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Impressions about no SD and the capture timers

78 posts in this topic

For me, the system its much more adequate than the SD.

Its true that the underpop side normally is screwed, but hell… any underpop side is screwed 95% of times!

The SD is gone and its very very very positive for me.

Great advance CRS!

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Is this the same for others? I realize the current Campaign is not favoring the Allies given the current map state. 

I think we need more time to properly evaluate. A new Campaign will be welcome as well given what I am witnessing with the Allied morale.

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Do some analysis, especially at the extreme boundaries. (keeping in the no SD)

What if cap times were 10 min base;  and 5 min for under and 15 min for over; how would that work out?

What if cap times were 30 sec base; and 15 sec for under and 45 sec for over, how would that work out?
 

I  think having base cap times so long is not good, it needs to be faster imo, 2 min base, 1 min under and 3 min over? Maybe?

Captures are action, how do we increase captures/action?  (but, have to lower points for capture if we can capture more - and way to high as it is)

If captures are fast, I'm more inclined to attack as I can actually disrupt the other side; making them have to come back and defend.

 

Simply too much  waiting, same for placing and clearing bridge AOs and attack AOs - lower the timers.

OTH, flag moves should not happen in 2 min;  Maybe move them 10 min after HC initiates the command.

 

To really boost the impact of the under pop side, try a 75% sliding scale?

Have a base capture of 1 min; then under captures in 15 sec and over in 105 sec.  This will provide incentive and very good chance for the under pop to get a capture.

Idea is keep the base capture time fast, but the under pop capture time even faster to get over pop to have to defend - and faster timers means more action.

This way also, at balanced times - both sides can capture in 1 min; giving game more action.  It also brings back paras - which are dead atm.

 

I mean, think about it, waiting over 5 minutes to capture a single building is just way to long imo - especially at lower pop times.

 

Edited by delems

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I tend to agree, Delems BUT a five min cap timer is reinforcing the fact that the player is playing on a seriously over populated side. They have CHOSEN to continue the clubbing of the baby seals. If they don't like it they can remedy it on next spawn (after a suitable downtime to alleviate any spying issues etc).

The main issue is players want to win - there is no current DISINCENTIVE to stay on the overpop side and roll town after town. This is the core issue we all face.

An A1 game would not even contemplate having a system such as ours..not in a million years.

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21 hours ago, XOOM said:

Is this the same for others? I realize the current Campaign is not favoring the Allies given the current map state. 

I think we need more time to properly evaluate. A new Campaign will be welcome as well given what I am witnessing with the Allied morale.

I for one like no spawn delay as well, i really dont have much of a problem with it. Cap timers can accomplish what u are trying to do and not leave players looking at a spawn screen for 30 seconds ... which is frustrating.

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33 minutes ago, dropbear said:

I tend to agree, Delems BUT a five min cap timer is reinforcing the fact that the player is playing on a seriously over populated side. They have CHOSEN to continue the clubbing of the baby seals. If they don't like it they can remedy it on next spawn (after a suitable downtime to alleviate any spying issues etc).

The main issue is players want to win - there is no current DISINCENTIVE to stay on the overpop side and roll town after town. This is the core issue we all face.

An A1 game would not even contemplate having a system such as ours..not in a million years.

The times I've been on when the pop has been on the lower side, the OP side is unstoppable even with a long cap timer. We just zerg back into the CP with no delay. Gives the underpopped side no chance to recap. 

Everyone dislikes SD, but cap timers without SD in low pop is a mess. 

 

PS: 30 seconds isn't long at all and it worked way better than unlimited SD. It gave the underpopped side at least a chance to recap. 

 

Edited by Mosizlak
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Even if under pop captured in 15 seconds?  And over pop in 105 seconds?

That's how it works with 75% sliding scale and 1 min base capture.

If sides are even, each side can capture in 1 minute.

 

I don't see how an over pop side can zerg back in with under pop capturing in 15 seconds - unless there is more than 1 zerging, and then it takes them 7 times the players to recap on a 1 for 1 basis.

Idea is to both give under pop chance to cap - but MORE importantly, stop sitting in CPs for 5 minutes;  let the game be about action - not sitting in CPs.

Sitting in a CP for 105 seconds is way better than 5 min 36 seconds - yet, the under pop side can still capture in 15 seconds.

Might that not work?
 

Edited by delems
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My opinion.

Being in the game is more action than sitting at the AAR screen.

I found moving onto the next empty cp more boring than the 5 minute cap timer.

You need 3 players occupied in a cp when you outnumber them 2:1, or worse when counting just LAND.

Must have incentives for underpop (smg for frees), dicentives for overpop should be constrained to mechanic sliders that allow 1 inf to somehow hold his own strategically vs 2. (capping timers underpop/overpop)

I don't think the long timers on overpop cap are so bad, but up the minimum timer so axis can get shot in a cp and get back in at least once before its already capped.

EDIT: More ET than friendly INF in aubigny tonight

Edited by simarauder

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6 hours ago, dropbear said:

I tend to agree, Delems BUT a five min cap timer is reinforcing the fact that the player is playing on a seriously over populated side. They have CHOSEN to continue the clubbing of the baby seals. If they don't like it they can remedy it on next spawn (after a suitable downtime to alleviate any spying issues etc).

The main issue is players want to win - there is no current DISINCENTIVE to stay on the overpop side and roll town after town. This is the core issue we all face.

An A1 game would not even contemplate having a system such as ours..not in a million years.

The game has to incentivise playing underpop more - make it more rewarding to play the underpop than the overpop

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3 hours ago, Silky said:

The game has to incentivise playing underpop more - make it more rewarding to play the underpop than the overpop

How? Being on the ostensibly winning team is a greater motivation than any special kit, points or powerups. Unless you get to spawn Godzilla.

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Winning the campaign is not all that important.  What happens during the campaign is what is important.  While playing on the under pop side can be frustrating at times, it also has its rewards.  More targets, greater weapon availability.  ( and formerly no spawn delay)

Some people prefer offence, some defence.  Over pop offers little opportunity for defensive minded players. 

As far as adding incentives to playing the under pop side, i am not sure what could be done, but would certainly like to hear some ideas.  Bringing back spawn delay could certainly be a big incentive, but it might be unpopular now.

 

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I guess my main point is, having it take 3 min and 45 seconds as the BASE capture time for 1 player is just way to slow.  Way way to slow, especially with our pop levels at times.

If I've driven a MS, set it up, snuck into CP- and there is no one there, the CP should be mine in 1 minute - not 3 minutes and 45 seconds.

This will stimulate a lot more combat, activate paras again, and still give the under pop side a much faster cap time as it will go to 30 seconds while over pop goes to 90 seconds.

We want fights on the map, fights are recapping, moving from CP to CP - not sitting in a CP for 4 minutes, or lagfesting in a CP for 4 minutes trying to capture it/ recapture it.

If everyone thinks one minute is too short (even though it was that way for 10 years), then try base time of 2 minutes first.

 

I still go back to that map where we had 30 second capture timers - what chaos!  But what fun!

EVERY AO / DO was contested, that is fighting.

Yes, 30 seconds maybe a bit fast, but there was action everywhere and it was intense.

And with action, brings players.
 

Let me say one more time, EVERY AO/DO was contested during that 30 second map, right now there are times when NO AO/DO even has EWS on it.

Again, EVERY town was contested, which do you want - 4 towns with no EWS, or 4 contested towns?

I'm not saying 30 second timers is the way to go, just saying, map had action then, something to think about.

 

Edited by delems

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IMO Underpop is not the same on attack and on defense.

You can therefore come up with concepts like this:

1. When DEFENDING, the underpoped side has as bonus: cap timer reduction on enemy spawnables recapture.

2. When ATTACKING, the underpoped side has as bonus: Cap timer reduction on friendly spawnables capture.

So that the action is focused on spawnables for both sides, limiting the impact of unbalance on the map.

 

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8 hours ago, Bmbm said:

How? Being on the ostensibly winning team is a greater motivation than any special kit, points or powerups. Unless you get to spawn Godzilla.

You create a persona/avatar framework where points have meaning 

The character grind for points isn’t a new invention in gaming 

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16 minutes ago, Silky said:

You create a persona/avatar framework where points have meaning 

The character grind for points isn’t a new invention in gaming 

Indeed, it's become quite a staple in recent games. Being able to create your own avatar/character within the game might be beyond what the current build is capable of, but it is a good idea.

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24 minutes ago, Silky said:

You create a persona/avatar framework where points have meaning 

The character grind for points isn’t a new invention in gaming 

OK, but in the short term? Personally I wouldn't give a hoot about pimping an avatar, and squad allegiance is likely a stronger factor than any avatar. Plus, for avatar grinding the scheme needs to be virtually endless, further reducing your likelihood of switching as you'd probably be more interested in working on your most advanced avatar than your least developed. I don't see us going in that direction at all.

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We tried the 30 sec spawn cap last year and it resulted in the shortest map in history. 

The spawn delay was in effect then as well.  Imagine how fast it would be without.

Each map would be tier 0

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No we didn't.

Map was called after one day and ended.  Because of cap time error.  We didn't 'try' it.

And there was no sliding cap timers.

And I wasn't suggesting 30 seconds;  I'd go 1 min; 2 min tops.

The reference to 30 second timers was that it was the most fun day I had ever had in game.

These 3 min 45 sec min solo cap timers with even pop are abysmal imo.

 

Edited by delems

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I don't understand what the problem is with SD. *ALL* modern PvP shooters have them (in Post Scriptum, timer when you die, it can be as much as 60 secs waiting at either a black screen or map).

There should be a penalty for dying (above and beyond simply having to quickly click through a menu screen or two to just jump back in). Death should mean something. In all the other online FPS games I've played, the penalty for dying is that you now have to wait before you can spawn back in.

This is one case where CRS simply should not listen to all the Axis players demanding no SD. Heck, a permanent death penalty timer (like every other game in existence) would be a step in the right direction. As it is, things are gamier and more cartoony than the old Unreal Tournament and Quake games, where at least you had a 10 sec timer every time you died (if I remember right). In our game, with no SD, you can kill a guy in a cp, and then face the same guy all over again a few seconds later; it's far more gamey and unrealistic than ANYTHING in a Battlefield or COD game.

Besides, as others have said, the cap timers are horrendous; it's a fool's bargain- you trade 30 secs at the menu (again, totally in line with other similar games like Post Scriptum) in exchange for 5 minutes staring at a wall inside a CP; that's bad gameplay. The anti-SDers are not thinking right.

Edited by xanthus

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1 hour ago, xanthus said:

 

This is one case where CRS simply should not listen to all the Axis players demanding no SD. gameplay. The anti-SDers are not thinking right.

Makes ya wonder, eh @stankyus

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10 hours ago, Bmbm said:

OK, but in the short term? Personally I wouldn't give a hoot about pimping an avatar, and squad allegiance is likely a stronger factor than any avatar. Plus, for avatar grinding the scheme needs to be virtually endless, further reducing your likelihood of switching as you'd probably be more interested in working on your most advanced avatar than your least developed. I don't see us going in that direction at all.

 

I’m not talking short term. If you’re looking for short term fixes to correct major game omissions that should’ve been part of the game since initial design then I’m not your man. 

The only thing you might look at is creating a secure points system that sits alongside the current kill/cap scoring, which rewards ‘team’ or ‘side’ activity like re-arming, like setting FMS, destroying FMS, creating missions and using the /order function, and also somehow rewards missions that achieve their objective. 

You’d then need to create rewards which could be gained by the Team points awarded. These might be map annotation skills, different PPOs, reduced PPO build timers, access to a new ‘command’ chat channel shared by HC, squad CO/XO/Recruiters and players with sufficient Team points. Air-wise, I’d add clone bombers to this. Ground wise, you could add an ability to create multiple FMS from one truck or truck ability to repair tracked armour. There are options, but probably none of them short term. 

Then you base points accrual rates on population, so a severely underpop side accrues points at x10 the overpop side does, and there’s a basic reward system that encourages changes in behaviour. 

 

Each Team points bank is limited to that side’s persona, and every campaign, all players lose a certain amount of Team abilities and points, to retain the need to build them again. Underpop could lose less than overpop, a proper blitzkrieg win might be rewarded by less points being chopped post-campaign. Something like that. 

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