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krazydog

Will garrison flags look different than movable flags?

29 posts in this topic

How will we be able to distinguish garrison flags from normal movable flags on the strategic map?

I don’t see any difference in size or color.  

I think it will be important for the flags to be clearly distinguishable from each other at a zoomed out scale - so we dont have to mouse over, or click on, every single flag on the map to understand the big picture of the campaign.

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As of this very moment, the flags themselves look the same, but you can highlight your mouse over the town for details. Garrisons of course don’t move.

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Each garrison and each supply flag still has a sky-blue bullet attached to it . So, as soon as you move a brigade in a garrison, you'll see two bullets (or more). Look at the screenshot 

closerup.jpg

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Yes, I see that Zebb but it is a bit difficult to read the map that way.  It will be really hard to look at the webmap from smartphones out of game - which is what I do all the time right now.

The map might be easier to read by making the garrison flags smaller or a different color.

Or even no garrison flags at all - it is undestood that towns on frontline and the backline towns have supply in them.  

The movable flags should be clearly distinguished from the garrison flags I think - (if it is technically possible to do that of course).

CRS might want to think about it.

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Honestly I think that differentiating garrison flags from brigade flags will make things confusing for new players. It's hard enough for players to figure out where to go now. Yes it may be more difficult for HC but I think that the difference between mousing over to see what brigade vs garrison is there is no different that towns now with multiple brigades.

The "click on town > join mission > spawn in" model is what we need, and the interface to do that should be as simple as possible.

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4 hours ago, aismov said:

Honestly I think that differentiating garrison flags from brigade flags will make things confusing for new players. It's hard enough for players to figure out where to go now. Yes it may be more difficult for HC but I think that the difference between mousing over to see what brigade vs garrison is there is no different that towns now with multiple brigades.

The "click on town > join mission > spawn in" model is what we need, and the interface to do that should be as simple as possible.

Why?  I am assuming garrison flags will have less supply than movable flag supply. - Something like HC flag supply.

What  is confusing about having a smaller flag in size for a garisson flag than a bigger flag for the movable flags with more supply in them?

That extra visual information on the strategic map will be useful info for everyone.  

People already compain about the complexity of the learning curve for new players.  I am just talking about some simplification of the user interface - things that will make the strategic map more user friendly, and easier to read for everyone.  That is all.

cheers!

KD -XO - 91st

Edited by krazydog

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25 minutes ago, krazydog said:

Why?  I am assuming garrison flags will have less supply than movable flag supply. - Something like HC flag supply.

You haven't been keeping up with a lot of the announcements for 1.36. Pretty much all of them have made it clear: Garrisons will be the primary supply pool going forward. Moveable brigades, in comparison, will definitely has less supply. Garrisons, in an abstract sense, will represent frontline military units. Moveable brigades, also in an abstract sense, will represent freed-up elements that can be shifted along the front to supplement the existing forces already there (garrisons).

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37 minutes ago, chaoswzkd said:

You haven't been keeping up with a lot of the announcements for 1.36. Pretty much all of them have made it clear: Garrisons will be the primary supply pool going forward. Moveable brigades, in comparison, will definitely has less supply. Garrisons, in an abstract sense, will represent frontline military units. Moveable brigades, also in an abstract sense, will represent freed-up elements that can be shifted along the front to supplement the existing forces already there (garrisons).

What?  That is not what I have been hearing.  Garrison flags will have more supply than movable flags?  REALLY????

Looking the FAQ about 1.36 the Rats saud the ratio of supply between garrison flags and movable flags still has not been determined yet.

If garrison flags have more supply than movabke flags, then that would kill the strategic level of this game  (if that is true).  And I don’t think I would like that much...

The only thing that has kept me playing (and paying) this old wargame for over a decade has been the strategic level of this game.

CRS be careful not to alienate your old loyal niche customer base  with this big patch!

Edited by krazydog

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43 minutes ago, krazydog said:

What?  That is not what I have been hearing.  Garisson flags will have more supply than movable flags?  Really????

A compilation of quotes about Garrison supply vs. Brigade supply

From forums.wwiionline.com/forums/topic/415373-136-vital-questions/

(Please ignore that the formatting is broken)

Quote
  1. What problems will a hybrid brigade system solve? It's still going to require skilled HC on 24/7
    • The hybrid supply system (I'd call it that) will solve many issues. First, no, it will not require HC online 24/7, which is the primary goal. Second, because all frontline and one rear town adjacent to the frontline will have supply in it (referred to as garrison supply), we can see the player base having a fighting chance routinely against an opposing offensive... so there is a fighting chance, ALWAYS. Third, with our AO plan (proximity based) we give freedom back to the players and their most followed leadership to produce organic outcomes. Fourth, the role of HC is still important because THEY will be charged with moving supplement brigade supply (not nearly as overpowering as it is today) but still enough to help punch a hole in the lines and create some dynamic game play.

 

Quote
  1. What will the ratio of town supply to flag supply be? Will towns have more supply than flags, equal? or less?
    • This has not yet been determined. Remember, flags are only going to be move-able, supplemental supply however.

 

Quote
  1. Will hybrid flags remove link between orbat and supply?
    • There will be garrison supply as described and supplemental move-able flags. The hybrid part refers to the "Hybrid Supply System," which means there's a combination of static supply at towns that are not move-able, and then there are flags which can be moved. Garrison supply and Flag supply are entirely different. Flag supply moves independently however HC wishes, and they bolster Garrison (town) supply by what ever values (supply numbers) we assign to the flag(s). This of course does not interfere with or effect overstocking, though depending on how crazy the players get we may have to set some sort of overstocking limitations, unless we want 300 Panzers rolling onto a town... though that does sound pretty cool .

 

Quote

Flags and Supply:

  1. How many flags will there be?
    • Undetermined at this time. Enough for flexibility and variety, not enough to be overpowering.

 

Quote
  1. Will there be any stacking limits?
    • Yes. Remember as well, these new flags, will not be as mighty and game changing as they are today.

 

Quote

 

  1. Can town supply be used to restock/overstock movable brigades?
    • No. Brigades are going to be supplemental and independent, garrison supply will be the primary hub of supply.

 

From other sources:

https://www.wwiionline.com/game-news/development-notes/1-36-dev-update-july

Quote

Movable flags as we currently have in the game will still exist, though in a reduced number with greatly reduced supply. Any given Garrison will have more supply than a movable flag. This eliminates the burden placed on High Command to ensure that supply is available for their Side in order to fight, but keeping the movable flags will continue to allow High Command to affect the strategic layer of the game with clever deployments.

 

There's this Rat Chat as well where we go into it, but I can't be arsed to find timestamps because my internet is 76 kBps right now and life is pain. And before anyone goes all ye olde dial-up on me, I grew up with 2.6 kBps, because we're in the boondocks of the boondocks, and that didn't change until like 2012 while I was at university.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rsaYds3WuKM



So I honestly don't know how you missed it. I'm also not sure why you think it's a bad thing. This is the only way to actually reduce the burden of keeping the game running on HC and ensure that the players can always spawn into the game and do what they want to do. The brigades will still exist to be used by HC to affect the strategic layer of the game. If there are any issues that arise from this, they'll be sorted out as supply is literally the lifeblood of the gameplay in WWIIOL, so you might be jumping the gun on all the doom and gloom.

Edited by chaoswzkd

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Take a look at the top of 1.36 Vital Questions FAQ thread at the topnof this forum - I just checked it again right now:

QUOTE

What will the ratio of town supply to flag supply be? Will towns have more supply than flags, equal? or less?

  • This has not yet been determined. Remember, flags are only going to be move-able, supplemental supply howeve

UNQUOTE

Also I have talked to some Playtesters for the Rats.  I was told the supply of garrisons was going to be even less than HQ flags.

So I don’t know whats true now.

Edited by krazydog

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Just now, krazydog said:

Take a look at the 1.36 FAQ thread in this forum - I just checked it again right now:

What will the ratio of town supply to flag supply be? Will towns have more supply than flags, equal? or less?

  • This has not yet been determined. Remember, flags are only going to be move-able, supplemental supply howeve

Also I have talked to some Playtesters for the Rats.  I was told the supply of garrisons was going to be even less than HQ flags.

So I don’t know whats true now.

Yes, "supplemental supply". As in "the brigade supply will supplement garrison supply". That's also an earlier part of the Q&A which I already quoted, and later entries in the Q&A clarify this, which I have also quoted. Whoever said they were told the supply of garrisons would be less was ill-informed because this decision was made almost from the get-go.

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You guys will kill this game if you kill the strategic level of this game.

The strategic level of this game is the only thing that makes WW2 Online unique from the other WW2 online shooters.  

Edited by krazydog

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Yes, the strategic layer of the game is extremely important, which is why brigade supply will remain, and overstock's importance is being highlighted and showcased, garrison supply being available also putting more control in squads' hands to use to run their own ops, etc. Just because Brigade supply won't be the driving force doesn't mean the strategic layer is somehow dying.

 

It's not like CRS isn't 12000% aware of the only reasons it has any paying customers at all when there are a plethora of modern WW2 FPS competitors out there. It's a unique game, a unique experience, a unique community. Keeping that strong and making it stronger is absolutely what CRS is focusing on. Fixing some of the issues in the game by implementing Hybrid Supply is intended to do just that.

Edited by chaoswzkd

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15 hours ago, krazydog said:

What?  That is not what I have been hearing.  Garrison flags will have more supply than movable flags?  REALLY????

Looking the FAQ about 1.36 the Rats saud the ratio of supply between garrison flags and movable flags still has not been determined yet.

If garrison flags have more supply than movabke flags, then that would kill the strategic level of this game  (if that is true).  And I don’t think I would like that much...

The only thing that has kept me playing (and paying) this old wargame for over a decade has been the strategic level of this game.

CRS be careful not to alienate your old loyal niche customer base  with this big patch!

While chaos confirmed that the information is not new, I'll confirm that, yes, *that* layer of strategic part of the game can be reduced with the hybrid system of 1.36, precisely to remove pressure on HC and put focus on rebuilding team-based operations and squads. Furthermore there is also an expectation from steam players to access heavy equipment more easily or more often. 

However CRS will monitor the evolution and maybe we can expect brigades to get a more important role/impact at a later stage.

Remind the next step is an overhaul of AOs, which will greatly help leadership initiatives. But that will work only if enough supplies can be found anywhere on map  

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Well with all the changes CRS is introducing,  its probably time to call the game “WW1 Online” and not “WW2 online”

Everything new we  are doing is to slow down the flow of campaigns:   (Hardening of fbs, underpop timers, softcap rules, heavy garrison supply, etc...).

We are starting to make this game a trench warfare game - slow and boring.  

Not to mention dragging out the agony of the losing side that is ready to start a fresh campaign a month before the end of every campaign lately.

Am I wrong about this?

Edited by krazydog

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Just now, krazydog said:

Well with all the changes CRS is introducing,  its probably time to call the game “WW1! Online” and not “WW2 online”

Everything new we  are doing is to slow down the flow campaigns.  

We are starting to make this game a trench warfare game - slow and boring.  

Not to mention dragging out the agony of the losing side that is ready to start a fresh campaign a month before the end of every canoaign.

Am I wrong about this?

Yes, you are wrong about it. It's not going to be WW1 Online by any means. Garrisons will be attritable. There won't be doom stacks of supply like we see currently with whole divisions slugging it out with other divisions. There will be frontline supply, and backline supply to use for reinforcements and overstock. There will be smaller brigades that HC can use to supplement attacks and defenses. If anything you should be seeing less pound-your-head-against-a-wall gameplay than we have seen with 2-4 brigades fighting 2-4 brigades. Each town will be a battle, but they won't be slogfests unless players spend time manually driving and dumping supply in their respective garrisons to hold or press the line.

The objective isn't to slow down the campaign, the objective is to eliminate the need for an increasingly absent/burnt-out HC to play 24/7 desk jockey shuffling flags around for the game to be playable, to eliminate the risk of no HC presence on one side for an hour or two allowing the other side to make massive cuts with softcaps, to eliminate softcap gameplay itself, etc. Cuts and surrenders will still be a thing, but attackers will have to fight for it, and defenders will have every real opportunity to stop it.

Yes, it will slow down a campaign as a side effect of this, but the goal is to increase the amount of action the players experience, lessen the burden on HC, ensure players can always actually play, etc. Those are all real issues in the game right now today that will be solved with Hybrid Supply.

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I think garrison supply is ok - if the objective is to fill in the gaps for HC: to allow the playerbase to use it to cover an hour or two gap when no HC is online in Tz3.  That is fine.

But you guys are talking about a very powerful garrison supply system  - with more supply than the movable hc flags have.  

You are trying to supersede the need for hc and movable flags. 

That is not a good thing IMHO. 

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All I can ask is that you wait to actually experience it and see before you convince yourself it'll be all your worst fears realized. Maybe you're right, but maybe you're wrong. If there are issues, we'll move to fix. Keep in mind this will coincide with trying to build HC back up, and if that campaign is successful it's definitely possible that garrisons vs brigades could see a shift in power down the line, or even sooner if the initial design really isn't working for the playerbase.

Just hold your final thoughts on it until it's in your hands to play with, please, and keep in mind that no one wants to see WWIIOL succeed more than CRS and especially the volunteers (like myself) that spend what little free time they can scrounge together to work on it out of love for the game.

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I will give the changes a try before expressing my final thoughts.

I have expressed my concerns as I see things now.  I just ask you guys to give what I said some thought too.

 

Edited by krazydog

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10 hours ago, krazydog said:

I will give the changes a try before expressing my final thoughts.

I have expressed my concerns as I see things now.  I just ask you guys to give what I said some thought too.

 

From what I know of 1.36 so far, I believe you are right that HC will no longer decide where we DO NOT spawn as where should the frontline be sacrificed because of no supplies; if this is what you meant by « strategic layer ». Yes, map will less depend on attrition since you start all over again at each town. But maybe Ohm will drastically reduce numbers, who knows yet.

 

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Few people outside of hardcore HC players cared about the strategic layer as the true core of the game. But tons of players got mad when HC decided to pull back from a town their squad just spent 4+ hours heroically defending in order to "stabilize the front."

Pulling back was the right move because of the gameplay mechanics but it traded the gameplay enjoyment of the many for the few in HC.

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12 hours ago, Zebbeee said:

Yes, map will less depend on attrition since you start all over again at each town.

That is not 100% accurate.

If you run a gambit, and you pull everything possible from the surrounding areas to hold the line, and you LOSE.
If the opposition has played smart, and has the materials and resources and planning, they could potentially punch a pocket into you 2 towns deep
before your pulled supply can recover.

If you pull from towns B and C to hold A and lose, B and C don't suddenly go to full supply again.

And that strategy will be run by the guys on the ground, and the squads, and wont rely on any one particular person to be logged in to make it happen.

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That's a good point. I think players who weren't there "back in the day" may find it difficult to see how you can punch a hole in the line, but it happend relatively often when you drained supply from adjacent town, lost, and now we're forced to defend the next town with a half-depleted spawn pool.

Actually that was one of the classic moves done by squads on both sides. Set up ATGs and tanks at contested town but don't push heavy with infantry. Hold a CP in town and wear down the armor. In the mean time you had your resupply ambush teams ready for the resupply to happen and crush that. After most tanks were gone you would push on the AB, cap it, and immediately attack the next town.

You could tell by the type of armor that was spawned. Vickers and truck trying to pull ATGs out of the AB was gr really the signal for the all out infantry push. I can tell you it wasn't fun trying to defend the ne t town with nothing but Rifles and Panzer IIs!

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57 minutes ago, aismov said:

I can tell you it wasn't fun trying to defend the ne t town with nothing but Rifles and Panzer IIs!

Amazingly enough though, sometimes it did happen, specially when someone had the foresight to pull 88's out in advance
and tuck them away in good positions.
Still made for a tough defensive fight though as the PZII's were only useful as anti truck and infantry, with the 88's and pak36's
taking on nearly all of the anti armor role making them become high value air targets.
Sappers had usually gotten mostly depleted in the previous attack attempt, and ATR's did little but tickle the T0 french armor.

Sometimes though fate smiled on you, and the day was saved.
You'd see a squad like the 31st WC come in running panzers from like 6 towns away.
And even if you were on the losing end of that, it was awesome to see 30 40 or more units rolling in
with support units

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6 towns maybe a stretch but we certainly would do 2 towns back if necessary. I remember many a panzer run from towns back only to turn to a new target because the town had just fallen in the middle of a resupply Rush.

Edited by aismov

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