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ZEBBEEE

Proximity-based AO: giving back map freedom

69 posts in this topic

A master at the hc game and a longtime lowpop vet in our squad heard about the changes in 1.36 and was a bit upset about the loss of strategy/changes...but to be fair this guy would show up for a few maps and play/map oic nonstop for long stretches then burnout and leave for long stretches...so now that the burden of the map doesn’t have to be on his shoulders for 8-10 hours why is he complaining when that burden would make him curse the game and leave?

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1 hour ago, Jsilec said:

A master at the hc game and a longtime lowpop vet in our squad heard about the changes in 1.36 and was a bit upset about the loss of strategy/changes...but to be fair this guy would show up for a few maps and play/map oic nonstop for long stretches then burnout and leave for long stretches...so now that the burden of the map doesn’t have to be on his shoulders for 8-10 hours why is he complaining when that burden would make him curse the game and leave?

It's fun to do if the burden is shared.  He'd never burn out if there were enough guys like him.  He probably didn't mind those 8-10 hour map stints.  In fact he probably enjoyed them. 

 

But he probably minded that he had to do them 8 days a week.  That's what causes burnout.  

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It was darthmarty he said he coming back to roll with us after seeig my post end up on ww2ol Facebook haha

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If only xoom would send out the dam email to my inactive guys we could see gassault/unslim/ce and a bunch more of the old guard hint hint

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5 hours ago, Capco said:

It's fun to do if the burden is shared.  He'd never burn out if there were enough guys like him.  He probably didn't mind those 8-10 hour map stints.  In fact he probably enjoyed them.

But he probably minded that he had to do them 8 days a week.  That's what causes burnout.  

Honestly I don't buy that for a second. Everyone burns out on HC... its just too much work and dealing with the craziness of the playerbase takes its toll. I think its telling that if you look at the list of past CinC very few of them maintain an active subscription anymore... much less participate in HC.

And the CinCs were the most hardcore/dedicated within the HC structure and were able to deal with the nonsense that come with it better than most. The vast majority of KG commanders, and even Army commanders would call it quits after a few months, few lasted a year or more. Thats why the whole HC system imploded eventually. It was essentially a gigantic revolving door that relied on large numbers of new players cycling in to replace those guys dropping out and amongst the pile you would fine the crazy few (saying that in a good way BTW) who we're able to stick through it all to get to the upper levels. When that influx dried up... well, we know what happened.

I'm in the Luftwaffe HC but since we are so understaffed I do ground work essentially 99% of the time, and especially now where we don't have set AOs (compared to the old days) it is exhausting to try to keep track of the entire map all at once. There are simply too many objectives to keep track of to do a truly effective job; 1.36 made it MUCH easier, but without squads its up to the shoulders of HC to still do a lot of the heavy lifting to set up attacks and sustain them with FMS and do generally leadership duties.

EDIT: And lets also not forget that many in the HC are also pulling double duty doing a ton of work with their squads as well.

Edited by aismov
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On 5/9/2019 at 0:50 AM, kazee said:

During a proximity AO setup, 15-20 guys move into Namur from Eghezee, spring the AO. Attack for 60 mins draining all Eghezee supply. GHC calls for the attacking group to stop because Eghezee has no supply with to defend if AHC places AO on Eghezee from Jodo. AHC places AO, Eghezee falls in 15 mins because there is no supply to defend. 

Thats a problem, a serious problem not because of the Eghezee being capped but because you have tension and major disagreements between the pb and HCs. People will quit playing and this would just become a mob mentality game without the best features we currently have now.

I'm surprised you are saying this since your join date is 2001... and we played this game for 5 years with no AOs or effectively any HC tools outside of a HC Forum, HC-affiliated squads, and the .Axis/.Allied chat command.

Somehow we managed to police ourselves and manage supply just fine. Yes, towns did fall because players used up too much supply. But towns have fall from innumerable HC and non-HC reasons... that will always be a fact of the game. I tend to be personally more skeptical at the idea of HC superiority vis-a-vis the playerbase. If anything if a fight is going nowhere, players will abandon it sooner rather than later and often it is battlefield leaders or HC pushing people on to stick with it. Personally I vote for the mob, becayse at the end of the day it is actually two competing mobs, and no matter what, each mob wants to win and will learn to adapt and improve themselves. With the HC leash-and-collar system players have no incentive to learn these things and just follow where the Red Boxes are set.

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3 hours ago, aismov said:

I'm surprised you are saying this since your join date is 2001... and we played this game for 5 years with no AOs or effectively any HC tools outside of a HC Forum, HC-affiliated squads, and the .Axis/.Allied chat command.

Your memory is highly fuzzy.  AOs came in the winter of 2004, along with RDP bombing AWS alerts (originally a plane next to towns), RDP bombing limits cause of the IIIH bombing screaming, and MSPs.  So 3.5 years, tops.

Originally 3 AOs 24/7, on a much smaller map.

 

AOs came first, game froze cause people couldn't get there cause it was original truck driving only, then MSPs came out right before Christmas.

Edited by Kilemall

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3 hours ago, aismov said:

I'm surprised you are saying this since your join date is 2001... and we played this game for 5 years with no AOs or effectively any HC tools outside of a HC Forum, HC-affiliated squads, and the .Axis/.Allied chat command.

Somehow we managed to police ourselves and manage supply just fine. Yes, towns did fall because players used up too much supply. But towns have fall from innumerable HC and non-HC reasons... that will always be a fact of the game. I tend to be personally more skeptical at the idea of HC superiority vis-a-vis the playerbase. If anything if a fight is going nowhere, players will abandon it sooner rather than later and often it is battlefield leaders or HC pushing people on to stick with it. Personally I vote for the mob, becayse at the end of the day it is actually two competing mobs, and no matter what, each mob wants to win and will learn to adapt and improve themselves. With the HC leash-and-collar system players have no incentive to learn these things and just follow where the Red Boxes are set.

S! Aismov,

Yes I hear what you are saying about prior to AOs, however the game was much more boring then. During 02-04 I would usually be stationed in Andenne and along the Meuse valley waiting costless hours for 3CD to show up. I would guard towns hours on end to try and defend the areas I was assigned to...and imho it was much more boring then. The battles were still great, but I will take the game setup now over what we had back then any day of the week.

Everyone has their own opinions on gameplay and I respect that, its just my thoughts are right now the game seems to be doing great. Excellent battles, a lot of towns being capped every 24 hours, some great counter attacks, supply is something we are all concerned about, factory bombing is back etc etc. so why make a drastic change when 1.36 has only been out for a couple weeks

Like I said prior to beta and 1.36 release i was for prox aos, but i really like the gameplay and setup now and just wish we would let it breath a bit and see what develops before we make another major change

4 hours ago, aismov said:

Personally I vote for the mob,

Even with HC we still have alot of this. I am still complaining and still abit dumbfounded and timing of ao placements and aos selection in general but I will roll with it for now. 

An example would be: less than 24 hours ago axis were attacking Dun from the north at Stenay. We placed the ao once again too early allowed the allied defenders to gain control of the north bridge (town bridge was down) they moved into the north fb from the north rr bridge and kicked our [censored] before we even had a chance to get a foothold in town. We should have gained control of that bridge with fms, at guns and couple pzs then placed the AO. Will mob do this stuff ? Should HC see it or know it before AO placement ? My guess is yes to both however, it should be a role of HC to direct a small portion of the mob to control that bridge and then we move into town.

That the direction and wish I have for this game...a group effort by both

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On 11/05/2019 at 4:13 AM, Kilemall said:

Your memory is highly fuzzy.  AOs came in the winter of 2004, along with RDP bombing AWS alerts (originally a plane next to towns), RDP bombing limits cause of the IIIH bombing screaming, and MSPs.  So 3.5 years, tops.

Originally 3 AOs 24/7, on a much smaller map.

 

AOs came first, game froze cause people couldn't get there cause it was original truck driving only, then MSPs came out right before Christmas.

 2005 was the Annus horribilis as the average daily sorties dropped by 30% compared to 2004:

- AOs decreased squad initiatives 

- depots decreased massive columns, fear of death and combined arms close coordination 

From 2005 little new squads were created.

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On 5/11/2019 at 2:57 AM, ZEBBEEE said:

Actually no, MPS (manned trucks) came in May 2016, 1.5 years after AOs and depots spawning. 2015 was the Annus horribilis for attackers and the average daily sorties dropped by 30% compared to 2004:

- AOs decreased squad initiatives 

- depots decreased massive columns, fear of death and combined arms close coordination 

From 2005 little new squads were created.

I won't argue the opinion on squads, but you utterly have this wrong, I was there and all of it affected operations intensely.  It was manned truck spawns originally, then UMS a little later, but AO predated the trucks by only a few months.

Attacks came to a standstill with AOs, the concentration was too great and it was too easy to gun down poor trucks trying to physically drive in infantry, and armor battles were short and sharp. 

When I say stopped I mean stopped- virtually NO towns got taken in a 2 month period, which is different from 'it's tough' to 'it didn't happen'.

Only when the truck spawns came at Christmas was offense restored, and the Axis went to town with it- which I predicted to the AHC commanders, because Allied players and squads were clearly a step behind on average to the 'best practices' Axis command and squads took especially to capture matters.

It's very important, at least to me, to get this sort of detail correct so we can derive the right conclusions about what happened and what is likely to happen with other changes.  Some things are surprises, but most things that are readily done have been tried, have to sort out the strings though as each change happens in a matrice of rules, numbers, modeling, culture, spawning, capturing and supply.

 

Do you mean 2005 and 2006 instead of 2015 and 2016?

 

 

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Kilemall is correct.
The AO's came, and they did help with concentration as opposed to random stuff strobe lighting up and down the lines faster than you could even
think about a reaction, but no mobile spawn trucks came with it at first, and with the heavier concentration, the life of the truck driver and passengers became very short
You would lose the truck and the 10 or 20 guys on board and you had to start resorting to dropping them very far away, and you could simply not get enough concentration
of infantry into the AO to have much of a skirmish, because the trucks had to run back and forth in a constant fashion they became very vulnerable with the heavier people
concentration, and being the trucks had live infantry on board, each one down was an even bigger loss.
You needed a very large amount of successful live truck drops or there was simply no fight outside of the tank battle, and the odds of having any kind of steady amount
of those was very poor in the higher battlefield concentration of people, you stood a better chance of walking all the way from the FB.

You just could not enforce enough zone of control to maintain a steady stream of trucks, and the guys volunteering to drive the trucks, were getting heavily
burnt out on playing a 4 hour game session that tallied up to 200 deaths and nothing to show for it.
You just could not move anything unless it was zombie time and pop was real low.

And the defenders infantry players were not thrilled either, they would spawn in, but the only things that would survive to get near town were armored units
and they cant skirmish with those, so they would wind up sitting around watching tanks shoot at each other and flipping coins to see whose turn it was to shoot
the next lone EI who tried taking the long walk.

Tanks did try to help with the shuttling of infantry, but infantry are easily sprayed off the side of tanks and so were not terribly effective at bringing them into the fighting area

The trucks worked at first, simply because the lines were chaos, and concentration was a rarity, usually the result of a large squad op.
You normally stood a good chance of hot dropping right in town or very close to it, but after chaos evolved to AO and concentration, not so much
And the evolution of mobile spawns came quickly after because the impact of the player concentration was very dramatic.

I can not remember now if we got a truck spawn or the .msp command 1st, but we got something quick because things were not going to survive for long
otherwise, Kilemall is not exaggerating when he says the game simply did not move, we had lots of big armored engagements, with very little infantry involvement.
It was during that time, that you would see axis and allied people cooperatively set up otherwise pointless infantry skirmishes out between fbs in some fields or forest areas
just to have some kind of infantry thing going on that you could actually get the infantry to.
And there were rules, you did not kill the trucks, and no tanks, but ultimately someone would find out and bring a tank and end it.
That would not have survived 1.5 years of campaigns.

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36 minutes ago, Merlin51 said:

Kilemall is not exaggerating when he says the game simply did not move, we had lots of big armored engagements, with very little infantry involvement.
It was during that time, that you would see axis and allied people cooperatively set up otherwise pointless infantry skirmishes out between fbs in some fields or forest areas
just to have some kind of infantry thing going on that you could actually get the infantry to.
And there were rules, you did not kill the trucks, and no tanks, but ultimately someone would find out and bring a tank and end it.
That would not have survived 1.5 years of campaigns.

Somehow through the mists of time, those pointless infantry skirmishes seemed exciting at the time. I remember my main role was sitting in the truck (later ms) hidden behind an edge of the 'hard forest' describing the crowded action in chat like it was a massive pond hockey game gone wild with rifles and grenades. 

 

2 hours ago, Kilemall said:

 

It's very important, at least to me, to get this sort of detail correct so we can derive the right conclusions about what happened and what is likely to happen with other changes.  Some things are surprises, but most things that are readily done have been tried, have to sort out the strings though as each change happens in a matrice of rules, numbers, modeling, culture, spawning, capturing and supply.

 

+10/

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5 hours ago, sorella said:

Somehow through the mists of time, those pointless infantry skirmishes seemed exciting at the time. I remember my main role was sitting in the truck (later ms) hidden behind an edge of the 'hard forest' describing the crowded action in chat like it was a massive pond hockey game gone wild with rifles and grenades. 

At the time, they were.
For that short but memorable period of time, it was kind of the only way infantry on both sides could come and face each other.

Looking back, in a way is was kind of surreal.
Here I am, in a truck, watching enemy infantry run past me, saying "Hi guys, have fun storming the castle"
And though they could not understand, they would happily respond in area chat, and hurry on to the skirmish.
Or parking right beside an enemy truck and waggling our doors at each other in between runs.

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11 hours ago, Kilemall said:

I won't argue the opinion on squads, but you utterly have this wrong, I was there and all of it affected operations intensely.  It was manned truck spawns originally, then UMS a little later, but AO predated the trucks by only a few months.

Attacks came to a standstill with AOs, the concentration was too great and it was too easy to gun down poor trucks trying to physically drive in infantry, and armor battles were short and sharp. 

When I say stopped I mean stopped- virtually NO towns got taken in a 2 month period, which is different from 'it's tough' to 'it didn't happen'.

Only when the truck spawns came at Christmas was offense restored, and the Axis went to town with it- which I predicted to the AHC commanders, because Allied players and squads were clearly a step behind on average to the 'best practices' Axis command and squads took especially to capture matters.

It's very important, at least to me, to get this sort of detail correct so we can derive the right conclusions about what happened and what is likely to happen with other changes.  Some things are surprises, but most things that are readily done have been tried, have to sort out the strings though as each change happens in a matrice of rules, numbers, modeling, culture, spawning, capturing and supply.

 

Do you mean 2005 and 2006 instead of 2015 and 2016?

 

 

Good catch, I checked the readme and you stand correct, The manned truck was available with 1.18 at Christmas of 2004, in 2006 we had unmanned mobile spawns. (Yes I meant 2005 and 2006 btw)

I remind the still-stand and thought it had lasted much longer. Still, 2005 sorties drastically dropped by about 30% despite AO and mobile spawns. So their consequences might be considered as a failure and still affect our fundamental game play today.

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15 hours ago, ZEBBEEE said:

Good catch, I checked the readme and you stand correct, The manned truck was available with 1.18 at Christmas of 2004, in 2006 we had unmanned mobile spawns. (Yes I meant 2005 and 2006 btw)

I remind the still-stand and thought it had lasted much longer. Still, 2005 sorties drastically dropped by about 30% despite AO and mobile spawns. So their consequences might be considered as a failure and still affect our fundamental game play today.

I would argue that the iron rule of 3 AOs had a lot to do with it, couldn't get less, but also couldn't get more, and many regular and squad nights would easily exceed that much crowding.  That's when who was friends with who between squads and HC making the call could get political and bitter if you did not have a very skilled fair person in command.

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Need proximity AOs so squads have a reason to build and for players to want to attack. (ok, and insane capture timers changed)

And no limit, if say 10 players need for AO, and only 40 online; and they each split 10 to an AO - then there needs to be 4 AOs.

Course, no one will be on defense then.

Then dump FBs and make player built ones - FBs are another huge barrier to action in game.

 

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Give squads their own flag - they move, they spawn, they control.

Then, design reward system so that squads that do good, get some type of bonus - extra rifle in supply?   RDP timer cut in half for 1 hour?

Give play back to players.

 

We seem stuck in middle, HC has few flags, but squads can't initiate action.

 

I find it odd many bridge AOs set...... but they not even bombed?  How come air squads don't log on and say.. hmm I see bridge AO, we better bomb it?

Where is squad initiative?

Edited by delems

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so axis took Tienen at 1:34 US EST

then they took Seachault at 1:38 US EST

poor thomboi is the only HC online, and he's navy

everyone wants to keep rolling but now everything has come to a stop

so at this point quality of gameplay is not the only reason for prox-based AOs, but maintaining functionality of the server

so much of the game is bottom-up, we should be able to keep things rolling especially since the entire map has supplies now

6FN9N5t.jpg

and the server promptly went from 2 AOs to 1 AO after we capped Seachault, so map movement is being throttled by the AO quantity no need to be concerned about it moving too fast with prox AOs

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another situation just now where some kind of prox AO would be very beneficial to map activity:

axis just captured Bohain after a big battle

30+ axis tags in Bohain

allies have no EWS on either of their AOs, Le Catlet and Gravenpolder (partly because we have several axis players watching FBs and stopping efforts to get FBs)

allies might have placed a FMS just north of Bohain before the town was captured, they still have EWS and some stragglers on Bohain

if AOs were started by player presence allies would have a near-immediate counterattack on Bohain where players were just fighting instead of two dead AOs

and instead of determining which of their AOs to pull, then waiting on timers to pull and place AHC would just focus on getting players to spawn from a FB or FMS and push on Bohain

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