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XOOM

How can we get beyond pure negativity in the forums?

206 posts in this topic

2 hours ago, sgthenning said:

Until stuff starts getting fixed probably not going to happen. When you do fix something in this game it breaks something else. Which creates more gripes. Need to also stop catering to every allied whim. Every time allies cry fowl their stuff gets fixed immediately while Axis stuff seems to get put on the back burner. Last time I asked a rat why this is he said its easier to fix the allied stuff. Well that's not good enough so Axis stuff that's broke will never get fixed. Axis bombs wont kill inf only damages them. Axis HE is all Broke except for the Destroyers bombs are broke Motors broke and grenade rifles broke. Damage Mod on Allied air still isn't fixed either. Allied bombs will still detonate below 500 all the way down to 50m and wont even kill the plane that dropped it. So when Axis stuff starts getting fixed then maybe it will improve which isn't likely to happen. Look at the road map you have; Allies are getting the P40 P39 what are axis getting nothing to compete with it. I am going to say it again Allied Air is all one sided and that is a fact. Allies already got the P38 now they getting the P39 P40 its high time that the Axis got some stuff they have needed for a long time and with the introduction of the P40 and P39 Axis should be getting the ME262, Ju88 which is long overdue panther long overdue. But then when you do introduce those things Allied players will cry fowl so it will never stop its the nature of the beast. The only way that I can see this stopping is dump the historical accuracy stuff and make every thing in the game equally killable. 

I totally agree.

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1 hour ago, BLKHWK8 said:

I think the point being made here is there is a difference between negativity and constructive criticism. Being civil and thoughtful in the forums can achieve a better response.

For example - Sgthenning mentions the allies cry and CRS fixes immediately. This is simple not true period. I also would like to know which rat said we fix allied stuff because it's easier. I highly doubt this was said.  I also remember when you playing allied the same complaints about axis fixes. 

My point is perception is not fact.  Since I joined this team the conversation has always been on overall game play.

don't ever question my honor boy it was said by a rat but I wont rat him out . Your so full of it blkhwk8. 

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13 minutes ago, kareca said:

simply ridiculous...

would start blocking this.

Democracy. !!!!!

 

S!

I was referring to members blocking other members, not CRS blocking their subscribers. Last time i checked the problem wasn't with CRS team members! 

If you are a moron, or a demagogue, there is no "right" that says other members have to suss through your BS.

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Okay... can we please not derail this post and go straight into what I'd like to mitigate? Re-read the original posting...

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49 minutes ago, XOOM said:

Just would like to point out, that if this was indeed said, it's entirely inaccurate. No one side's things are easier to fix versus the other, and no one side is considered favored above the other at CRS. CRS = WWII Online bias in totality, nothing less.

Thanks for the feedback S! 

Let me expand on what I mean a bit and see if you get what I am saying here. If you make all the Air Equally killable on both sides there will be nothing to complain about. Same With tanks wont have anything to complain about. By doing this it will also give you a solid base across the board to work with. Yea I realize that would mean running into a tank with another tank  that it will come down to whos faster on the trigger or skill and use of the tank. But at least you can blame your lack of skill VS the other option that something is bugged broke and the like. Get the point here make it skill based rather than bug based which this game is totally bugged base. You can tell us that you got a Handel on the code until your blew in the face because everyone knows you don't. That is totally apparent by the fixing of one bug only to create more bugs. The more bugs the more people are unhappy with the game. Go back to basics for awhile while you figure the code out. We call that in the military keep it simple stupid. I am not calling you all stupid by the way so don't take it that way. But in the mean time having a skilled base game where it comes down to skill VS rather than Which piece of equipment is bugged and can be exploited is way better than a game full of Buggs.

Edited by sgthenning

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4 hours ago, choad said:

Suggestions for cutting back on member vs. member banter and personal attacks. Yeah i'm just as guilty as the rest of you ;)

Maybe activate enhanced ignore features (assuming this forum software has them). We all know there are certain members who really do not warrant our time. Even if you have them ignored, their obnoxious posts show-up in your "recent unread activity" thread. Sometimes you can't help yourself and you just get realed in! Anyways, seeing threads they started creates lots of noise in the feed as well. I think a lot of quibbling would be eliminated if you had true blinders on in this regard.

Wish they had a feature "ignore posts created by ......".

They should have a feature to "ignore topics in this forum" ... when it comes to viewing your unread content feed.

An option to forbid a person from posting on a topic you started would be nice. 

A reciprocal ignore feature. Essentially hide your posts of threads you started from such and such a person, also would be nice.

 

 

come on Choad you know we do a little ribbing at each other once in awhile lol

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23 minutes ago, choad said:

I was referring to members blocking other members, not CRS blocking their subscribers. Last time i checked the problem wasn't with CRS team members! 

If you are a moron, or a demagogue, there is no "right" that says other members have to suss through your BS.

I have never morally hit someone.
this should be banned from the forum!

S!

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11 hours ago, XOOM said:

So that we can have a more positive atmosphere, where instead of constant fighting, belittling, and finger pointing exists, we can create a healthy atmosphere that is inviting for participation, which is productive and works to improve the game and community?

You can throw away your biased view of Blitzkrieg and give the community a "game" worth playing... You focus on this false reality aspect that this is how the real world "happened" and give your player base a game designed fairly.

I fully understand that Germany had better optics and the highway system designed to create a fast moving take over of Europe, I get it... I've read history so have many of your players...

But dude, you have LOST sight of reality... this is a GAME, it needs a fair balanced system. The Allies had aspects that were FAR better then the Axis did... but you don't implement those aspects... you are still stuck in 1930's mentality.

Grow up, get some "gaming" insights. To be honest I've seen this over and over for over 15 years, you guys still just don't grasp it... its a GAME not a simulator... I wonder how many Dev's have left CRS because you REFUSE to grasp this concept.

FOCUS on Graphical Improvement. Focus on a FAIR playing field for your players. THROW AWAY YOUR DAMN HISTORY BOOKS DAMMIT.

You have a GAME to run... and you are NOT doing it. Either grow up or pass control to a young buck and let them run with it.

So, among my negativity I have given you positivity... a way ahead... will you listen or will you be stubborn and stupid and go down as the game of the century with the most potential but biggest failure for refusing to grasp real reality of a gaming world with millions in financial potential or will you throw away your savings and mortgage your house, lose your wife due to her seeing you be financially stupid or will you accept even the negative criticism as reasonable suggestions and maybe make some changes to create the best damn game of the century.

Do you know what it takes to get that title?

PLAYERS who brag...

Your players aren't bragging... that means YOU are doing something wrong. If you cannot see that and fix that then you deserve everything you get.

I was here on day one, I lived through the hell, in the first few days I led one of the first combined arms organized assaults on a town (and rolled it in minutes with tanks trucks infantry and planes)... my friends didn't have the tenacity to survive the hell of crashfest release week, I did.) I've come back over and over to see very slow improvements.

It's time to  take this game into a new generation and if you can't see you are the problem then you need to step aside and let another lead CRS.

That's my opinion, for what little it's worth to you.

Sabe

Tim Sabean Sr

St Augustine, FL

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45 minutes ago, XOOM said:

Just would like to point out, that if this was indeed said, it's entirely inaccurate. No one side's things are easier to fix versus the other, and no one side is considered favored above the other at CRS. CRS = WWII Online bias in totality, nothing less.

Thanks for the feedback S! 

Maybe just maybe Henning said it cause it's a lot easier to get your hands on Allied data then German data ( just a guess) . When we ( this game had a big German speaking base ) Greni PLD comes to mind and other players that supplied the old CRS team with countless historical documents of weapon and Armor performance.

But all that was either swept under the rug or nit picked . All I remember is that  one German player did go to Texas to help out and I think if my memory serves me right left in frustration. 

Even Greni got banned for what is I believe still a mystery. And he held that CRS banner high even when the old Team had the Boneheaded idea of Rapid Assault , I should know cause myself and him went around and around how much if an idiotic idea it was while he kept defending it.

Today he won't even look at WWIIOL anymore. Kinda SAD.

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7 minutes ago, kareca said:

I have never morally hit someone.
this should be banned from the forum!

S!

I actually think we (maybe) agree ... however i think it is likely lost in translation never to be found. S!

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I think some of the negativity center around some very long in waiting additions to the game. Ill bullet point but TBH, this is not the total list and more centered around the ground game because that's what I know.

Losing Scotsman was a HUGE hit first of all to those of us who relied on his vision and him leaving so abruptly after all the time and effort to just leave the game really does not give us a good fuzzy feeling toward the future.

That being said in his farewell post he said that CRS has everything to move ahead.  To me that includes the ballistics, HE, Bombs, real penetration, infantry damage issue etc. that's is what he was working to fix or add.  After following his posts in the forums things like new equipment are just a pipeline issue at the creator desk.  I am going to make the assumption that means the fixes are there also but just not implemented yet? and @Xoom, you said you have to make sure you get what you are looking for.  Can you please elaborate on that? I think that needs addressing to what exactly that is? And mb address the issues that are preventing you from getting the following list of items completed and possible rollout.  This would go the distance for many of us.

 

1. Here is the problem.. the bomb issue is being rolled back, however if you look back in his posts about the persistent damage model killing tanks GP bombs absolutely could kill tanks. He spelled out what to expect, light tanks should be reliably/easily kills and as you go up the food chain of heavier tanks they would be progressively harder.  However now we are rolling back the bombs "partially".. does that mean that the bomb damage model.. frag kill radius is gone also?

2. The infantry damage model issue for receiving HE/bomb frags (see above) is that now something we wont be seeing for a while? I think we have a post about or two about it every month.

3. Accuracy and ballistics - when? Many of us want to see our SMGs perform as expected.

4. Proper ammo performance?  Scotsman said in some of his posts that he found several out of wack penetration/performance issues that will be fixed.

5. Lastly in his farwell post, Scotsman emphasized something I think we are ALL concerned with and that is the Absolute right to demand a balanced game.  I find his statement troubling in light of his abrupt departure - he was and is passionate about this game. I'm not sure if there are tea leaves to be read through here.

 

So gathering these issues in the forefront that have been a great concern to many of the PB and often discussed... TBH these items that where promised to fundamentally change the game toward being realistic which was very exciting.. I think you need to get us back on track by addressing these concerns.  I know you cannot be so transparent we know what color undies you wear but this would be a good starting point to help us have a more positive view of where we are heading and when we can expect these promised fixes.

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23 minutes ago, stankyus said:

I think some of the negativity center around some very long in waiting additions to the game. Ill bullet point but TBH, this is not the total list and more centered around the ground game because that's what I know.

Losing Scotsman was a HUGE hit first of all to those of us who relied on his vision and him leaving so abruptly after all the time and effort to just leave the game really does not give us a good fuzzy feeling toward the future.

That being said in his farewell post he said that CRS has everything to move ahead.  To me that includes the ballistics, HE, Bombs, real penetration, infantry damage issue etc. that's is what he was working to fix or add.  After following his posts in the forums things like new equipment are just a pipeline issue at the creator desk.  I am going to make the assumption that means the fixes are there also but just not implemented yet? and @Xoom, you said you have to make sure you get what you are looking for.  Can you please elaborate on that? I think that needs addressing to what exactly that is? And mb address the issues that are preventing you from getting the following list of items completed and possible rollout.  This would go the distance for many of us.

 

1. Here is the problem.. the bomb issue is being rolled back, however if you look back in his posts about the persistent damage model killing tanks GP bombs absolutely could kill tanks. He spelled out what to expect, light tanks should be reliably/easily kills and as you go up the food chain of heavier tanks they would be progressively harder.  However now we are rolling back the bombs "partially".. does that mean that the bomb damage model.. frag kill radius is gone also?

2. The infantry damage model issue for receiving HE/bomb frags (see above) is that now something we wont be seeing for a while? I think we have a post about or two about it every month.

3. Accuracy and ballistics - when? Many of us want to see our SMGs perform as expected.

4. Proper ammo performance?  Scotsman said in some of his posts that he found several out of wack penetration/performance issues that will be fixed.

5. Lastly in his farwell post, Scotsman emphasized something I think we are ALL concerned with and that is the Absolute right to demand a balanced game.  I find his statement troubling in light of his abrupt departure - he was and is passionate about this game. I'm not sure if there are tea leaves to be read through here.

 

So gathering these issues in the forefront that have been a great concern to many of the PB and often discussed... TBH these items that where promised to fundamentally change the game toward being realistic which was very exciting.. I think you need to get us back on track by addressing these concerns.  I know you cannot be so transparent we know what color undies you wear but this would be a good starting point to help us have a more positive view of where we are heading and when we can expect these promised fixes.

  1. The bomb roll back has been identified as a temporary and necessary stop-gap solution for some unintended consequences adversely affecting game play.
  2. The fragmentation against infantry I am pretty certain will remain as is, the bombs will not be rolled back entirely, just a specific element of it, the penetration constant, if I understand that all correctly.
  3. The small arms audit you're referring to with SMG's is something Hatch has the data for and knows how to do. His plate is dramatically loaded so it's a matter of getting through the field of his existing priorities and getting towards it.
  4. Proper ammo, which I believe is kinetic (non-HE) ammo should be in-game already. As for armor thicknesses on vehicles, that's another thing to get to.
  5. Scotsman's statement is something we believe at CRS, that's why we agreed to him coming onboard and implementing a large series of his ideas. We have very much wanted to get back to getting the game to as realistically close as we can.

As far as his departure goes, it is unfortunate and was not desired. We are grateful for all that he did and will continue that work to the best of our ability. His departure should not be seen as a disagreement in vision or pursuit towards an improved game experience.

That being said CRS remains committed with its team onboard to support WWII Online and work down the path towards improving what we can where we can.

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15 hours ago, XOOM said:

So that we can have a more positive atmosphere, where instead of constant fighting, belittling, and finger pointing exists, we can create a healthy atmosphere that is inviting for participation, which is productive and works to improve the game and community?

WWII Online 'Kinder & Gentler' TOP TEN:

10)  After KIA, play 'Sending Virtual Hug' gif.

9)  Every fifth round shoots poofs of positive affirmation.

8)  When a Rat mods a post, they must type 'Bippity-Boppity-Boo!'.

7)  Super Mario Theme at every CP capture.

6)  Change 'The Hanger' title to 'Angry Man-Love'.

5)  When cloud cover emerges, play scratchy gramophone of Gene Kelly breaking into song.

4)  Next to 'Like This', add new 'Giggity' button.

3)  New exclusive 'Rainbow Room' DLC.

2)  Replace Spawn Delay with 'KHAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAN!!  Delay'

1)  ...A fund-raiser.

 

Edited by forrest
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That list is somewhat magical Forrest :D , gave me a good laugh thanks.

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Hi XOOM ,

I still think you do a great job with what you had to work with from the start.

From your perspective you should probably be thinking of forum negativity levels more like a team morale problem. Look at the player base as your players, your the Head Coach.  We are all waiting for the new equipment and game plan that we can, or at least the vast majority, buy into. I know. It's a tough sell. Just be as transparent as possible.

Forum Positivity

I know there are posters out there that do try and maintain some sense of decorum. Game development results at this stage works wonders. 1.36 is the next big milestone from where I sit. It will fundamentally change the way the game is played and at least temporarily improve forum morale, most likely improve morale for a significant period as 1.36.01...etc. start rolling out. 

The only ways for a development team to affect the team morale question and diminish negativity in game forums is three fold from my point of view.

1. CRS/RATS Always and I mean always take it on the chin. That is the one cross you all bear from my point of view; it comes with the territory. Always be professional and always execute discipline professionally and dispassionately.

2. Execution and Results. There is no getting around this one. Transparency goes a long way here.

3. Moderators for Obvious TOS Violations. There is something to be said to having a very small (2-3) team of dedicated Community Moderators that manage the forums daily for Obvious TOS Violations.

There is really very little else you can do that I can see. Of course your TOS really sets the tone and of course your leadership as an example.

 

S!

 

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Scotsman left?  ...   Hmmm.  

As I've stated before, the entire HE and ballistics performance realism thing was a bridge too far. It's wasted time on something that will only break other things and in the end will only pi$$ more people off when it doesn't work the way they want it too. 

Perfect example of why the forums are so negative, right there. The forums are negative because people are unhappy with the game. Duh! 

Sometimes, you guys put WAY too much thought into this. It's a game. One built in 2001. Quit trying to make it the ultimate simulator in the history of simulators. It's NEVER GOING TO HAPPEN. 

Here's an idea. Fix the sh*t that's broke. You have a great game. Stop trying to make it something it's not and just make it work for a change. 

And stop trying to moderate the forums. You're looking for unicorns and rainbows. That's never going to happen either.

You want some place for the new and un-tarnished to visit and keep a positive attitude? Fine, start a new section for them and moderate the hell out of it. We will never want to go in there with our crap. I won't be any fun.

We'll stay down here in the Wild West were the Mods can't pick favorites and hand out TOS's when they feel like it and NOT hand out TOS's when they like the guy... Yep.

Please don't EVEN try to deny it.  I've been here WAY too long and have witnessed the double standard MANY, MANY times.  Just leave these forums alone. Walk away. Start a new one for the faint at heart. 

You want to know how to "get beyond the negativity in the forums". Hahahahah. You can't. It's human nature.

Edited by lipton

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4 hours ago, XOOM said:
  1. The bomb roll back has been identified as a temporary and necessary stop-gap solution for some unintended consequences adversely affecting game play.
  2. The fragmentation against infantry I am pretty certain will remain as is, the bombs will not be rolled back entirely, just a specific element of it, the penetration constant, if I understand that all correctly.
  3. The small arms audit you're referring to with SMG's is something Hatch has the data for and knows how to do. His plate is dramatically loaded so it's a matter of getting through the field of his existing priorities and getting towards it.
  4. Proper ammo, which I believe is kinetic (non-HE) ammo should be in-game already. As for armor thicknesses on vehicles, that's another thing to get to.
  5. Scotsman's statement is something we believe at CRS, that's why we agreed to him coming onboard and implementing a large series of his ideas. We have very much wanted to get back to getting the game to as realistically close as we can.

As far as his departure goes, it is unfortunate and was not desired. We are grateful for all that he did and will continue that work to the best of our ability. His departure should not be seen as a disagreement in vision or pursuit towards an improved game experience.

That being said CRS remains committed with its team onboard to support WWII Online and work down the path towards improving what we can where we can.

There you have it #2 Xoom the one thing that is torking people of the most in game and its not going to get fixed. Your damn lucky to kill inf with bomb unless they are in a building and it gets blown up. Then wonder why people are not happy well that's a big one right there. 

You also have bombers out running fighters seriously you call that realistic its not. This game can not be realistic and unrealistic at the same time it wont work it hasn't worked and it never will work. It has to be one way or the other not a combo of the two. To the majority of todays gamers don't want realistic anyway they want a game that works that's free of bugs. Your trying to expand your player base and make the game grow; great but your not going to achieve that when we do get new players and see all the bugs in this game they don't subscribe. When you do fix bugs it creates even more bugs. This game needs a complete overhaul and that is not going to happen until the owner opens his purse strings and hires a full time staff of coders to update the code to the present day code which would entail and entire rewrite of the game and I don't see that happing.

Edited by sgthenning

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23 minutes ago, choad said:

@sgthenning Was that supposed to be the "Don't [censored] down my back and tell me it's raining" pic?

you mean this one Choad

 

 

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3 minutes ago, sgthenning said:

you mean this one Choad

Ahhh yes - that is the one!

 

PS - Update your sig :)

Edited by choad

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Just a few comments.

1) Been very happy with all dev work this last year or so, absolutely needed and so glad to see.  It has changed me from negative to a believer.

2) Scot leaving is a really big bummer to me; has me worried, I guess time will tell.

3) I'm quite sure rats are pro both sides and want a good game, that being said, I too feel rats go out of their way to fix allied stuff immediately while axis issues go unheard.

Example, allied SMG changed in a day or 2, mp34 still lousy.  There has been at least 1 other hot patch for allies, but can't recall it off hand.  I've never seen the game changed quickly to fix an axis issue.

We have issues that have been going on for years now...  uhm silent allied armored cars, coasting allied trucks; these should have been fixed YEARS ago.

To be fair, some of the long standing axis issues HAVE finally been starting to get addressed, e.g. RDP/factories. Bombing from 25' in the air.

4) The initial HE/KE work is great, and yes it has exposed a few issues, those issues need to be taken care of.  We should NOT be rolling back any HE changes imo.  Move to the future.

5) The infantry/crew DM audit is very important, effecting all HE, mortars, grenadiers and grenades - it is HUGE - don't roll stuff back - do the correct fix on infantry/crew DM.

6) Air is a disaster for the most part, that being said, I have seen improvements - can't say too much as not that knowledgeable, but keep posting plans to move it forward.

7 Small arms audit, stay on it.

8 Armor audit, stay on it.

 

In summary, so much going good imo right now, keep it up, keep letting us know what is being worked on.  I actually finally see the game moving forward, don't let that stop.

 

Edited by delems
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I agree @delems - progress is very nice to see. We should support it the best we can - but keep pushing the direction of course.

I do not want to hijack this thread - other than to say I think CRS listens to Axis players plenty as well. Adjusting bomb timers for example (as i recall this was primarily a complaint from stuka pilots). Anyways, no need to go around in circles on that.... we could could point counter-point it until blue in the face.

Lastly, I would note that there certainly is a perception by allied players of an Axis biased in terms of the toys we get to play with. A large litany of things - that we have all heard before. I can't speak to the air-game.

My point here is that both sides complain, feel conspired against, and it's been that way forever. That is not to say there are not legit disparities, bugs, and what-not. It is human nature to a certain degree - been here since the game started, not EVER going to go away. 

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