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kareca

K/D matilda tier x panzers

111 posts in this topic

On ‎10‎/‎13‎/‎2018 at 9:03 AM, sajuk said:

@stankyus

The Pzjr I is maby a fun anti Tankhunter, but ingame with real ei, he will lose and fail totaly.

If you play war thunder (They have atm on realistic the best  damage modell) you can see that the cz47mm gun make mostly zero or less damage on a Matilda.

Germany use in france the 8,8 sfl, its a 88 gun on a sdkz, this will be a much better idea to stop a Matilda OP in Tier 0-1.

I am aware that EI will be a problem.. I think if anyone has ever taken a wacky out, they know the vulnerabilities to EI.  That being said if you get to a good position you can do damage. What the PzJr1 has over the wacky is its forward firing, has 3 sides with armor plating around the gun crew UNLESS the crew is exposed from the flank like the wacky ATG crew.. modelling will see if thats the case or not and is on tracks. Something a HE round wont knock off. I suspect it will be a bigger asset than the wacky due to its characteristics but not a panacea of tanking joy. 

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On 10/12/2018 at 8:01 PM, kareca said:

Today I shot 82 (APs) - 3H_  at the spot sapper matilda, and no kill... (250 -300m) ...

Well, keep in mind the sapper charge is HEAT, and when it places, it is going to be a perfect 0 degree angle on the plate
and it will always make its maximum penetration, and i think it can penetrate over 100mm on the sapper satchel.
So with it, you just need to make sure the placement points the jet at something fatal behind the armor.

Shooting we get angles to contend with, and varying penetration with range, and if the hit is not fully penetrating we have to rely on spall hitting the things inside we want to hit with enough force to kill them. And the spalling requires we make it something like 80% through.
And the spall also does not always go where we wish it would.

Matty is definitely hard

 

15 hours ago, jwilly said:

It rolled over and down a hill when fired.

That would be my luck. :)

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3 hours ago, Merlin51 said:

Well, keep in mind the sapper charge is HEAT, and when it places, it is going to be a perfect 0 degree angle on the plate
and it will always make its maximum penetration, and i think it can penetrate over 100mm on the sapper satchel.
So with it, you just need to make sure the placement points the jet at something fatal behind the armor.

Shooting we get angles to contend with, and varying penetration with range, and if the hit is not fully penetrating we have to rely on spall hitting the things inside we want to hit with enough force to kill them. And the spalling requires we make it something like 80% through.
And the spall also does not always go where we wish it would.

Matty is definitely hard

 

That would be my luck. :)

I'll ask the matildas to always be at a 90 degree angle to me ..  lol

...
Always a justification for the matilda.


"Matty is definitely hard" I do not agree, it's immortal in tier0 for panzers

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Thats why we need artillery, was the 105mms that took out most of the Mattys at Arras iirc. It wouldn't stick out so bad as the 88, and its got a gun shield. Bombarding with the new HE (if it ever gets here...) and poppin Matildas, whats not to like?

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39 minutes ago, blggles said:

was the 105mms that took out most of the Mattys at Arras

True. It's even possible that the 88s  had zero Matilda kills there, and all of them were by the 105 battery.

We do know from the corps battle journal that the 105 battery saved the day. It was commanded by a very junior leutnant, fresh from OCS, who correctly evaluated from troops running away in the streets the panic due to the British tank attack, and in the absence of all the other officers who were at a staff meeting across town, took the initiative to order the artillery unit to load up and follow him to what turned out to be a perfect flanking-fire location at the edge of town.

We also know that the 88 battery deployed at one side of a field on that side of town was a Luftwaffe unit detailed to Army...not Wehrmacht and attached to Rommel's division...and was deployed and prepared to provide high altitude AA fire. That fact explains why that unit's officers and men were all in their trenches as British MG bullets whizzed around and the tanks advanced across the field toward the AA guns. Per training and orders, dealing with enemy tanks wasn't a Luftwaffe AA unit's job. Rommel and his adjutant ran to that unit through that MG fire to get the unit to go into action whether they wanted to or not; Rommel's adjutant took an MG bullet through the chest and died on the spot, and Rommel ended up pinned down by the tank MG fire. Maybe some of the 88s went into action, but maybe not.

The story that it was the 88s was German propaganda, created in 1941, long after the actual battle. We don't know what part of that story was true. We do know that the British, during and after the battle, didn't understand that the 105s were firing AP at them, and in the confusion and smoke thought their progressive tank losses were due to the 88s. We also know that the Germans later recognized from Afrika Korps prisoner interrogations that the British had developed a substantial fear of the 88mm. The German propaganda may have been just a clever management of the enemy's perceptions of the earlier battle to increase that British fear.

 

 

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3 hours ago, jwilly said:

True. It's even possible that the 88s  had zero Matilda kills there, and all of them were by the 105 battery.

We do know from the corps battle journal that the 105 battery saved the day. It was commanded by a very junior leutnant, fresh from OCS, who correctly evaluated from troops running away in the streets the panic due to the British tank attack, and in the absence of all the other officers who were at a staff meeting across town, took the initiative to order the artillery unit to load up and follow him to what turned out to be a perfect flanking-fire location at the edge of town.

We also know that the 88 battery deployed at one side of a field on that side of town was a Luftwaffe unit detailed to Army...not Wehrmacht and attached to Rommel's division...and was deployed and prepared to provide high altitude AA fire. That fact explains why that unit's officers and men were all in their trenches as British MG bullets whizzed around and the tanks advanced across the field toward the AA guns. Per training and orders, dealing with enemy tanks wasn't a Luftwaffe AA unit's job. Rommel and his adjutant ran to that unit through that MG fire to get the unit to go into action whether they wanted to or not; Rommel's adjutant took an MG bullet through the chest and died on the spot, and Rommel ended up pinned down by the tank MG fire. Maybe some of the 88s went into action, but maybe not.

The story that it was the 88s was German propaganda, created in 1941, long after the actual battle. We don't know what part of that story was true. We do know that the British, during and after the battle, didn't understand that the 105s were firing AP at them, and in the confusion and smoke thought their progressive tank losses were due to the 88s. We also know that the Germans later recognized from Afrika Korps prisoner interrogations that the British had developed a substantial fear of the 88mm. The German propaganda may have been just a clever management of the enemy's perceptions of the earlier battle to increase that British fear.

 

 

Kinda like this . Just sub the Matilds Tank for the Russian Tank.

 

 

There are 2 things that speak for the PnzJgr1  and it doesn't matter that ei can kill them easy , I give you the Laffy15 ( been using it with success so I don't see why the PnzJgr1 would be much different,  in the hands of any Stug player it be a deadly weapon. ) and the M10 both Allied both killable by Axis EI . 

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Killed x2 Matilda today. With Axis tier 0 and tier 1 Panzers. No Panzers were lost in the making of this. 

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4 hours ago, rotsechs said:

Killed x2 Matilda today. With Axis tier 0 and tier 1 Panzers. No Panzers were lost in the making of this. 

8f603117ca2297dd484c8e353a4ee9ae.gif

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1 hour ago, Hardlead said:

Double track = kill. Doable with 37mm or 20mm.

You do end up with a pissed pillbox though...........

Yeah but so much easier to sap , cause you darn well know it ain't going anywhere. 

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2 hours ago, Hardlead said:

Double track = kill. Doable with 37mm or 20mm.

You do end up with a pissed pillbox though...........

You are not going to do it with the 20mm.

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3 hours ago, stankyus said:

You are not going to do it with the 20mm.

Someone poured 3+ mags AP from a 232 to the track of my Matty CS, and I got tracked.

I did not pay much attention to the 232 so he kept pouring in the AP. (we all know a 232 cant damage a Matty, right.)

Before I could despawn I was sapped.

Isnt the track damage cumulative, shoot more at the same spot and it will brake?

Edited by atgman

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35 minutes ago, atgman said:

Someone poured 3+ mags AP from a 232 to the track of my Matty CS, and I got tracked.

I did not pay much attention to the 232 so he kept pouring in the AP. (we all know a 232 cant damage a Matty, right.)

Before I could despawn I was sapped.

Isnt the track damage cumulative, shoot more at the same spot and it will brake?

The 25-20mm class ammo used to be coded out via joules delivered for guns and tracks.

The tracks and guns ONLY start accumulating damage when the minimum threshold of joules is exceeded.. then every subsequent round hitting exceeding that minimum accumulates until damage is taken.

So lets say hypothetically the tracks on a Sherman have a minimal joule threshold of 300,000 Joules. If any round hits that track and only 299,000 joules are delivered the track does not start accumulating damage - if its 300,001 joules, the track took a tiny bit of damage.

That being said I think there is a issue with the 232 ammo, one had a h2h run in with Canukplfs Matilda and the exchange from point blank made canuks Matty smoke white .. that was engine damage.  I also saw a S35 get exploded from a off angle from the rear by a 232 in Kalmhout IIRC. SO I think its very possible you did get tracked but it should not have happened.

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On 10/18/2018 at 6:15 PM, atgman said:

Someone poured 3+ mags AP from a 232 to the track of my Matty CS, and I got tracked.

I did not pay much attention to the 232 so he kept pouring in the AP. (we all know a 232 cant damage a Matty, right.)

Before I could despawn I was sapped.

Isnt the track damage cumulative, shoot more at the same spot and it will brake?

stankyus said it correctly but to the best of my knowledge and experience it's impossible to detrack a Matilda with a 20mm.. are you sure about this and might it now been something else due to fog of war.

Due to the threshold.

Edited by pbveteran

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It's impossible with a 37MM. Saronin and I tried once. He pushed right up behind me and at 5M shot all he had into both tracks while I just sat there camping and he did no damage to me.

Has the ammo been audited since I last played?

 

We did this a couple years ago at least, and happened to be in the same town on opposite sides. He figured out where I was, (pretty easy, I was hull down and mowing infantry down for 15 min by then,) and he set up right there and shot until he was out of ammo.

The Matty DM is wrong and needs a change to reflect actual armor values -not whatever the last team shoved in there to get it "ready" for live play ten or so years ago.

Sad though, that it's been so bad for so long.

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On 10/15/2018 at 6:46 PM, kareca said:

Always a justification for the matilda.

What do you want the matilda to be exactly?
Its armored like a 1939/40 tiger so to speak, way overly armored for it's time period, and it carries a gun that for it's time period
was sufficient to take out most things it would face in close to medium range engagements.
It just kind of stunk in the mobility area, heavy and slow even with 2 engines, but if they needed the epitome of haste, they had the tetrach
which was fast even by modern standards.

3 hours ago, vasduten1 said:

The Matty DM is wrong and needs a change to reflect actual armor values -not whatever the last team shoved in there to get it "ready" for live play ten or so years ago.

Why do you post this nonsense and try to promote disinformation?

Matilda II real life
Lower Hull Nose    78
Upper Hull Nose    47
Hull Front    75
Hull Sides Lower 25 + 40
Hull Sides Upper 70
Hull Rear 55
Hull Roof (Front) 20
Engine Deck    20
Hull Floor (Front half)    20
Hull Floor (Rear half) 13
Turret Front 75
Turret Roof    20
Turret Sides 75
Turret Rear    75

The ingame model is very close to that, and is not over that.


The only place it is over armored is the same place ALL tanks are over armored, which is the roof/deck surfaces
which got done a long time back when aircraft where shooting through them due to how the ammo was working and which will
when resources permit, be set back correctly across the board as that is no longer needed since we now have ammo that
behaves as it should in that aspect.

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13 hours ago, Merlin51 said:

What do you want the matilda to be exactly?
Its armored like a 1939/40 tiger so to speak, way overly armored for it's time period, and it carries a gun that for it's time period
was sufficient to take out most things it would face in close to medium range engagements.
It just kind of stunk in the mobility area, heavy and slow even with 2 engines, but if they needed the epitome of haste, they had the tetrach
which was fast even by modern standards.

Why do you post this nonsense and try to promote disinformation?

Matilda II real life
Lower Hull Nose    78
Upper Hull Nose    47
Hull Front    75
Hull Sides Lower 25 + 40
Hull Sides Upper 70
Hull Rear 55
Hull Roof (Front) 20
Engine Deck    20
Hull Floor (Front half)    20
Hull Floor (Rear half) 13
Turret Front 75
Turret Roof    20
Turret Sides 75
Turret Rear    75

The ingame model is very close to that, and is not over that.


The only place it is over armored is the same place ALL tanks are over armored, which is the roof/deck surfaces
which got done a long time back when aircraft where shooting through them due to how the ammo was working and which will
when resources permit, be set back correctly across the board as that is no longer needed since we now have ammo that
behaves as it should in that aspect.

What frustrates people Merlin is that CRS is uneven and inconsistent in the way it applies equipment balancing mechanisms in the  game. 

There seems to be an insistence that the Matilda must be brought into the campaign in tier 0. There were very few Matilda Mk IIs in the  BOF yet it’s introduced in tier 0.  A tier where historically its primary threat has been sappers. Consequently it racks up a huge K/D. Now contrast that with the Tiger that by the same logic should be introduced in the tier corresponding to 1942. There were very few but they did exist. Instead CRS waits until the tier that corresponds to 1944. If that is what is needed to balance the beast out fine, but you are always going to get questions about why that same logic isn’t applied to the Matilda in tier 0. 

For that matter, the air war is similarly unbalanced and has been for well over a decade. One side has esentially curb stomped the other side until the air squads unsubbed and are now virtually nonexistant. Yet not a single unit has been slid around in tiers to assist or a new unit modeled to make things more competitive. 

The only thing CRS has done for the Axis (in a panic I might add) was to add more Tigers to the equation when the 4G was exposed after the truck FRU patch as being as POS for ZOC warfare. Even on that better options were presented such as moving all the heavy atgs to be spawnable in the depots so that the Axis would have same parody in knocking out Allied ZOCs the way the M1s could knock out 4Gs. This could have been a stop gap until some other solution was modeled in that tier for the Axis. Instead the number of Tigers was increased to compensate and Allies quit over it. 

Forget graphics, TOEs, and other dev concerns.  CRS failed on a basic level to provide balance for both sides.

Now player numbers are such that small shifts of one squad or another for a campaign dictate the course of the game. 

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the tiger actually comes in at T3, where everything stops currently.
Which is what makes T3 feel kind of off as anything that is post T2 lands in it all in a lump
Oh the factorys will cycle from here to eternity, but no further R&D happens after T3

It's a gift from the past that needs sent back, when resources allow, so we can have proper post T2 tiers
Also if fractional tiers can be done, it maybe could allow to get the tiger a more proper entry point combined with some other things that could also be applied to the matilda in T0, it could open the possibility anyways

 

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@minky Maybe the game map and tiers need to be rejiggered a bit .... who knows. The problem is always going to be that the French and Brits were routed off the mainland in rather decisive fashion IRL. So .... i am sure that would be the case if all weapon entry points were 100% accurate (in game as well). Problem with that is, the game has victory consitions that dictate that once that happens ... game is over.

So. Expand the map as it relates to England. Make the Allied factories reside there, or 2 out of 3 of them at least. Connect more towns across channel. Would certainley make air and naval game more interesting. Then if the Allies get pushed off mainland, they must reestablish foothold once US comes in. Only problem is maps could last forever in a standoff and ground play would be a yawner for periods of time.

It would certainly be a predictable opening of every campaign and i wonder how Allied players would react to getting rolled as almost a point of fact.

Edited by choad

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25 minutes ago, choad said:

@minky Maybe the game map and tiers need to be rejiggered a bit .... who knows. The problem is always going to be that the French and Brits were routed off the mainland in rather decisive fashion IRL. So .... i am sure that would be the case if all weapon entry points were 100% accurate (in game as well). Problem with that is, the game has victory consitions that dictate that once that happens ... game is over.

So. Expand the map as it relates to England. Make the Allied factories reside there, or 2 out of 3 of them at least. Connect more towns across channel. Would certainley make air and naval game more interesting. Then if the Allies get pushed off mainland, they must reestablish foothold once US comes in. Only problem is maps could last forever in a standoff and ground play would be a yawner for periods of time.

It would certainly be a predictable opening of every campaign and i wonder how Allied players would react to getting rolled as almost a point of fact.

You misunderstand. I’m not saying that everything should be historical in terms of introduction dates and equipment numbers. Although it would make for less arguments it probably wouldn’t make for good gameplay. 

The point that I was making was that CRS has not applied similar fixes for both sides even when the circumstances were extremely similar. They also failed to apply fixes to some problems even with over a decade of data at their disposal. Those failures have taken toll in terms raw player numbers. 

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1 hour ago, minky said:

You misunderstand. I’m not saying that everything should be historical in terms of introduction dates and equipment numbers. Although it would make for less arguments it probably wouldn’t make for good gameplay. 

The point that I was making was that CRS has not applied similar fixes for both sides even when the circumstances were extremely similar. They also failed to apply fixes to some problems even with over a decade of data at their disposal. Those failures have taken toll in terms raw player numbers. 

Well then you lost me. There are a ton of examples where things are "nerfed" or not historically accurate on Allied side ... as you probably know already. Maybe you were just trolling though.

Axis LMG

Axis Grenadier

British Grenadier neutered

US gets horse *bleep* french cmle 25

blah blah blah blah .... blah.

Good day sir

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The tier system should just be changed to each tier corresponding to 1 year.

So Tier 0 should be 1939, Tier 1 should be 1940, Tier 2 should be 1941, Tier 3 should be 1942 and so on.

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