throw frags at anything outside of that,

It might sound appealing but then what you effectively get is no ballistic simulation anymore but plain forward hit boxes and area damage like in an arcade games.

I think merlin explained it quite well that concussion damage could work out the problems if combined with a realistic frag damage modell.

I hope that works out. There is just no "really simple solution" that would work like we all expect damage to be simulated.

Edited by vanapo

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1 hour ago, Nick said:

To be fair pbveteran isn't wrong, if you know HE would %100 kill within a certain radius then just kill everything within it, if HE would badly wound anything within a certain radius then do that, then you just throw frags at anything outside of that, it would save on the calculations . One problem could be how you calculate for people behind cover though.

But see, even that does not work out correctly.
Bomb lands beside tank
Infantry standing 15 feet on other side of tank.

Frags should probably not touch the infantry at all
Tank body absorbs those
Cant code it to gen frags with no regards to the tank, or those infantry are cut to shreds as if the tank did not exist.
By frags that magically materialize at an invisible 15 foot radius.

They should get hit by concussion, but again, the tank being there, it is disturbing some of the pressure wave
so the infantry should not necessarily suffer an instant fatal concussion that a hard coded instakill zone would create.
Tank can absorb a lot of energy

Infantry behind a fence? fence doesnt absorb much of anything, infantry become one with the remains of the fence

Infantry prone behind a 3 foot thick earth berm?
Worst worries are ringing ears and dirt in their eyes, youd be amazed at what dirt stops.

Infantry just standing there picking their butts?
Think world of hurt.

You wont get that with a fixed kludge, and you have to run around kludging other things to get the intended outcome instead
of getting all the effects right and letting the proper physics dictate the outcome in a variable fashion.

Kludges are the problem now, you take a thing, you make it as right as you can in a game software and then you find that while it now works very good
other things are ignoring it because they were kludged to react to the kludge that you just got rid of and did correctly.

The management would like to announce that the kludge that just kludged the kludges that were kludging has been kludged.
But it's only funny when Monty Python does it.

Edited by merlin51

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Btw in programming you have to 'kludge' things to make them appear as near to real life as you can, you can't possibly try to simulate things exactly as they are, computers aren't powerful enough. It's all very well throwing a bazillian frags around but if takes your computer even a 10th of a second to process then it isn't much good for a game.

 

Edited by Nick
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WW2ol was always a fragment based model and it makes damaged by calculating joules and passing those joules to other components obviously this involves way much calculations and to have realistic result you have to have way more calculations and be more than simply joule based, you can sometimes even see a half a second lag or so when you have a shot penetrated here and it's doing all calculations.

The WW2ol HE is calculated by generating thousands of pieces small, big and medium.. I'm not sure if this new model use threads to give better the performance which is improving a system that it's core is badly implemented. The reason for HE to not perform well is first an explosion is not just the fragmentation but also the explosive shock, second the longer the target is away from the point of impact the harder is for a fragment to hit him due to the dispersion, so what CRS is doing is simply adding more fragments to the model.

 

But please read and take a look how warthunder model, it works better it's way more efficient, it's more realistic and provides better results in context with what you heard in real life than WW2ol.

They use radius cones and only in the end do they calculate the fragments, so if you round penetrates and the HE radius kills the crew the fragmentation is not calculated. (smarter programmers?!:rolleyes:

2.jpg

https://warthunder.com/en/devblog/current/594/

Edited by pbveteran

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On 7/10/2018 at 11:27 PM, SNIPER62 said:

easy huh? lol...

Yes if you start by making a game from 0.. it would be much much simpler and efficient to implement a radius based model also with fragments and inverse raycasting than the current heavy fragment and joules based system.

I wish you or others devs would removed the current model and made a new one from scratch like warthunder it might be simpler and in medium terms it more be cheaper than the black box property system you guys are using..

 

@merlin51

Easily done by checking who is inside that radius and inverse raycasting to the point of impact, if true then you calculated the likeness of a fragment to hit him.

Edited by pbveteran

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8 minutes ago, pbveteran said:

They use radius cones and only in the end do they calculate the fragments, so if you round penetrates and the HE radius kills the crew the fragmentation is not calculated. (smarter programmers?!:rolleyes:

First of, war thunder has HE with fragmentation spread in a sphere aswell.Look at how artillery shells will explodes on the ground. Keep in mind you only see fragments that will actually hit/damage something on/inside your vehicle. This will look like a cone, not like a sphere. Doesn't mean that there is no sphere to begin with.

Second: You did realize they don't have any infantry running around in warthunder? They only have big targets like tanks. You know how they probably simulate HE shell because of that? Exactly how ww2ol did this before the HE remodelling: They got very few, very energy rich fragments flying around. BTW: Those fragments can penetrate a tank way better than they should.

Would they be good enough to simulate the effect of HE against tanks AND infantry? I doubt that a lot.

I play war thunder a lot and I have seen a lot of the hit cams. If you watch them closely, you see that WT does a really good job at simulating tank v tank shelling and after penetration effects. But the systems wouldn't work quite as well in our game.

 

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@vanapo

That isn't really what is happening behind the game programming wise, there are 2 parts of that dev blog btw.

Let me try to explain the Radius is more as a selection tool, lets take that example of an Arty shell, the game sees there is a tank inside the explosion radius, can the explosion kill the tank ? -> No then generate fragments from point of impact, did it hit ? yes.. Is there a possibility to penetrate the tank? Yes then make the precise armor and ballistic calculation.. Did it penetrate the tank? yes. Then add a review video of the fragments that penetrated the tank.

 

To have an efficient system you start by first going with the most general and less demanding calculation, that is simply checking if at that range from the explosion it would be certain death.. if not you dive in more complex and demanding calculations. 

This to say that as I understand the current model generates thousands of sharpnel when you hit some soldiers feet or if there is no viable target in the vicinity.. it's not as efficient as warthunder uses.

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6 hours ago, Nick said:

Did you miss the last part of what I wrote @merlin51? lol

No i didnt see any of it, i started the post at noon, but with work interrupting it was like 4 hours later when it got submitted lol

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2 hours ago, pbveteran said:

@vanapo

That isn't really what is happening behind the game programming wise, there are 2 parts of that dev blog btw.

Let me try to explain the Radius is more as a selection tool, lets take that example of an Arty shell, the game sees there is a tank inside the explosion radius, can the explosion kill the tank ? -> No then generate fragments from point of impact, did it hit ? yes.. Is there a possibility to penetrate the tank? Yes then make the precise armor and ballistic calculation.. Did it penetrate the tank? yes. Then add a review video of the fragments that penetrated the tank.

 

To have an efficient system you start by first going with the most general and less demanding calculation, that is simply checking if at that range from the explosion it would be certain death.. if not you dive in more complex and demanding calculations. 

This to say that as I understand the current model generates thousands of sharpnel when you hit some soldiers feet or if there is no viable target in the vicinity.. it's not as efficient as warthunder uses.

Actually you may want to catch up a bit.  

http://forums.wwiionline.com/forums/topic/412962-new-he-model/#comment-6268743

http://forums.wwiionline.com/forums/topic/412355-new-he-model-and-bomb-effects/#comment-6260664

 

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