goreblimey

TIER 1 armour BALANCE need looking at

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Axis Arm brigades , gain power relative to the allied ones.

12 battle tanks (3H 4D 3F 38t) plus 3 stugs..in inf vs 27 battle tanks plus 7 stugs in the armour.

light armour stays the same-ish 12 232/p2.

 

French 

12 Battle tanks (s35 Stuarts H39 (really thats a stretch)) Plus 2 Chars in INF only 22 battle tanks Plus 2 Chars in armour Bgds.

light armour reduced from 12 to 7.

Brits are along the same lines

WHY is this the case .....  

 

 

 

 

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Entire TOE structure for ALL tiers under review.

We have historical budget based baseline for all combatants equipment and for all branches that we will be presenting to you, the community, in the near future to determine just where on the historical scale we actually want to be with respect to gameplay and balance numbers in coordination with population. etc.

Don't worry, we are all pretty hardcore as far as equipment debut times, but in context of historical numbers, if we  choose to go 100% by the numbers, an infantry brigade/garrison might end up with 600 rifles, no armor (only a few CS tanks) and only either 50 or 20  SMG's. For comparison, you only get like 200 rifles today... Also, just focusing on debut dates and historical numbers puts historical unbalances in play with various equipment that tends to see-saw back and forth between allied and axis throughout the war as they debuted new weapons and strategies and the other side countered. Example, Brits Infantry Bde starts with 0, nada, SMG's at all, then gets only 20 the last half of 1940 (tier1.5) until they get 40 by 2nd half of 1941(tier 2.5), while the axis Infantry Bde starts with 50 at the get go... So maybe you trade 167 of the 600 rifles for 50 SMG's to start with smg parity... I think you get the drift of working within overall budget... Not saying that isn't as it should be, but but we want to bring these historical numbers to you guys, talk them over, and come to a reasonable consensus between historic and gameplay that everyone can sign off on as a new  budget based baseline for all forces. Stay tuned. Will hopefully be presenting this to you within the next couple of weeks.

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8 hours ago, goreblimey said:

WHY is this the case .....  

1. Go here: https://stats.wwiionline.com/weaponclasscomparison.php

2. Search the "axis heavy tank" class of vehicles.

3. You'll find none.

4. You understand.

 

35 minutes ago, HATCH said:

Will hopefully be presenting this to you within the next couple of weeks.

Cool!

Edited by vanapo
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vanapo , you missed the point.

 

If we assume Inf brigade TOE is balanced then the armoured Brigade is obviously not.   The same ratios are not maintained for some reason.

 

You can take your acid comments back to the negativity forum , LOL

 

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21 minutes ago, goreblimey said:

vanapo , you missed the point.

 

If we assume Inf brigade TOE is balanced then the armoured Brigade is obviously not.   The same ratios are not maintained for some reason.

Might be true - I don't have the complete numbers. I just remembered an axis player recently pointing out that allies got dozens and dozens of additional light tanks/tankettes and due to that a staggering amount of armor compared to the axis brigades in total. When I remember it correctly, the allied response to that was "tankettes don't count".

As can be seen by that it's fairly off to just sum up some (not all) equipment numbers and compare them to each other without looking at the material itself. This is what Hatch pointed out aswell. And he said there gonna be rather big changes in the very near future. So let's just all take a look at it then.

And I have to say again, as I said before: It would be nice if there would be a wiki page that lists all equipment numbers for all brigades of all sides for all tiers. It's rather cumbersome to mine this data.

Edit: Aren't there HQ brigades with extra equipment that are not listed in this numbers above?

Edited by vanapo

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Tier 0 and 1 Allied armor is much better.

Tier 2. Near balance 

Tier 3. Axis with the Tieger ruls the Battlefield,  but not so much as the Char and Matilda did it in Tier 0 and 1.

 

This is only my own view.

 

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5 hours ago, HATCH said:

Entire TOE structure for ALL tiers under review.

We have historical budget based baseline for all combatants equipment and for all branches that we will be presenting to you, the community, in the near future to determine just where on the historical scale we actually want to be with respect to gameplay and balance numbers in coordination with population. etc.

Don't worry, we are all pretty hardcore as far as equipment debut times, but in context of historical numbers, if we  choose to go 100% by the numbers, an infantry brigade/garrison might end up with 600 rifles, no armor (only a few CS tanks) and only either 50 or 20  SMG's. For comparison, you only get like 200 rifles today... Also, just focusing on debut dates and historical numbers puts historical unbalances in play with various equipment that tends to see-saw back and forth between allied and axis throughout the war as they debuted new weapons and strategies and the other side countered. Example, Brits Infantry Bde starts with 0, nada, SMG's at all, then gets only 20 the last half of 1940 (tier1.5) until they get 40 by 2nd half of 1941(tier 2.5), while the axis Infantry Bde starts with 50 at the get go... So maybe you trade 167 of the 600 rifles for 50 SMG's to start with smg parity... I think you get the drift of working within overall budget... Not saying that isn't as it should be, but but we want to bring these historical numbers to you guys, talk them over, and come to a reasonable consensus between historic and gameplay that everyone can sign off on as a new  budget based baseline for all forces. Stay tuned. Will hopefully be presenting this to you within the next couple of weeks.

Interesting concept and I don't know if your example is just off the cuff but I see some serious issues in the future with the concept. However I think I get your concept.

IF the BEF start with 600 riffles in the beginning..  and the Axis start with 50 SMGs, then theoretically the Axis  have 167 less riflemen from the get go? So they have 50 SMGs and 333 riflemen? Am I reading this correctly?  So this is some sort of CVC thing?

 

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S! lol

 

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5 hours ago, sajuk said:

Tier 0 and 1 Allied armor is much better.

Tier 2. Near balance 

Tier 3. Axis with the Tieger ruls the Battlefield,  but not so much as the Char and Matilda did it in Tier 0 and 1.

 

This is only my own view.

 

Yeah I wish CRS extend Tier 2 duration cuz its where most fun is at ... tanking wise.

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6 hours ago, sajuk said:

Tier 0 and 1 Allied armor is much better.

Tier 2. Near balance 

Tier 3. Axis with the Tieger ruls the Battlefield,  but not so much as the Char and Matilda did it in Tier 0 and 1.

 

This is only my own view.

 

Agree!

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17 hours ago, goreblimey said:

Axis Arm brigades , gain power relative to the allied ones.

12 battle tanks (3H 4D 3F 38t) plus 3 stugs..in inf vs 27 battle tanks plus 7 stugs in the armour.

light armour stays the same-ish 12 232/p2.

 

French 

12 Battle tanks (s35 Stuarts H39 (really thats a stretch)) Plus 2 Chars in INF only 22 battle tanks Plus 2 Chars in armour Bgds.

light armour reduced from 12 to 7.

Brits are along the same lines

WHY is this the case .....  

 

 

 

 

Have you consistently tanked in axis tier 0 and 1? Try it. Do 10 campaigns. Then come back to your question. 

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3 hours ago, stankyus said:

Interesting concept and I don't know if your example is just off the cuff but I see some serious issues in the future with the concept. However I think I get your concept.

IF the BEF start with 600 riffles in the beginning..  and the Axis start with 50 SMGs, then theoretically the Axis  have 167 less riflemen from the get go? So they have 50 SMGs and 333 riflemen? Am I reading this correctly?  So this is some sort of CVC thing?

Almost... Both the Brit and Germans Inf Bdes start historically with 600 riflemen... But the Germans ALSO have 50 SMG while the Brits have none. Soooo, working within the Brits budget, they could trade 167 rifles for 50 Thompsons to bring parity to the Germans SMG's at start, but then they would be down 167 rifles comparatively... But on the other side of the equation, the German Inf Bde doesn't have any grenadiers till 1st quarter of 1942. That's just the way it was... Now if the weapons were developed, it's easy enough to trade an excess of one thing for the other. If the weapon hasn't even been developed yet for that side we start getting into history warping territory in the name of balance. Something we prefer not to do as much as humanly possible. This is the point of the upcoming discussion, to stick as closely within the context of historical timelines, weapon ratios, and comparative overall budgets, but keep enough parity so that while different tactics might need to be employed for one side or the other during certain periods, everyone still feels capable of holding their own.

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9 hours ago, sajuk said:

Tier 0 and 1 Allied armor is much better.

Tier 2. Near balance 

Tier 3. Axis with the Tieger ruls the Battlefield,  but not so much as the Char and Matilda did it in Tier 0 and 1.

 

This is only my own view.

 

You may very well be right. Assuming you are, the onus is on the Allies to steam roll the map before Tier 3 is reached. Usually it is a matter of a couple weeks (2 to 3 i would say).

After that, all things being equal, the Axis have a decisive advantage in terms of armor for the remainder of the campaign given the number of Tigers you get.

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I cannot BELIEVE that CRS devs would even TRY to smooth this discrepancy over.

You assume that all tankers are of the same training and experience.

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8 hours ago, choad said:

You may very well be right. Assuming you are, the onus is on the Allies to steam roll the map before Tier 3 is reached. Usually it is a matter of a couple weeks (2 to 3 i would say).

After that, all things being equal, the Axis have a decisive advantage in terms of armor for the remainder of the campaign given the number of Tigers you get.

Dont have to steam roll per se
Do have to reverse the tactics axis have to use at the beginning.
B1 and Matilda are tough cookies, but limited in number, so you have to use teamwork against them.

Then things kind of reach a middleground a bit, and then it reverses
Tiger is a tough cookie, but it is limited in number, so you have to work together to remove the tigers from the fight.

31st WC used to be great at it, get a few stugs, and pzIII's or what not tieing up the B1's attention span and SA by smacking it
at a range where it also can not get an easy kill on you.
Keep it busy while you send a 38t around to punch it in the flank, and keep good comms going to the 38t

 

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On 9/14/2018 at 5:02 PM, HATCH said:

Almost... Both the Brit and Germans Inf Bdes start historically with 600 riflemen... But the Germans ALSO have 50 SMG while the Brits have none. Soooo, working within the Brits budget, they could trade 167 rifles for 50 Thompsons to bring parity to the Germans SMG's at start, but then they would be down 167 rifles comparatively... But on the other side of the equation, the German Inf Bde doesn't have any grenadiers till 1st quarter of 1942. That's just the way it was... Now if the weapons were developed, it's easy enough to trade an excess of one thing for the other. If the weapon hasn't even been developed yet for that side we start getting into history warping territory in the name of balance. Something we prefer not to do as much as humanly possible. This is the point of the upcoming discussion, to stick as closely within the context of historical timelines, weapon ratios, and comparative overall budgets, but keep enough parity so that while different tactics might need to be employed for one side or the other during certain periods, everyone still feels capable of holding their own.

Ok so it would be something like this.

BEF 600 Rifflemen, 50 Grenadiers, 0 SMGs

Axis 600 Rifflemen, 50 SMGs, 0 Grenadiers?

 

So the FG42is not going to be in the regular HEER now either and just the FJ?

The US just going to have Garands also? Thats the historical weapon... 

 

Im just trying to figure out what exceptions and where they are going to be allowed and who they are going to be given too.  Im sorry, balance is definitely on my Radar.

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what about all of your f**kers planes??? the axis has half of what you guys have and you guys STILL want MORE. 

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2 hours ago, stankyus said:

Ok so it would be something like this.

BEF 600 Rifflemen, 50 Grenadiers, 0 SMGs

Axis 600 Rifflemen, 50 SMGs, 0 Grenadiers?

So the FG42is not going to be in the regular HEER now either and just the FJ?

The US just going to have Garands also? Thats the historical weapon...

Im just trying to figure out what exceptions and where they are going to be allowed and who they are going to be given too.  Im sorry, balance is definitely on my Radar.

Exactly. IF  we adhere to 100% historical orders of battle.  That is why we will be working with you guys to determine where we are going to end up along the spectrum of play balance vs the actual historical tactical identity of the British, French, and US armies. Sure to be a passionate and interesting discussion.

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What will be the "historical" end of the British/French/German development spectrum for tiers after 0...actual history, or historical capabilities? What if the actual history was brought about by war-events that haven't yet happened in that WWIIOL campaign?

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compromise. We Belgians are good at that.

If we moved to AO-triggered supplies we could let garrisons start with historically accurate balances , but then (when the AO timer advances) pour in more fancy figures to make the gameplay interesting and offer toys to play with.

Consider « waves » of heavier tiers equipments simultaneously on both sides to keep the fight balanced and playable for low ranks and DLCs. Aside from adrenaline that would result from these mini-attrition-objectives on heavier units until the next wave, it would make the game much more easier to manage for @OHMin this TOE audit context.

Full suggestion topic here:

 

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16 hours ago, HATCH said:

Exactly. IF  we adhere to 100% historical orders of battle.  That is why we will be working with you guys to determine where we are going to end up along the spectrum of play balance vs the actual historical tactical identity of the British, French, and US armies. Sure to be a passionate and interesting discussion.

Why do that at all?

Listen, this extends well beyond what riffle is there and who gets it.

We going back to M10s and S75s vrs Tigers again?

Cru3s vrs P4Gs and StugGs?

 

Ok, so if that is the case for the plan, now sell us the idea toward the TO&E and numbers for how this balance is going to work.  No since in being shady about just selling the idea, I want to know exactly how it plays out.  Simply because the potential for Not seeing the S76/CH7 or Up and coming Firefly/achillies until t4.  Seriously the Panther could even be a T3 tank.. and we will be left with 75mm armed Shermans, 6pdr tanks, and some thin skinned TDs..  I mean thats what you are spelling out.

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***  I mean thats what you are spelling out.

Just cause you get the best tanks in tier 0, doesn't meant you get them every tier.

Maybe now you know how axis feels in the early tiers.....

Adapt and overcome like axis has had to do every tier 0 for the last 17 years.

 

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47 minutes ago, delems said:

Adapt and overcome like axis has had to do every tier 0 for the last 17 years.

It has been said many many times before..... but i guess it is worth repeating yet again .....

TIER 0 LASTS ONE EFF'N WEEK!!!

A very heavy cross to bear ... no doubt! But hats off to the Axis, a very robust bunch to persevere through such a stacked deck.

Plus, your main point of angst is a tank (the matty) where HALF the allied flags get 2 of them. Tisk tisk.

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Name me a tier1 german tank that can't be killed by anything the french flags or brit flags have?


Yea, didn't think so.

How about tier0 where char and matty are unkillable.  Meanwhile the 2pdr is still good at MSPs up until the campaign end..


 

Edited by saffroli

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1 hour ago, stankyus said:

We going back to M10s and S75s vrs Tigers again?

Just my own thoughts (meaning has 0 bearing on game related decisions)
Tiger I would appear in late T2 (this is assuming multi staged tiers)
It's numbers would be very low and localized(by some mechanic that limited where one would be actually available)
Low enough that one appearing would be an "Oh Snit, they have a cave troll" moment. 

And you would have to work together to get rid of it with (assuming a more finished equip list)
your ATG M4A2 M3 Lee M10s Crusader III and such, and you'd have to go at it from a "We are taking this sucker out together" perspective
Not an "I am taking this out by myself" perspective.

76mm gunned M4's would show up in like mid T4, with the firefly possible making a slightly earlier entrance in early T4
or just mid as we are talking about only a month and a half difference, With the achilles also appearing in mid T4.
M36 following in late T4, Archer, etc.

I'd continue to make use of some kind localization mechanic to allow otherwise unbalancing units
to be able to exist in their proper place/time with proper numbers representation by preventing them from
having  an area of spread coverage that they were not capable of. Matty's Tiger Is, B1s, Tiger IIs, Pershing etc.

Beyond that, adapt and overcome ?

 

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