gt3076r

The Concept of 'The WWIIOL Moment'

15 posts in this topic

I like the idea of the WWIIOL moment.  I agree that when done correctly, that experience has the potential to seal a player's interest in the game for the long run.

However, Xoom's article is flawed on a few points. 

First and foremost, and simply put, the WWIIOL moment only happens when the server is sufficiently populated. This is frequently not the case. **Before anybody even gets there, please spare the 'it's summer time!' excuse for low population.** The game's Steam numbers for example are the lowest they've been since release. Free to play through Steam needs to be reintroduced to build your population up, assuming it's not too late. What do the players who invested in this company, particularly for Steam-related purposes, think about the results? Surely CRS cannot be happy with them, and the specials that have been ran have had near zero effect on increasing active users.

Second, the article suggests something which was a mistake of the past - putting the responsibility of training new people on the shoulders of veteran players. That is not their responsibility, it is CRS' as a game designer. Certainly veterans may help and some may actively want to do so, but they should not be counted on to take on this task. A couple off-the-cuff solutions to retaining and educating new players would be to develop an actual, real tutorial to learn the game (hint: nobody needs to learn WASD moves the character around) or have staff hold scheduled weekly training nights for new people. 

Third, and lastly, I'd tread lightly on accusing long-time paying customers of 'laziness' for not doing roles which are A.) boring as all hell and B.) have no tangible in-game reward. That is just foolish. A solution here is to explore options to truly reward players for doing the dirty jobs and for executing proper teamwork. Currently the game has next to zero incentives for players to go through the trouble of organizing a force and working as a team other than the fact that it works sometimes to win a battle. Other games which implement somewhat mundane tasks also employ a generous points-reward system for doing said tasks and working as a team. Not only as these jobs necessary evils in the game currently, but they are also the 'easy jobs' - ones that new players can learn, and benefit from if they'd actually earn some points for doing them. Hell, considering the idle time involved in most of them, experiencing that WWIIOL moment may even be more likely than up close combat.

Separate thought: the points reward system in general for this game needs a total rework. I'm not getting into it now, I've written about it previously, but basically a new player who actually buys the premium sub has little to no chance of ranking up enough to even use the better equipment with the points system currently in place. Keep that in mind especially considering what someone who buys the premium sub is actually looking to obtain from it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A whole lot of finger pointing to fix things without taking any responsibility as a community member to do so. We have to work together as a team, CRS and the community, that's what it is going to take in order to get the ball rolling, a total commitment on everyone's part to do what is required for the greater good of the game. That is the primary purpose I'm trying to illustrate, and particularly when it comes to the game, CRS does have a responsibility to game design and everything else in between, but so do the players.

Players who are actively subscribing and participating in communication are ensuring our continuation in that regard. But I have seen first hand, good, knowledgeable and highly capable people decide to not step up and do what is necessary to maintain the core elements of what has made our game fun. We have veterans who demand that we make limited to no changes into how the game actually functions, in fear of things getting dumbed down. If that is the case, then your end of the deal must be stepped up. If that is not what you want, then we have to find methods by which we can automate them. A "case in point" example would be 1.36 and the evolution of balancing automation / game stability while providing still some manual interpretation for how things go. Using that methodology we may be able to apply similar fixes in other areas where applicable.

My intent of saying "Hey, wake up, quit being lazy," was fair and it was not directed in a disrespectful manner. Rather, it is to be reminded of the important role that every human player here plays. Our game is most successful when there is organization and leadership. We should be working together, everyone, to foster the development of upcoming leaders and supporting them in and out of the game, on and off the field.

My hope is that you, and other community members, do recognize your responsibility in all of this. Being apart of this community in your shoes gives me the experience to know that is required. Back then we stepped up and did what we had to do and we found immense joy in the entire process of creating the "WWII Online moment," particularly the pay off of everyone having fun and being a primary facilitator in that coming to fruition. That's called leadership and there's a lot of recognition to come with that. I think we see some of this still, in spurts, but the community collectively has either forgotten how to do this stuff or it just doesn't come around enough to experience. And that experience is vital to capturing the very best of what this game has to offer, which has kept us here for so long, actively in pursuit of doing it again.

If you're saying you have no confidence in our players to be able to lead or to facilitate that moment, you're asking for me to consider to dumb down the game and find methods by which we can automate it. So I don't assume, which are you asking for? And another question, do you think this is entirely on CRS's plate to manage, and that the players have zero responsibility in this regard?

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The game is going in a good direction dev wise in my opinion, I agree that the player base has to step up and its the player base that keeps things rolling.

I've been thinking about advertising training sessions on the training server to help new players learn how the game works a little better, I think if we did something like that we could help the players and also help retain players maney ppl come in and have no idea what to do, they just follow the green arrow.

S! keep up the great work ya RATS

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, XOOM said:

If you're saying you have no confidence in our players to be able to lead or to facilitate that moment, you're asking for me to consider to dumb down the game and find methods by which we can automate it. So I don't assume, which are you asking for? And another question, do you think this is entirely on CRS's plate to manage, and that the players have zero responsibility in this regard?

I recognize that the above response was to a particular post, but I'm going out on a limb and assuming that "you" is addressed to the community.

A game that's dumbed-down so far that CRS could entirely automate leadership/facilitation wouldn't be the game many of us are here for. And, many of us recognize that CRS doesn't have the resources to do those functions with employees. So, ideal or not, the community has to do that part of the work.

My respectful suggestion...balancing my understanding that CRS needs every possible subscriber, versus the disruption caused by "negative waves"...would be that CRS simply communicate to those customers who want a different game than CRS is committed to providing, that perhaps they'd be happier elsewhere, and if they want to be here, they should get with the program.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, XOOM said:

A whole lot of finger pointing to fix things without taking any responsibility as a community member to do so.

You must have missed the part where I took the time to highlight a few roadblocks which will prevent an otherwise great marketing plan (WWIIOL moment) and offer solution ideas for them, aka, the entire post.

1 hour ago, XOOM said:

That is the primary purpose I'm trying to illustrate, and particularly when it comes to the game, CRS does have a responsibility to game design and everything else in between, but so do the players.

The players have no responsibility to do anything but play the game, and be entertained by the game in ways they see fit. For those that wish to step up to the plate and do more (and there are many), they should be welcomed as a bonus but not relied on. To rely on your player base to do a job that you need to make sure it getting done is the same mistake which was made by Doc and co. You go on about being a veteran and a player of many years. How do you miss this point?

1 hour ago, XOOM said:

If you're saying you have no confidence in our players to be able to lead or to facilitate that moment, you're asking for me to consider to dumb down the game and find methods by which we can automate it.

What? No where did I say that. Did you even read my post? Automation and dumbing down the game are big no-no's. Actually building a system that rewards people doing all of the necessary jobs of an assault properly is the solution here. The game currently offers almost nothing for doing those odd jobs besides 'it'll be fun in the moment' or 'maybe the AO will succeed' or a pittance of points rewarded towards next rank, if any at all. 

1 hour ago, XOOM said:

And another question, do you think this is entirely on CRS's plate to manage, and that the players have zero responsibility in this regard?

As stated earlier in this post, the players have no responsbility whatsoever but to simply play the game. There is the option to go above and beyond and volunteer in a multitude of ways. That is not a responsibility to be undertaken by players who are capable, it is simply a bonus tool you may use moving forward. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So in essence, you would like the game to be more automated and directional to help facilitate that moment without any human intervention except to act as an optional participant. Thereby, reducing the humanistic value and interpretation for the outcome of how things are to be. That is your version of fun, does the rest of the community agree with this version of fun?

To be sure, I have read your post, but I'm holding you accountable to the fact based reality that placing all of your hopes and desires on CRS to facilitate the game play that has been the core value of WWII Online, which has been highly engaged with humans determining the outcome, cannot be a singular fault, or solution.

We can provide more tools, but if players are not exercising them, what good will they be? PPOs for example, are highly underutilized. Mission leaders, way points, .allied and .axis, mission orders, are highly underutilized. 

I live and breathe this game, and I do not act to know it all by any means, but I will not let you point the finger without holding you to account as well in this equation, sorry. My thoughts come from several different data source points, some of which are accessible to you, several which are not. 

I will re-affirm that we have a responsibility to take information and suggestions as presented to by the player base into the consideration pool. We own that and accept our role in all of this. We also take it very seriously and I appreciate your thoughts coming across in a productive and intended to be constructive manner as well, so kudos there (I mean that).

Re-inviting players on Steam to come back for free will be an unlikely situation, at least unless we make some of the improvements as outlined in our Roadmap come to life, which they're in progress and taking longer than expected due to some turn over that was unforeseen. At a minimum however we really need to examine the new player experience so we can work to better retain newcomers.

Bottom line, CRS cannot code in-game leadership. And without in-game leadership, or leadership in any organization, preferably an effective leadership team, things won't go so hot. So this has been a call to STEP UP, and really cling on to the fact that we've got to not just maintain, but to progress across the entire board. I think that's something we can agree with here.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, flong139 said:

I've been thinking about advertising training sessions on the training server to help new players learn how the game works a little better, I think if we did something like that we could help the players and also help retain players maney ppl come in and have no idea what to do, they just follow the green arrow.

Xoom, above is a great example of what I'm talking about.

It is not flong's responsibility to go out of his way and spend his free time training new players about the game. But, this is a tool that will help you for certain. Reminds me of the Training Corps years back and the stuff those guys did. I do wonder how many people stuck around in this game thanks to the efforts of players like tempest and g3a3. It had to have been sizeable. 

But, you shouldn't look at your whiteboard of ideas and cross off the training new people aspect with the solution 'the players will do it.' The mutual goal of the game's longevity which is shared by you and the community is not justification to place responsibility on the community to do anything whatsoever. Calling players lazy who are more than capable to doing the jobs that need to be done but choose not to makes zero sense - they're here for their own entertainment. Organization, leadership, etc. are totally optional in the game's current state. There are no mechanics that force this and hardly anything that rewards it. Addressing that in itself instead of leaning on players to do it naturally is the real solution.

Cover your own bases first. Do you understand what I'm saying?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, gt3076r said:

Xoom, above is a great example of what I'm talking about.

It is not flong's responsibility to go out of his way and spend his free time training new players about the game. But, this is a tool that will help you for certain. Reminds me of the Training Corps years back and the stuff those guys did. I do wonder how many people stuck around in this game thanks to the efforts of players like tempest and g3a3. It had to have been sizeable. 

But, you shouldn't look at your whiteboard of ideas and cross off the training new people aspect with the solution 'the players will do it.' The mutual goal of the game's longevity which is shared by you and the community is not justification to place responsibility on the community to do anything whatsoever. Calling players lazy who are more than capable to doing the jobs that need to be done but choose not to makes zero sense - they're here for their own entertainment. Organization, leadership, etc. are totally optional in the game's current state. There are no mechanics that force this and hardly anything that rewards it. Addressing that in itself instead of leaning on players to do it naturally is the real solution.

Cover your own bases first. Do you understand what I'm saying?

The Community Manager @BLKHWK8 has been considering how to get Training going again. The Game Manager @OHM is working plans to create far more engaging intermission scenarios. @HEAVY265 has been preparing squad vs squad events and such which would be really fantastic. These are the guys to talk to about putting these things into play.

We have updated our basic training and made it mandatory so that new players coming in have a better chance at knowing what to do. 

G3A3 was a player volunteer who recognized that there was a gap in the system and STEPPED UP to fill that role. Same thing can be said about a guy named (Tiger319 I think it was), Aomercy, Gvonpaul, Oldzeke and several other people who decided to take the initiative and do something about it.

You're isolating your focus on this feeling of being offended and "lazy." I am glad to have caught your attention and enable deep thought to occur here because this introspective thinking is required if we are to find a way forward. Perhaps you yourself can be a really effective leader, you've at least demonstrated to be capable of an effective communicator. But rather stepping up and recognizing that there's a job to be done, you're simply putting it on CRS to figure it out for you. And that is the point I'm trying to make.

When I was in High Command I learned very quickly that if I wanted something done, I wouldn't wait on CRS or upper command to help me. I'd knock it out to my satisfaction and within my control and capability. I find I use that same principle in business and particularly here at CRS.

So what kind of game do you want to have, and what are you going to do about making that happen, within your realm of capability and control?

I'd start there, and then work towards providing well thought out solutions. If you think that is inappropriate, then I'd say that's a serious concern to any discussion that needs to be productive. If you're wondering what my solutions are, check the Roadmap, it's the best that we can do and have come up with to tackle a wide variety of issues and that's the things we're working on.

If there's something not on the Roadmap that you think may be achievable, let me know and we can see how realistic or low-hanging fruit it might be. If we have the resources to achieve it and it's not a huge time dump and has a big pay out, that's a no brainer.

I am not biased when it comes to good suggestions, if I agree with you or not, it has no bearing on good decision making. What ever results into WWII Online and CRS's success being optimal is my focus and mission.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, XOOM said:

So in essence, you would like the game to be more automated and directional to help facilitate that moment without any human intervention except to act as an optional participant. Thereby, reducing the humanistic value and interpretation for the outcome of how things are to be. That is your version of fun, does the rest of the community agree with this version of fun?

Dude, seriously... read the damn post. I literally said automation and dumbing down the game are no-no's. I've advocated for building game mechanics which incentivize and reward players for doing tasks beneficial to team play. 

Simple example: have MSP's pay out way higher for those spawned to whoever placed it, or manned trucks if that's still a thing. This would be particularly useful if the payout would be higher for new players of low rank. Simple job they can do which is a necessary step for team play and game function which actually rewards them heavily which helps them build rank to access the better gear available to them in their paid subscription. Granted I don't know much particularly about the game code other than it's a mess but changing point rewards values seems like it should be trivial (minimum time spent on task)

10 minutes ago, XOOM said:

Re-inviting players on Steam to come back for free will be an unlikely situation

This is very disappointing, not that it was a guarantee to bring numbers up, but I'm not sure what else can be done at this point. The population is a problem and is the number one problem.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, jwilly said:

I recognize that the above response was to a particular post, but I'm going out on a limb and assuming that "you" is addressed to the community.

A game that's dumbed-down so far that CRS could entirely automate leadership/facilitation wouldn't be the game many of us are here for. And, many of us recognize that CRS doesn't have the resources to do those functions with employees. So, ideal or not, the community has to do that part of the work.

My respectful suggestion...balancing my understanding that CRS needs every possible subscriber, versus the disruption caused by "negative waves"...would be that CRS simply communicate to those customers who want a different game than CRS is committed to providing, that perhaps they'd be happier elsewhere, and if they want to be here, they should get with the program.

Let me also be clear to say we're not considering dumbing the game down or working towards automation at this time. Our community (as a majority) prefers the freedom of movement and ability to organize based on what they want to do. We have work to be done, particularly to make squads more relevant and awesome again and one of the major intended purposes of 1.36 is to work towards that. So be sure not to take any of my questions as "a statement of fact that we are dumbing down the game," that would be wrong. (over emphasizing this point intentionally)

We all have our own ideas of what should be done and why, we each have our own subset of priorities. So we have to work towards the biggest threats or take aways impacting from game and go from there with an end goal of having maximum positive impact.

But I do hope that the people who have been sitting on the sideline who are quiet decide to step up and speak and make sure their voice is heard. These forums need to get active again and we need to engage in dialogue.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, gt3076r said:

Dude, seriously... read the damn post. I literally said automation and dumbing down the game are no-no's. I've advocated for building game mechanics which incentivize and reward players for doing tasks beneficial to team play. 

Simple example: have MSP's pay out way higher for those spawned to whoever placed it, or manned trucks if that's still a thing. This would be particularly useful if the payout would be higher for new players of low rank. Simple job they can do which is a necessary step for team play and game function which actually rewards them heavily which helps them build rank to access the better gear available to them in their paid subscription. Granted I don't know much particularly about the game code other than it's a mess but changing point rewards values seems like it should be trivial (minimum time spent on task)

This is very disappointing, not that it was a guarantee to bring numbers up, but I'm not sure what else can be done at this point. The population is a problem and is the number one problem.

I'd suggest again that you reflect on providing solutions and direct recommendations by which we can incentivize and reward players for doing tasks which are beneficial to team play. And in that light I'd agree generally speaking, that is something we can and probably should do more of.

Let me point out again that Steam going free, we need to get the new user experience better. We're working on it. Not just the weaponry they can access, but also understanding how to navigate the UI and know where to find quality WWII Online action is.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, XOOM said:

We have updated our basic training and made it mandatory so that new players coming in have a better chance at knowing what to do. 

The basic training teaches a new person next to nothing about WWIIOL as a game. Arguably the only thing it provides is basic navigation of the UI. Players don't really need to learn about controls or what's on the HUD, FPS PC gaming is nothing new. They need to learn about what makes this particular game work.

5 minutes ago, XOOM said:

G3A3 was a player volunteer who recognized that there was a gap in the system and STEPPED UP to fill that role. Same thing can be said about a guy named (Tiger319 I think it was), Aomercy, Gvonpaul, Oldzeke and several other people who decided to take the initiative and do something about it.

Right. I never once argued otherwise. Just trying to point out that players like these are a blessing and an asset to the team, but it is not their responsibility, and as evidenced by several of those names, should not be counted on to always be around and do the job. Develop something that will.

------

 

4 minutes ago, XOOM said:

I'd suggest again that you reflect on providing solutions and direct recommendations by which we can incentivize and reward players for doing tasks which are beneficial to team play. And in that light I'd agree generally speaking, that is something we can and probably should do more of.

.... that's exactly what I did?

At this point I'm gonna have to bow out of the conversation. I don't want to insult your reading comprehension or accuse you of not reading posts, maybe it's my writing, I don't know. But it's clear some points just aren't making it across. I do thank you for your time in responding.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, gt3076r said:

The basic training teaches a new person next to nothing about WWIIOL as a game. Arguably the only thing it provides is basic navigation of the UI. Players don't really need to learn about controls or what's on the HUD, FPS PC gaming is nothing new. They need to learn about what makes this particular game work.

Right. I never once argued otherwise. Just trying to point out that players like these are a blessing and an asset to the team, but it is not their responsibility, and as evidenced by several of those names, should not be counted on to always be around and do the job. Develop something that will.

------

.... that's exactly what I did?

At this point I'm gonna have to bow out of the conversation. I don't want to insult your reading comprehension or accuse you of not reading posts, maybe it's my writing, I don't know. But it's clear some points just aren't making it across. I do thank you for your time in responding.

Regarding training, we have very minimal time by which we can have a user in mandatory training. Continuous optional training would be good, but again, balancing resources. The reason we don't have so much time to train them on "WWIIOL as a game" is because our feedback suggested they'd rather get right to it and get into the action. Like most people, including us males working on projects to build or fix things, the manual goes right out the window and the "I CAN DO THIS" mentality kicks in.

The reason I am responding to you the way I am is to re-affirm that this is a team deal, CRS and the Community is a team. Both sides have to help one another, and for the greater good of the game we're like a family, a very loyal and functional (imperfect) family. This messaging is for other readers as well, and I hope the key points resonate and we maintain the healthy working relationship / family that we have.

Again thanks for your communication it is valuable and I am glad to have at a minimum give you my perspective on these things. Do take note that although we may not agree on stuff, the dialogue is critical and I am willing to talk to anyone in depth who desires to communicate appropriately and respectively, which you did.

S! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In regards to training. @hateract has taken the initiative to utilize the training server for officer training and how to move units etc. 

We have the ability to reset the configuration of the training server to amtch serveral criteria.

I know squads also utilize it quite frequently to test new ideas on tactics etc. 

I would be open to restarting the training corps again if players are interested, the tools they used to the best of my knowledge are already there.

I will say CRS is made up of mostly volunteers (myself included) who already sacrifice their game time to fill out if game needs and roles. I do so because I am a vocal person within the community and feel in order to be this vocal I also need to take ownership and volunteer. That is a choice I make. I don't expect everyone to do the same. 

This game has a huge learning curve which helps create that "moment" @XOOM talks about. I see several squads step up to take players that are willing to learn tactics and comms and guide them through rough patches.

When you see a green tag speak to them, invite them to join you on voice comms. Honestly I think voice comms is the single.most important aspect of this game. You can't develop commradery and friendships as fast without them. They need to be used more.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.