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Zebbeee

Spawning overhaul

17 posts in this topic

<  Brainstorming >

Starting point is our large map USP and its capability to host many players.

However we have inheritated from a spawn system which is paradoxicaly extremely rigid and fails to keep a good balance between cautious tactics and fast-paced-action.

As a long-time player I feel that it would be the right move to try out the following concepts:

 

1. Allow to dynamically change the target of our current mission

You join a "team", no longer a "mission". This should improve team cohesion when moving from a succeeded/failed objective to another.

 

2. Allow a mission sortie to be started from any spawn origin available to our side

Mission (team) members should be free to chose where they should spawn from to achieve their objective or get as quickly back to their place. ML could still (optionaly) limit the available options for team control.

 

3. Instant sortie respawn

Why are we forcing players to go back to the menu each time they press escape? If conditions are met (equipment and spawn availability), give us the option to let us instantly restart our sortie. You can still apply an extra spawn delays when any.

1539570937-respawn-system.png

It would be even better with a popup showing some of the ready room information and allowing us to change spawn origin (see suggestion n°2) abd weapon before respawning.

 

4. Shared FMSs and FRUs

FMS and FRU should become AO-centered objects to be shared - hence available from the ready room (see suggestion n°2) - between all missions. Some teams could specialize on setting up advanced spawns for the whole AO.

 

5. New use of depots: covered FRU deployment area

Make depots non-spawnable but let Mission leaders deploy a FRU inside any friendly-owned depot building (radio on the floor; spawn point could still be upstairs), whatever distance from an enemy cp.

With rules n°2 and 4, these would immediately be available as spawns for all missions, as long as these stands up. 

Depots should become real ZOCs in town for both sides; no longer a magical flood faucet.

 

6. Replace ABs and FBs by HC-placed spawns

Let sides chose how they deploy their heavy armor on the map, and remove the attacker/defender mode. Towns would define territority control limits but would behave as no-man's-land for army troops. Rules to be discussed. 

 

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About the depot spawning removal:

 

Starting point is my personal intuition that depot spawning has hindered the combined arms experience since players stopped leaving as organized groups from AB/FB.

Taking the latest opinions and gameplay changes into account, my new suggestion is to keep depots unavailable for both sides until the AB has fallen:

- defenders: all remaining depots then become available

- attackers: owned (linked) spawnables then become available

The .fallback command also offers interesting tactical opportunities thanks to the upcoming garrisons that will keep old supplies available upon AB recapture. Pre-camp would therefore become hard to achieve.

As an expected consequence, battles become defined by groups of players focused on flag control while the former AB camping becomes less of an issue. The increased fear of death for defenders should also improve the whole battle experience as they would more likely settle stronghold  places with PPOs around defensive FMSs

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I believe the mobile spawns have caused far more havoc with teamwork than anything else introduced into the game.  Folks no longer have to work together to get to an objective whether attacking or defending, (with depot spawning being at least a partial culprit on the defensive side).  I realize I am sounding like the grouch of the group, and you SHOULD stay off my lawn, ;)  but in the days before FMS, attackers would arrive 5-10 at a time/truck (or tank), and battles happened.  Now, an FMS is set up, the ant trail of INF begins its battle with time, as eventually the FMS might get found and destroyed--------but the battles that ensue are 1 on 1, or 2 on 2------piecemeal affairs that pale in comparison with the battles 'back in the day'.  (my opinion only).

 

I do not, however, see a way around this.  The quick arrival to battle without having to worry about your truck being shot up with a load of INF on board-genie has been let out of the bottle, and most likely cannot be put back in.  If FMS are to stay, and I believe they must, then spawning at depots becomes a must, or attackers would have a ridiculous advantage.

 

S!

Edited by augetout
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On 05/11/2018 at 10:00 AM, augetout said:

I believe the mobile spawns have caused far more havoc with teamwork than anything else introduced into the game.  Folks no longer have to work together to get to an objective whether attacking or defending, (with depot spawning being at least a partial culprit on the defensive side).  I realize I am sounding like the grouch of the group, and you SHOULD stay off my lawn, ;)  but in the days before FMS, attackers would arrive 5-10 at a time/truck (or tank), and battles happened.  Now, an FMS is set up, the ant trail of INF begins its battle with time, as eventually the FMS might get found and destroyed--------but the battles that ensue are 1 on 1, or 2 on 2------piecemeal affairs that pale in comparison with the battles 'back in the day'.  (my opinion only).

 

I do not, however, see a way around this.  The quick arrival to battle without having to worry about your truck being shot up with a load of INF on board-genie has been let out of the bottle, and most likely cannot be put back in.  If FMS are to stay, and I believe they must, then spawning at depots becomes a must, or attackers would have a ridiculous advantage.

 

S!

Thanks for the comment and I agree with your description of the current situation.

The equation is complex indeed but, since defenders can deploy defensive FMS faster, I don't think attackers would have an overwhelmin advantage if we removed depot spawning.

Best IMO would be that a FMS/FRU becomes a RE-spawn point. While manned truck/plane/cargo deployed as MSPs let new players spawn but with limited supplies (e.g. 16/32/96 respectively)

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8 hours ago, augetout said:

I believe the mobile spawns have caused far more havoc with teamwork than anything else introduced into the game.  Folks no longer have to work together to get to an objective whether attacking or defending, (with depot spawning being at least a partial culprit on the defensive side).  I realize I am sounding like the grouch of the group, and you SHOULD stay off my lawn, ;)  but in the days before FMS, attackers would arrive 5-10 at a time/truck (or tank), and battles happened.  Now, an FMS is set up, the ant trail of INF begins its battle with time, as eventually the FMS might get found and destroyed--------but the battles that ensue are 1 on 1, or 2 on 2------piecemeal affairs that pale in comparison with the battles 'back in the day'.  (my opinion only).

 

I do not, however, see a way around this.  The quick arrival to battle without having to worry about your truck being shot up with a load of INF on board-genie has been let out of the bottle, and most likely cannot be put back in.  If FMS are to stay, and I believe they must, then spawning at depots becomes a must, or attackers would have a ridiculous advantage.

 

S!

FMS = steady trickle of troops reaching town over a short period of time.

Hot Drops or Truck drops like the past deliver 5-10 troops quick BUT..........the time it takes to load up make another trip is just to long, not to mention the chance of getting spotted and an AA gun can easily take it out not to mention waiting tanks and the like.  

FMS is here to stay Im sure.  Its a better concept than no FMS's and going back to truck troop delivery. With the current population it the most viable solution.

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13 hours ago, Zebbeee said:

Starting point is my personal intuition that depot spawning has hindered the combined arms experience since players stopped leaving as organized groups from AB/FB.

 

100% correct. One of the worst things ever to happen to this game.

And besides, spawn at the capture point => nonstop spawn camping.

As it is (and has been for the last decade+), this game amounts to "I spawncamp you before you spawncamp me." Dynamic, realistic battlefield experience is the exception not the rule.

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Im not a big fan of depot spawning but where would armor,atg's,trucks spawn?

If they are limited to only AB then it goes back to AB camping.

Rear FBs would solve this i think.

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If attackers only have FMSs to attack from, and if defenders can set defensive ones (from rear fbs or anticipatively), not sure they will succeed their camp... 

if AB falls or if defenders .fallback, all depots are opened. 

No one would ever pre-camp with 1.36 which is about real leadership 

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I like this UI design concept, it makes a lot of sense. 

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Well I think the FMS needs a redesign and actually a simple one to be all honest , the Flag itself needs to be on the inside against the exit door. 

Now only a Truck can set a real FMS and I still say a truck should be able to set 2 or 3 spawnable FMS at a time and the troopers upon spawn in they get an option between the set FMS 1-2 or 3 depending how many were set.  Now back to what i wanted to say a Engineer can build fake FMSes they look the same as the real deal without the flag on the inside. That way it be way harder to pin point a spawnable FMS would cut the camping down and the Flyboys would have a harder time to ID an FMS too ,right now all they need to see is that flag on the outside and they have a positive ID and they can bomb it.

But the setting of multiple spawn points by one Truck  coupled that with Flags on the inside and the possibility of Engineers setting fake FMS along with the ATG bunkers would make it rather interesting in my opinion.

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On 11/5/2018 at 0:49 AM, Zebbeee said:

About the depot spawning removal:

 

Starting point is my personal intuition that depot spawning has hindered the combined arms experience since players stopped leaving as organized groups from AB/FB.

Taking the latest opinions and gameplay changes into account, my new suggestion is to keep depots unavailable for both sides until the AB has fallen:

- defenders: all remaining depots then become available

- attackers: owned (linked) spawnables then become available

The .fallback command also offers interesting tactical opportunities thanks to the upcoming garrisons that will keep old supplies available upon AB recapture. Pre-camp would therefore become hard to achieve.

As an expected consequence, battles become defined by groups of players focused on flag control while the former AB camping becomes less of an issue. The increased fear of death for defenders should also improve the whole battle experience as they would more likely settle stronghold  places with PPOs around defensive FMSs

Hmm, I think this is a pipe dream.  Instead, people will just race to AB camping positions like they used to, and that will be that.   Might get OJ back if you got rid of AOs too.

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That said I really like the UI idea and think it is a great way to streamline the game! I think the idea of being associated with a specific mission and then choosing where to spawn from is an interesting idea and worth looking into.

As for depots, let us recall the reason why depot spawning was implemented: it was as a way to make precamping harder like Kilemall said. The basic premise is give players the ability to spawn elsewhere in town so when a Char or Matty roll into the AB its not a massacre. I think the days of trucking infantry as a group to a town/CP would only work if you had insta-capping tables like the old days, since the amount of time it takes to get from an FB vs the defender to run from the AB is very small. As far as eliminating depots I see one major issue with this: you can have players spawning in "non-linked" depots on the opposite side of town away from the front.

My own personal bias is one of the larger issues we have in WWIIOL tactically leading to poor teamwork and more individualism is that you can create spawns in a 360-degree ring around a enemy town, even from the part of town facing away from the front which would normally be considered "behind enemy lines." Since it can be hard to create a fully-manned front line the game mechanics, especially with mobile spawning, cater more to the strategy of trying to slip around town and plant mobile spawns along odd attack vectors that would never exist in real life.

Hence its more a game of individuals trying to "sneak in through the back door" rather than organized teamwork to punch a hole through the defenders lines.

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Armies garrisoned in a town in a hostile zone can not really be camped in an armybase in real life.
They do not even have a base, they would mostly likely be dispersed through out the town, with their various duties etc.
And some even set up outside the town, the help secure and control the area.

The game needs an AB, because you have to have a tangible game object to signify that you own, or have lost something
that loses or gains you control, etc.
But while the game needs that as a strat mechanism, you still need something, in this case the depots, to give the people actually playing some kind of dispersion
through the town.

Entering an occupied town was a messy thing, you did not know from where something might come from to oppose you, and the depot spawning
serves in that role in some fashion.

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I do agree that the spawning paradigm needs changing and needs to be organically organizing. 

However, I think you are looking at the wrong aspect of the problem.

 

Two major issues with spawning-

1) Game uses the spawn castle paradigm- capture the spot, stop or start the spawning.  Therefore our fights end up revolving around depots, bunkers, bases, FMS and FBs.  Good thing is it clearly creates a desirable objective with real pain to either you or your enemy depending on who controls it, and a clear paradigm throughout the game.  Bad part is it creates a spawn castle fight all the time, which makes the character of our ground fights urban at least 75% of the time, and rewards infiltration tactics and the Axis kit is not really built for armor assault at least through the first two tiers.

 

2) Mission based spawning tied so hard to one mission/one spawn and the loss of spawn kills the mission effectively or literally, fractures organization as people abandon whatever 'natural' org would arise around it.  Multiple missions means multiple markers and supposed leaders, only leaders often don't take care of their spawns or particularly lead, and if they do want to lead an attack or a recap they have to leave their spawn to do so. 

 

My solution to all of the above is

 

  • Go from 'join a mission/spawn only here' to a Task Force 'spawn multiple places/supply sources' all on one TF map, so you join a TF rather then a mission and you have a TF leader that is coordinating activity.  Squads could be their own TF and exclude, or adhoc TFs could be formed from operational groups, a 94th type org, or an HC leading an operation.  Multiple TFs can be on an AO or DO.  TF selects which AO/DO they are on and can switch.  TF commander gets all spawnlist feeds for supply state impinging on the AO/DO.  TF subsumes the default target channel for most players- this will help with new players so they aren't so lost when an AO moves on.
  • Code an AO/DO commander, who takes the position whether HC, HC selected or some KOTH mechanism.  Commander gets tools only he gets including special views and gets autolinked both to HC channels if they aren't HC, and the TFs associated with the AO/DO.  Automatic ingame command/comm system.
  • Randomized area spawning- basically FMS can be set up as the center of an area units using the spawn can spawn in at.  Probably the spawn setup guy could set the size of the area, tight and specific to say any open area within 200m.  AB/FB might still be the only heavy location otherwise it would get weird quickly, but everything else would be a lot more survivable.

 

In a longer range change for say WWIIOL 2.0, it would be lovely for a leader to build his TF from whatever points he earns as a player and a leader, we really get that tactical leader persona rather then X rank gets Y better toy, and we still get the toybox solve your own war system but with organic leadership invested in the solution and results.

 

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9 hours ago, Kilemall said:

Hmm, I think this is a pipe dream.  Instead, people will just race to AB camping positions like they used to, and that will be that.   Might get OJ back if you got rid of AOs too.

You are right thinking so. As is Merlin and others. 

But remind that to succeed the attackers need a well coordinated group of players. 50% of players (minimum) having a blast is IMO still a better ROI than what we have now. Most players go on defensive mission , so if they they leave mostly from AB you also offer them better combined arms coordination.

Furthermore we have much more features that prevent efficient camping (ews, AO bunker timer, smoke grenades, PPOs, FMSs)

Also, as soon as the AB falls the depots would be opened with an access to the same garrison supply. The HC could eventually also open these by a .haac command but with counterparts.

we are using the fear of rare emergency situations to kill our combined arms teamwork concept. 

This is just my personal opinion and your thoughts are very important to let me understand how the game is perceived by the old/new playerbase, so please arguments are welcome.

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On 05/11/2018 at 7:00 AM, augetout said:

I do not, however, see a way around this.  The quick arrival to battle without having to worry about your truck being shot up with a load of INF on board-genie has been let out of the bottle, and most likely cannot be put back in.  If FMS are to stay, and I believe they must, then spawning at depots becomes a must, or attackers would have a ridiculous advantage.

S!

There is a solution around this.

When you are at an transport vehicle and you despawn, the soldier will stay at the vehicle. If you spawn with a new soldier and join this vehicle again and despawn there again, the vehicle will now have 2 soldiers.

Players are able to spawn as one of the soldiers at this vehicle, and the vehicle can be moving or whatever (it doenst need to be stationary).

This do at least three important things:

1-Players can spawn closer to battle (and in a non gimmicky way), this helps new players (or old) players that can't handle long distances yet. This also solve the

2-This makes transport vehicles meaningful, since you now have to use it as a transport vehicle. This is done by solving the chicken and egg problem when no one join a transport vehicle because there is no one waiting for them and no one wait for people to join transport vehicles because there wont be any player that will want to wait until enought players join the vehicle.

3-Increase imersion and reduce the amount of MIA soldiers, if there is an transport vehicle somewhere and you want to leave the game, instead of despawning and going mia (and character magically disappearing, a not immersive thing) you can go to the vehicle and despawn there, the soldier will continue to be inside the vehicle and other player is able to spawn as this guy, so the guy didn't magically disappeared.

 

I already posted this idea before, and I think its one of the 3 most important ideas* that should be implemented at the game AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE (mostly because of the first important thing I said it would bring to the game).

 

* I wont talk in detail about the other two most important ideas at my opinion but they are: 1-Ability to multicrew with some vehicle already at the battle. 2-Ability to spawn as someone trying to despawn (you will start with same heath, ammo,.... as him)

Edited by exdeath6

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I still haven't read well the thread but your picture about respawning that shows immediately the results and offers to respawn the player with one click still on the world, would definably be a quality of life improvement.

For that you have my thumbs up :D !

Edited by pbveteran

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