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TuftyFoil

Nation Troops for the Low Countries (Belgium, Netherlands, & Luxembourg)

National troops for the low countries (Belgium, Netherlands, & Luxembourg)   15 members have voted

  1. 1. Should we have national troops for the low countries (Belgium, Netherlands, & Luxembourg)?


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15 posts in this topic

In WWII there were plenty of resistance fighter from these countries that fought with the allies as well as many who fought for the axis depending on circumstance. 

If we had national troops of these countries with their own little uniform and guns the game would be more realistic, complex, and interesting.

 If we had one or two small production facilities in each of these small countries when the axis or allies conquered/liberated the city the national troops would fight on their side.

 

 

For example, a possibility of how this could work is the the towns of Antwerp, Brussels, & Gent would produce national Belgian troops (probably mostly infantry) that would start by fighting on the allied side as they are allied towns are the beginning of the campaign. Say that if Brussels was captured by the Axis then the production of some (1/3) of Belgium troops would be controlled by the Axis and like the Italians would fight along side the axis. 

Possible locations could include but is not limited to Luxembourg City, Rotterdam, The Hauge, Amsterdam.

 

Also it would be interesting, realistic, and complex to include this to United Kingdom, France, and Germany. Say the allies captured a German production facility the production facility would produce German troops under allied control or vice versa such as what happened with Vinchy France.

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Especially with the new 1.36 I would like to see towns marked with their real country flag when allied owned. 

To the garissons you could add nations troops indeed. 

The alternative being offering it as a DLC option. 

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2 hours ago, TuftyFoil said:

Also it would be interesting, realistic, and complex to include this to United Kingdom, France, and Germany. Say the allies captured a German production facility the production facility would produce German troops under allied control or vice versa such as what happened with Vinchy France.

French troops under Vichy were not under Axis control, very far from it.

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The armistice after Germany defeated France in June 1940, included numerous provisions, all largely guaranteed by the German policy of keeping 2 million French prisoners of war in Germany, effectively as hostages. Although Vichy France was nominally in control of all of France--apart from Alsace Lorraine--in practice the Germans controlled over half of the country, including the northern and western coasts, the industrial northeast, and the Paris region. The Petain government in Vichy controlled the rest until October 1942, when Germany took it all over. At that point, the Vichy regime became entirely a puppet of the German occupiers. Germany wanted food, minerals, and industrial productions, as well as volunteers to work in German factories. Vichy was allowed to control its foreign colonies—to the extent it could defend them against the Free French—as well as its fleet, to the extent it could defend it against British naval attacks. The small town of Montoire-sur-le-Loir was the scene of two meetings. On October 22, 1940, Pierre Laval met with Hitler to set up a meeting on October 24 between Hitler and Pétain. It ended in a much-publicized handshake between the two, but in fact their discussions had been entirely general and no decisions had been made. Hitler was impressed with Petain's commitment to defend the French Empire. False rumours abounded that France had made major concessions regarding colonies and German control of French ports and the French feet

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3 hours ago, TuftyFoil said:

Also it would be interesting, realistic, and complex to include this to United Kingdom, France, and Germany. Say the allies captured a German production facility the production facility would produce German troops under allied control or vice versa such as what happened with Vinchy France.

Well, in reality, the Axis made use of darned little when france surrendered.
Sure they took and used/modified some existing armor units, but they did not really build any more of them, nor did they retool all the factories to make panzers.
They made nearly no use out of MAS, a few sub machineguns, and so forth.
They shut down more than they ever made use of.

They took food and minerals, but they never really got industrial production of any useful sort

It could work in game terms as a factory would simply produce it's owner's TOE
Though i dont know that it provides any benefit except needing to knock down 1 more target during RDP bombing?
 

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Belgium: absolutely. Their infantry was good, marred of course by weak generals and national strategic decision making, as was common on the Allied side.

The Belgian T13 SP AT gun was very cost effective...functionally similar to the German PzJg I, with more mobility.

Netherlands: sure, but their forces were mostly defensive and were very uneven. Overall, they had bad leadership, bad planning, and bad morale. If instead they're modeled in-game as equal to other armies in effectiveness, the ability of the Germans to accomplish what they did historically would be eliminated...because with a fully effective army and better national defense leadership and planning, fighting through the Netherlands would have been a very slow process for the 1940 Germans.

Luxembourg: their "army" in 1940 consisted of a single company of police with light weapons only, plus about a platoon of volunteer police, mostly untrained and unarmed. Not too powerful, in game terms.

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It would certainly be a nice touch to the remember the Allied effort by having some Belgian, Netherlands recognition and a couple of Canadian divs, Polish and Czech Raf squadrons etc.

The list is too long really to include them all but the Canadians made huge efforts in the cause. 

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The Poles manned a 1940-French-army infantry brigade that fought at Narvik, then in France, then in the Middle East; two infantry divisions that performed front line defense south of Sedan; a tank battalion armed with Hotchkiss tanks; two more infantry divisions, just being equipped and trained as of the German attack; and a further infantry brigade that was active in Syria and Libya.

The Czechoslovaks manned a 1940-French-army infantry "division", albeit with no artillery and minimal mortars and AA guns.

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Ahem, also Polish armored trains in UK, which patrolled coastal railroads. Would be interesting to use them in continental Europe in Tier 2. Of course if Axis does not take Dunkirk before it.

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1 Dutch division and 1 Belgian division would be nice in the early tiers, but would need to of course be supplemented by equal numbers of German divisions *cough* SS *cough* and beginning in Tier 1, Germans should get 1 Italian division as well. Luxembourg only fielded 700 combatants realistically and is not worth implementing.

Basically the layout would be as follows:

Tier 0:
British & French vs Germans

Tier 1:
British & French & Belgians & Dutch vs Germans & Italians
2 Belgian divisions and 1 Dutch division are acquired by the Allies. Axis get 2 SS divisions and 1 Italian division.

Tier 2:
British & French & Belgians & Dutch vs Germans & Italians
1 Belgian division dropped, 1 French division dropped, 2 more British divisions. Axis remain the same.

Tier 3:
British & French & USA & Belgians & Dutch & Free Poles vs Germans & Italians & Vichy French
All French ground forces bar 1 division replaced by Americans. Belgian & Dutch divisions remain the same. Allies gain 1 Polish division. Axis gain 1 division of Milice equipped with a mixture of French, British and German equipment.

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Rule. You should look at when and how much Canada put into the allied effort. When they declared war etc. To ignore them is dreadful. 

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Imho it would be cool if we  could start the campaign at real borders.

belgian garrisons in Belgium and uk + France required to move in through supply flags outside their borders (post 1.36)

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16 hours ago, rule303 said:

Tier 0:
British & French vs Germans

Tier 1:
British & French & Belgians & Dutch vs Germans & Italians

If the Belgians, Dutch, Free Poles and Free Czechs are going to be part of the game, they belong in Tier 0. That was their time of greatest historical participation. There's no historical basis for waiting to introduce them until Tier 1.

The Italians fought the French in France in 1940, and the British in Libya. There's no historical basis for waiting to introduce them until Tier 1, either.

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Axis get 2 SS divisions

When CRS first formulated the game, it was effectively illegal under German and French laws to depict Shutzstaffel units in games such that an atmosphere of favorable commentary might be created around those game-units. CRS wanted to be able to advertise their game in those nations, so they avoided the Shutzstaffel question. I'm not aware that those laws have changed.

Quote

Tier 2:
1 Belgian division dropped, 1 French division dropped, 2 more British divisions.

That makes no historical sense. If the Belgians and French aren't defeated in 1940, and hold off the Germans through 1941, why would they unilaterally retire a sizeable part of their armies in 1942? Because they're bored, and think it'd be more convenient to have the British do their fighting for them?

Quote

Tier 3:
Free Poles ... Allies gain 1 Polish division.

As above, that makes no historical sense, either. The available Poles were part of the war from 1940, fighting in Polish units under French overall command.

Quote

 

Vichy French

Axis gain 1 division of Milice equipped with a mixture of French, British and German equipment.

 

That really makes no sense. If the French are fighting on as France, there is no "Vichy France". 

Quote

All French ground forces bar 1 division replaced by Americans.

Same as above for the Tier 2 Belgians. If the French are fighting for their country, and haven't been defeated, why would they unilaterally quit fighting? Why would American troops even be involved, if the available French, British, Belgian and Dutch troops have been sufficient to hold off the Germans for the first three years of the war?

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19 hours ago, rotsechs said:

Rule. You should look at when and how much Canada put into the allied effort. When they declared war etc. To ignore them is dreadful. 

Their equipment is largely identical to the British effectively that it probably wouldn't appear as diverse, as say the Dutch, Belgians and Poles were. I think Canadians can be effectively covered by a growth in British unit numbers.

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The Dutch fought with their own gear. Ditto the Belgians. Both armies had some good weaponry, and other aspects that were uncompetitive.

The Poles and Czechs fought using French equipment.

The Canadians were armed essentially like the British in 1940, but later became more differentiated.

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