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Ltarflak

Flak 38

29 posts in this topic

Hello Gents! 

I am here today to tell you about the Flakvierling 38. The flakvierling is a quad barrel 20mm AA gun. I would like to see it into the game because it entered service in 1940, what is tier 0?? 1939-1940... there is no reason why it shouldn't be in the game, it could give the ground pounders (such as myself) a little defense against the air quake and the reinforced titanium DB-7's and Havocs...just sayin.

ideas for where you could put em is vast, you could mount them on the back of a half track. Make them portable, like the single barrel 20 we have, or have them AI controlled (AB's,docks,AF's, etc) or even on boats !!

Bundesarchiv Bild 183-J08339, Ausbildung an der Vierlings-Flak.jpgImage result for flakvierling 38Image result for flakvierling 38

                                                                                                                                                                       (on a train ^) 

Image result for flakvierling 38

                                                                                                                                                             

                     

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4x20mm wont harm the db7 much... What we need is this. It might kill the db with a few dozen hits.

12.8_cm_Flakzwilling_40_1.jpg

Edited by vanapo
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We don't have the Flak 38 yet in game as single barrel, going to be hard to make a quad :)

We still use the 1934 Flak 30, when the Flak 38 was accepted into service in 1939, before our war even starts........

So, we need the Flak 38 in game, and should be sooner not later.

Then we can think about the quad Flak 38.

 

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Simply ridiculous the Flak 38 still isn't in game?
 

Was accepted into service in 1939.

Then the Flakverling was created - (4 barrel)

And shortly thereafter (in 1940) the Sd Kfz 7/1 SPAA.

All three of these AA platforms need to be in game, Flak 38, Flakverling, Sd Kfz 7/1; and in tier 0.

 

With the ridiculous flight models (not to mention damage models) of allied aircraft and bombing from 50m above ground - axis needs something to counter.

 

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5 hours ago, delems said:

With the ridiculous flight models (not to mention damage models) of allied aircraft and bombing from 50m above ground

Allied and Axis have exact same arming delay, it's G L O B A L
Meaning same bombing height.
You know this and yet posted that comment anyways?

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12 hours ago, Merlin51 said:

Allied and Axis have exact same arming delay, it's G L O B A L
Meaning same bombing height.
You know this and yet posted that comment anyways?

Nothing about the horrible damage models or the ridiculousness of the agility of the allied bombers? Bombing height is nothing and nitpicking over fusing height is goofy. Nobody has said anything about fixing the plane damage models to fix the real problem. 

Edited by viper69

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Seems the Flak 36/37, 37mm gun was available also in 1940, but not in SPAA form yet.

 

PS1 when the Flak 36/37 artwork going to be complete?

PS2 Also, is our SPAA the Flak 36/37 or 43?  Appears it's the 36/37, not 43; so, an additional SPAA with Flak 43 be nice tier upgrade.

 

Edited by delems

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3 hours ago, viper69 said:

Nobody has said anything about fixing the plane damage models to fix the real problem

It's been mentioned repeatedly, Hatch even went into some detail in regards to it in the ratchat i think ?
I can't do it though, good lord all your planes would be fubar then.
That is Hatch's area of expertise, he is one guy, with currently about 5000 tasks assigned to him.

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We got the Flak 38 in game!

Also reported the Flak 37 artwork is in - but haven't verified as not in spawn list yet.

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On 10/12/2018 at 2:15 PM, viper69 said:

Nothing about the horrible damage models or the ridiculousness of the agility of the allied bombers? Bombing height is nothing and nitpicking over fusing height is goofy. Nobody has said anything about fixing the plane damage models to fix the real problem. 

The a20 was widely known to be essentially a heavy fighter not that much different than the 110 and hopefully soon the ju88. It can pull too many Gs with bombs on board, yes, but that’s a different issue. Even when that issue is fixed, it’ll still fly very well. Just wait for the a20G with a butt load of .50s in the nose and two pointing backwards in a powered turret. 

If you know what you’re doing, its extremely easy to out turn in a 109 if you’re willing to throw away all your energy/speed and leave yourself a sitting duck. Its DM and how many cannons it can take is off too, and also being worked on. 

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On 10/12/2018 at 8:21 PM, delems said:

Seems the Flak 36/37, 37mm gun was available also in 1940, but not in SPAA form yet.

Not entirely correct. It may be true that the Germans hadn't started manufacturing purpose-built, integrated-gun SPAA vehicles yet with that gun. However, in many instances the Germans set a deployed light gun system on the back of a suitable-capacity halftrack or truck, and this amounted to SPAA for all intents and purposes.

sdkfzebay0mb.jpg

The French and English did this as well. The French made air force (CAMle 1930 dual) and naval (CAMle dual and quad) 13.2mm HMG and 25mm naval (CAMle 1939 single and dual) and army (CAMle1940J) dual) autocannon mounts into SPAA by setting them onto suitable trucks and halftracks. The British and (possibly) the French also did so with naval 20mm Oerlikon autocannons on trucks.

Quote

 

an additional SPAA with Flak 43 be nice tier upgrade.

 

Intro in Tier 4, though.

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24 minutes ago, delems said:

We got the Flak 38 in game!

Also reported the Flak 37 artwork is in - but haven't verified as not in spawn list yet.

The Flak 38 currently in game is a placeholder pending substitution for the actual model. While the gun itself (barrel, breech) is visually and mechanically correct the mounting frame, elevation mechanism, gunner position and whatnot differ from the flak 30. 

The Sdkfz 7/2 with the proper Flak 36/37 model is now in game, yes. The gun will eventually be available in the towed version as well, largely replacing the captured Bofors.

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14 minutes ago, Bmbm said:

The gun will eventually be available in the towed version as well, largely replacing the captured Bofors.

The Bofors 4,0 cm was used extensively by the Germans as the FlaK 28. They had guns captured in Poland, newly made Polish guns, and guns captured in Norway...historically of course they also had guns captured from the British in France, from the Belgians in Belgium, and a few French guns, but presumably none of those are game eligible.

I think CRS may find that an accurately modeled FlaK 37 is a very different AA weapon than the FlaK 28/Bofors. The Bofors of course is a continuous fire gun; you track the enemy and keep plunking out shells. The FlaK 37 when accurately modeled is a sharpshooter's gun, with a much higher ROF within a given clip, and a non-continuous shell stream because it was reloaded after the previous clip was exhausted. It was fired ahead of the enemy so they would fly through the shell stream. Not the same shooting skillz. It's possible that if the FlaK 37 functioned in that manner, the removal of the FlaK 28 would disrupt German AA effectiveness, which might be perceived by some as a basis for unequal-sides grousing. Why not just leave the FlaK 28 available for those gunners with transferrable skills from Allied Bofors use?

Edited by jwilly

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AFAIK the German Bofors were rather few, less than 300 iirc, and mainly organized in the KM. I agree sone should be retained in regular brigades but the mainstay should be the flak 36/37.

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AFAIK the German Bofors were rather few, less than 300 iirc, and mainly organized in the KM

Per navweaps.com...in the past a reliable, well-managed secondary source, in this case citing "The Bofors Gun" by Terry J. Gander: 

Germany captured guns from various countries, and manufactured more in Poland, Norway, Belgium and Lithuania.

Some of the guns captured before 1940 were traded to Sweden for other war materials, but after 1940 the "FlaK 28" designation was created and the guns were integrated into the armed forces. 

As of July 1941, the Kriegsmarine had 247 guns in service.

As of March 1942, the Luftwaffe had 615 guns in service.

Across the whole war, the Kriegsmarine had 578 guns installed on ships, and 247 guns installed as coast/harbor/naval-facility-defense weapons.

fe4eeeedf5c6f0cfed44f44be35443d4_zpsndqw

This gun crew appears to me to be Luftwaffe field troops from their insignia.

bofors01_zpshorrs27w.jpg

This photo OTOH is one of many online that show an apparently-Wehrmacht-uniformed FlaK 28. I think this gun is in North Africa, judging by the vegetationless, light-colored expanse of land behind the gun. 

06290-768x567_zpsw2zq9fvv.jpg

The location of this one isn't given, but the crew again appears to be Wehrmacht.

The point of these photos is that FlaK 28 guns were utilized in the field by the Wehrmacht, not just by Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine at air and naval bases and on naval vessels.

 

Edited by jwilly

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20 hours ago, delems said:

We got the Flak 38 in game!

Also reported the Flak 37 artwork is in - but haven't verified as not in spawn list yet.

And still, you've posted no video?
Try the 37 in offline mode, it's fun :)

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4 hours ago, jwilly said:

As of July 1941, the Kriegsmarine had 247 guns in service.

As of March 1942, the Luftwaffe had 615 guns in service.

Across the whole war, the Kriegsmarine had 578 guns installed on ships, and 247 guns installed as coast/harbor/naval-facility-defense weapons.

The location of this one isn't given, but the crew again appears to be Wehrmacht.

The point of these photos is that FlaK 28 guns were utilized in the field by the Wehrmacht, not just by Luftwaffe and Kriegsmarine at air and naval bases and on naval vessels.

Thanks for correcting my memory. I'm arguing that the Bofors was a second-line gun organized by predominantly base troops in fixed locations, protecting ports, waterways and airfield installations. So I'd be fine with giving an extra allotment to KM and LW brigades for that reason.

The Flak 36/3743 however was arguably the Heer mainstay with over 20,000 produced, so in any case the Flak 37 to Bofors ratio should be 20:1.

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I would keep the Bofors in since it has already been modelled but adjust the ratios to be more in line with history. As was said completely removing it will just give extra ammo to the CRS is side biased for X,Y,Z reason crowd.

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Well that crowd needs to be shut down with clear posts and server messages that communicate why something is changing. Not changing something because some will complain is not the way to push forward. In this cause, I’d be fine with the Flak 28 being moved to air and navy flags only, and or in the very small ratios for army flags as explained by BMBM. I like the idea of captured equipment being available, but in realistic ratios. 

Glad to see progress is being made here, keep it up! S! 

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I recall umpteen trillion posts calling for Germany to get its rightful Flak 37 instead of the POS Bofors placeholder damn you CRS and your offspring... now that we've got it modelled (and with a towed one in progress), the shoe is on the other foot? LOL <shrug>

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So i tried the new gun offline ... honestly i didnt shoot at any planes so its tough to tell but certain shots are going to be impossible compared to the ring site of the bofors that gives a much larger FoV. fast crossing shots specifically.

i'll presume its correct, i honestly don't know, but it felt pretty constrained FoV wise. it'll be a great infantry sniper for sure lol ;-). RoF felt great, the look of it again - looks great. i will try it online once it's available to see how that site functions against in game traffic. guessing that site is based on a RL predictor site? can i get a link to read more about it? kinda reminds me a bit of the camle site which - man haven't used in forever but i've shot stuff down with it so idk. can't wait to try it live.

 

*edit* from my reading just now - FlakVisier 37 is the site?

http://2www.lonesentry.com/manuals/tme30/ch7sec4sub7.html

would be nice to be able to make adjustments to the sight so we wouldn't need to always self predict. presumably lots more important things though.

Quote

(f) Flakvisier 37 (43). This Flakvisier is a mechanical computing sight used with the 3.7 cm Flak 37. When used with the 3.7 cm Flak 43, it is known as Flakvisier 43. Computation for deflections is based upon the angular rates of quadrant elevation and azimuth. Ranges are estimated or obtained from a separate source, and are set into the sight by hand. A clock-work motor drives three disc and wheel mechanisms which perform the multiplications necessary in the computation of deflections. Uni-directional drives from the elevating and traversing mechanisms rewind the clock motor. In operation, the necessary deflection is obtained by mechanically offsetting the cross hairs of the reticle of a one-power telescope. Provision is incorporated for corrections for superelevation and temperature changes. The sight is of compact box-shaped construction, approximately 10 inches by 9 inches by 4 1/2 inches in size and 23 pounds in weight. It is fitted to the sight bar of the gun by a suspension bracket and lug.

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44 minutes ago, madrebel said:

would be nice to be able to make adjustments to the sight so we wouldn't need to always self predict. presumably lots more important things though.

I would have liked to give it that function, but it isn't one that exists at present.
Can do range, but not windage, that is something we would have to have dev look into in the future.

Very nifty sight in real life, even though a full recreation would probably be too complicated for gameplay.
We'd be like polycrewing the gun sight for the gunner :)
That would be a riot, specially if we got potthead in the crew.

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What are the ammo types for the 37mm? In Warthunder the Ostwind can be a tank assassin.

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actually didnt look to see if there was any AP all i saw was HE. this gun is in the same family as the BK3.7 as on the Ju87G2 though.

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