blakeh

No spawn delay

91 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, delems said:

*** the more people you have on, the most likely you will have more TOM?

Yes, of course.  I'm saying there has never been a 24% differential in TOM, that I have ever seen, in fact, it rarely reaches 10%

 

*** allies are having great fun in holding the line

Nah, I'm saying something must be working right that the map hasn't resulted in a roll already.

That doesn't imply anyone having fun or not.

 

So I’m inferring that you believe a game whereby a significant proportion of the players are unhappy can be said to be ‘working’

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5 minutes ago, Silky said:

So I’m inferring that you believe a game whereby a significant proportion of the players are unhappy can be said to be ‘working’

He means that the balance mechanisms are working to prevent a map roll.  I don't think he means the "game" itself is working and healthy (because its not...).  

 

The balance mechanisms are not designed to make losing more fun.  They are designed to make losing suck less.  

 

In fact, I have yet to play a competitive game where the balance mechanisms are such that I am always having fun when I'm losing, and/or never care that I am losing.  

 

I'm not sure why the map hasn't rolled faster (maybe the overall pop is THAT low?), but delems is right that 24% TOM advantage is enormous. 

 

It's also possible that the recent change to the F2P accounts to prevent them from setting FMS has led to a net decrease in the total amount of FMS set. 

 

If no FMS = no successful attacks, then it follows that fewer FMS = fewer successful attacks.  I still am not a big fan of this idea at all @XOOM.  

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1 minute ago, Capco said:

He means that the balance mechanisms are working to prevent a map roll.  I don't think he means the "game" itself is working and healthy (because its not...).  

 

The balance mechanisms are not designed to make losing more fun.  They are designed to make losing suck less.  

 

In fact, I have yet to play a competitive game where the balance mechanisms are such that I am always having fun when I'm losing, and/or never care that I am losing.  

 

I'm not sure why the map hasn't rolled faster (maybe the overall pop is THAT low?), but delems is right that 24% TOM advantage is enormous. 

 

It's also possible that the recent change to the F2P accounts to prevent them from setting FMS has led to a net decrease in the total amount of FMS set. 

 

If no FMS = no successful attacks, then it follows that fewer FMS = fewer successful attacks.  I still am not a big fan of this idea at all @XOOM.  

My take is that pretty much all of Euro TZ is one AO. TOES doesn’t create adrenaline moments (exhilaration and its bleak partner, desolation) when everything is throttled down to a single AO. 

If the second AO threshold were a few players less, this map would be rolling, trust me. 

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First, never bring SD back again - far better w/o imo.

Second, exactly, didn't say they having fun, said map mechanics have it so we can't roll map; even with a 24% TOM difference and no SD - that is unheard of.  Map would be long over w/o the severe capping restrictions.

Third, we've had 1 AO for years - so that has nothing to do with it.

It is almost so you can't win w/o severe over pop now. (and no SD)
 

Maybe we should have 2 AOs all day so map can move more?

 

Edited by delems
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6 minutes ago, delems said:

First, never bring SD back again - far better w/o imo.

Second, exactly, didn't say they having fun, said map mechanics have it so we can't roll map; even with a 24% TOM difference and no SD - that is unheard of.  Map would be long over w/o the severe capping restrictions.

Third, we've had 1 AO for years - so that has nothing to do with it.

It is almost so you can't win w/o severe over pop now. (and no SD)
 

Maybe we should have 2 AOs all day so map can move more?

 

I play almost exclusively Euro TZ and having solid 1 AO is a fairly new landscape 

The trouble with increasing to two AOs without the population to sustain it will see map rolls and create an unplayable game imo 

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I can't believe, after years of telling us to get rid of spawn delay, we're now seeing players demand it to come back. Herein lies the difficulty we have at CRS with managing WWII Online player expectations. Just thought I'd point this out as a good opportunity for a learning moment.

Officially...

We have no update to provide in terms of our go-forward plan with spawn delay. We also don't want to see a knee jerk reaction to something that has been long demanded by the majority of the player base. Not sure we have enough results to make any sort of conclusion just yet. The balancing capturing was fully intended to work towards removal of spawn delay to get players into the game faster.

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1 hour ago, dropbear said:

delems have you tried a full game session playing allied? A few days?

Not in any attempt to be disrespectful or ruffle feathers, though anything I say is scrutinized substantially more so than my fellow colleagues... I think we need more time to assess. The current Campaign's status cannot be contributed singularly to the removal of spawn delay. I believe it is being used as a crutch or means to justify the current Campaign state. 

I'll say again, I mean that most respectfully and in the most matter of fact way possible, not intended to insinuate anything other than what was stated.

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25 minutes ago, XOOM said:

I can't believe, after years of telling us to get rid of spawn delay, we're now seeing players demand it to come back. Herein lies the difficulty we have at CRS with managing WWII Online player expectations. Just thought I'd point this out as a good opportunity for a learning moment.

Officially...

We have no update to provide in terms of our go-forward plan with spawn delay. We also don't want to see a knee jerk reaction to something that has been long demanded by the majority of the player base. Not sure we have enough results to make any sort of conclusion just yet. The balancing capturing was fully intended to work towards removal of spawn delay to get players into the game faster.

Just in case you only glossed over my post, I wasn't saying I don't agree with removing SD (I was a proponent of it and still am until the data says otherwise).  

 

What I don't agree with is removing FMS ability from F2P players.  It's very unfortunate that creating an FMS is tied to using a truck (because I'm fairly certain that's why you are restricting it).  Like I said, it's pretty obvious that fewer FMS per campaign means less action overall.  You should be doing all you can to maximize FMS placement, not minimize it.  

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8 minutes ago, Capco said:

What I don't agree with is removing FMS ability from F2P players.  It's very unfortunate that creating an FMS is tied to using a truck (because I'm fairly certain that's why you are restricting it).  Like I said, it's pretty obvious that fewer FMS per campaign means less action overall.  You should be doing all you can to maximize FMS placement, not minimize it.  

Well, in fairness, they can grab a 1 time DLC and have a truck eternally
7 bucks
https://store.steampowered.com/app/936710/Recruit_Pack/

 

ABOUT THIS CONTENT

Become a Recruit and gain access to the following vehicles and weapons:
 

  • M1928 Thompson SMG (Reserve)
  • M1A1 Thompson SMG (Reserve)
  • Sten Mk II SMG (Reserve)
  • M3A1 Grease Gun SMG (Reserve)
  • Mas38 SMG (Reserve)
  • Beretta SMG (Reserve)
  • MP40 SMG (Reserve)
  • Fairmile B Patrol Ship (Royal Navy, French Navy, Kriegsmarine)
  • Opel Blitz (German Truck)
  • Laffly S-20 (French Truck)
  • Bedford Truck (US & British Truck)


Reserve Submachine Guns provide base level access to the submachine gun class. They are equipped with 4 magazines of ammo, a grenade, and a knife.

Trucks are capable of transporting infantry, re-supplying any ground unit, and towing small anti-tank and anti-aircraft guns.

The Fairmile B patrol ship fits within the rivers across the game map. You can load infantry and transport them. It has a 2 Pounder anti-tank gun on the bow (front). It also has several machine guns. It also has a single and double barrel anti-aircraft gun that fires a devastating high-explosive round capable of shooting aircraft down, blowing up trucks and eliminating enemy personnel (infantry).

 

Edited by merlin51

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33 minutes ago, merlin51 said:

Well, in fairness, they can grab a 1 time DLC and have a truck eternally
7 bucks
https://store.steampowered.com/app/936710/Recruit_Pack/

 

ABOUT THIS CONTENT

Become a Recruit and gain access to the following vehicles and weapons:
 

  • M1928 Thompson SMG (Reserve)
  • M1A1 Thompson SMG (Reserve)
  • Sten Mk II SMG (Reserve)
  • M3A1 Grease Gun SMG (Reserve)
  • Mas38 SMG (Reserve)
  • Beretta SMG (Reserve)
  • MP40 SMG (Reserve)
  • Fairmile B Patrol Ship (Royal Navy, French Navy, Kriegsmarine)
  • Opel Blitz (German Truck)
  • Laffly S-20 (French Truck)
  • Bedford Truck (US & British Truck)


Reserve Submachine Guns provide base level access to the submachine gun class. They are equipped with 4 magazines of ammo, a grenade, and a knife.

Trucks are capable of transporting infantry, re-supplying any ground unit, and towing small anti-tank and anti-aircraft guns.

The Fairmile B patrol ship fits within the rivers across the game map. You can load infantry and transport them. It has a 2 Pounder anti-tank gun on the bow (front). It also has several machine guns. It also has a single and double barrel anti-aircraft gun that fires a devastating high-explosive round capable of shooting aircraft down, blowing up trucks and eliminating enemy personnel (infantry).

 

Just the simple fact that the Truck part of this advertisement says NOTHING about FMS usage just goes to show how little you understand your game sometimes...  

 

It is the single most important object in the game.  Nothing else even comes close.

Edited by Capco
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1 hour ago, XOOM said:

I can't believe, after years of telling us to get rid of spawn delay, we're now seeing players demand it to come back. Herein lies the difficulty we have at CRS with managing WWII Online player expectations. Just thought I'd point this out as a good opportunity for a learning moment.

Officially...

We have no update to provide in terms of our go-forward plan with spawn delay. We also don't want to see a knee jerk reaction to something that has been long demanded by the majority of the player base. Not sure we have enough results to make any sort of conclusion just yet. The balancing capturing was fully intended to work towards removal of spawn delay to get players into the game faster.

thx for the comment and directness. don't let your heads explode at CRS. take the time and analysis required to gather more data and feedback. 

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2 hours ago, Capco said:

Just the simple fact that the Truck part of this advertisement says NOTHING about FMS usage just goes to show how little you understand your game sometimes...  

 

It is the single most important object in the game.  Nothing else even comes close.

FMS is simply a truck function, it's a PPO
so if you are a truck, you can make an FMS

Probably could use a mention in the ad copy since if you never used a truck before, you might not know it.

I dont have anything to do with advertising, I couldn't sell Jesus to a Nun  but i'll bring it up to @XOOM 

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4 hours ago, Capco said:

Just the simple fact that the Truck part of this advertisement says NOTHING about FMS usage just goes to show how little you understand your game sometimes...  

It is the single most important object in the game.  Nothing else even comes close.

Easy there Capco. We did add it as one of the slides. I have updated the text: https://store.steampowered.com/app/936710/Recruit_Pack/ 

Stay positive man. S! 

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2 minutes ago, merlin51 said:

Even i missed it Capco

ss_cb92ff11e10fbc1e9062ea64d38f82d3f1465

wait. is this why there are so many FMS next to AB Barracks recently?

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22 minutes ago, sorella said:

wait. is this why there are so many FMS next to AB Barracks recently?

That is possible if it's a defensive FMS and there are no enemy facilities captured nearby, yes. PPOs typically review nearby terrain objects and have certain rules, and it also pertains to distance to an enemy facility.

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I’d be ok with testing two AOs at all times. Personally, movement is ok and should be encouraged if players are pushing successful attacks. I don’t quite understand the drive to prevent movement as defeating the enemy and taking ground is the objective. In my opinion, keep the spawn delay and look at result based delay in the future (KIA/MIA results in spawn delay, based on unit type). But that is another discussion. 

Keep up the good work CRS, 

(Edit: To be clear I am not in favour of a two AO option if there are very little players online as the objective shouldn’t be to create 5 people looking for 3 across a massive map. Single AO would have to stay in for very low points of global population) 

Edited by raptor34
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1 hour ago, sorella said:

wait. is this why there are so many FMS next to AB Barracks recently?

Also, if a FMS is placed, and the situation changes, like you have an FMS next to a depot you own, and the situation changes, like you lose the depot, as long as the FMS's supply line is intact, it does not get removed.

If FMS came from the lost depot, then its toast of course.
 

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I think Axis often have really big overpop this map and allies doing ok with that in mind. I very much doubt the map would look any different with SD.  I think the variable cap timers are great(only minus are the buffers, should be instant change) and the spawn delay should be gone for good. You have to remember Allieds often had overpop during euro daytime too. What's frustrating is that you don't have any successes if you lose. At one point we were defending Lokeren FB with 5 and we were searching for efms for an hour, it was 2k out, when we found it and engaged the enemy, it was fun, then HC, moved out of Lok, and that was it. First of all, we still had two ABs Gent, and a big town is hard to take, and the whole point of holding lok-wett was to attack wett and distract them, we we're about to build FMS to Wett too. (we held Gent btw) The point is, and that was true for yesterdays Berlaimont battle as well: we were holding, we had a micro success and we didn't care that we were losing on other fronts. I think making the strategic layer of the game inaccessible for the average players was wrong on many levels. The obvious one is nowadays that no HC is on often and the game is blocked. You could also monetize it. Introduce special supply truck DLCs for inf and armor, that way noobs or strategic people could influence supply. I also tend to proximity and squad AOs, but i also think this could help the overpop side even more. But it's hard to imagine that this kind of giving back power to the players and squads is not the right way. Maybe distinguish between Main AO and side AOs(which has handicaps). The one obvious giveaway, that players want to do strategic stuff on the map,  is how many players would blow non AO related FBs, which in my opinion is a waste but ok.

 

TL,DR

Cap timers are enough, map wouldn't look different with SD. Allied had overpop too.

There is too few possibilities to have small successes even if you lose. More power to players.

Edited by ebert100

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8 hours ago, XOOM said:

Not in any attempt to be disrespectful or ruffle feathers, though anything I say is scrutinized substantially more so than my fellow colleagues... I think we need more time to assess. The current Campaign's status cannot be contributed singularly to the removal of spawn delay. I believe it is being used as a crutch or means to justify the current Campaign state. 

I'll say again, I mean that most respectfully and in the most matter of fact way possible, not intended to insinuate anything other than what was stated.

@XOOM no disrespect intended but have you actually played allied for an extended period of time? Has any CRS representative  played allied for an extended period? And no I am not talking about AFK CRS reps. Remember, if a new player sees a guy in capital letters in game he or she will instinctively follow them.

Cos everytime allies are getting rolled before I log myself out to prevent any perception of cheating,  I log my f2p account in axis and constantly see 4 to 1 and more odds against us., but most importantly CRS REPS playing axis..making axis calls.,guarding CPs and bunkers. What does that say to a new recruit? The devs are playing one side and not another.

What sort of balancing system do you have in mind, if you want to remove SD??

I am calling bull[censored] on requiring "more data" before deciding...exactly what are you needing??

One side is totally overpopulated and the other side is getting rolled (albeit slowly because of your "fix" of much longer cap times.

 

NEWS FLASH - TIMERS DON'T MEAN ANYTHING IF THE UNDERPOP SIDE CANNOT GET TO THE CP!!

 

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We're kind of missing the point. The reason this map hasn't rolled is a single AO is now the norm. Attacks can be repulsed - and these can provide some great gameplay, but the single AO population threshold is currently the mechanism propping up the campaign map and counter-balancing the removal of SD. 

To test would be to lower the 2nd AO threshold. Within the first few hours, there'd be map catastrophe

 

And I guess I agree with @delems on this point. The campaign is not falling apart, despite the removal of SD. But I would suggest it's one AO that's achieving this.

 

The problem for the game is that one AO does get a little stagnant, and allows for cute HC to game the system, as we've seen with the various AO-avoidance drama incidents recently.

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I would drastically reduce or remove the contested-to-AB-hot timer for the underpop side as well as cap timers themselves

 

The first time an overpop side lost units bounced off the line because of complacency would be interesting

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