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major0noob

"generating activity" game philosophy/attitude, can it be directed to the FMS

135 posts in this topic

2 minutes ago, kase250 said:

I can think of two things:

-The defenders did their job well

the sum of my argument is this is too easy.

 

after i gave up on setting FMS's all that was left was going to AO's (the trucks kept dieing regardless of our ZoC) or join DO's. at the DO's it was easy to kill attacks before they even started

this was me lone wolfing vs organized people with leadership. if there were more than 2 of us the attack's got one up.

 

the defenders don't need skill leadership or teamwork to succeed, truck hunting is easy. it was child's play with 3min build times

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On 11/25/2018 at 10:21 AM, aismov said:

And I think that the major culprit in all of the above is enemy knowledge where you will attack. Just my own two cents, but I think the AO has been the bane of the game since it was first introduced. It removed the need for defenders to actually defend and keep an eye out for things going along the front, and it made the job of attackers infinitely harder since it is clear as day where the action was going to be. Toss AO limits and the need for HCs to place (and have the power to pull) an AO. I could be wrong but I think AOs was always something holding the game back.

Will there be surprises and pre-camps? Yeah. Moling large cities? Yeah. But I think that a lot of the faults in the old system were intermittent while currently they are more constant.

This difference between intermittency and persistence is an important distinction. Many intermittent issues can be fixed such as breaking up large cities to minimize moling, or rear FBs and depot/FMS spawning to blunt the precamp. But you can never fundamentally escape HC control and the limitations Map OIC availability and personal decision making which may not align with the players/squads.

Ultinately HC/AO are two sides of the same coin and squads can't have the flexibility and tactical initiative they require. Dont't get me wrong. There is a very important role for both HCs and the signaling benefits AOs provide. No system will ever be perfect and we have to pick our poison. The question becomes which is the lesser of two evils?

The game was pretty damn great back in 2005 under the old rules. Not perfect. But fun.

Real big problems with AO elimination.

Doesn't force the big fights where the game pops.

Early going pop differential rarely exceeded 30%, now it does all the time.  Overpop in no AO means a bunch of overrun towns and two week campaigns.

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On 11/25/2018 at 11:33 AM, aismov said:

But how then do we get around the issue of HC? They remain the gatekeepers to play. There is all this effort going in to give squads more ability to play and initiative, yet at the end of the day you can never be guaranteed that 1) HC will be on 2) HC agrees to placing AO when you want it and 3) HC won't pull AO If they need it elsewhere.

I completely agree with you that historically defenders had prepared defenses, but has the AO mechanic ever actually done that? The consequence is that now there is no defense and everyone waits for the next AO to pop up.

I just don't see how you can square the circle with trying to give squads more play and flexibility with hybrid supply, but not do away with the AO mechanic, which has always been the greater limiter of squad operations and what ultimately killed the squads.

As I said before, there is real value in the AO as a signaling mechanism or for example with bridge attacks to prevent grieving. But no squad is going to take the effort to organize a squad up if they are not guaranteed they can attack this town, on this day, and at this time. Even something as simple as an hours delay in getting the AO up means a ruined squad night since it usually takes an hour just to set the whole attack up, sometimes even more time.

Without the guarantee of an ability to attack, hybrid supply on its own will do little to bring squads back into play.

I have a solution to that.

 

NAOs, for New AOs.  HC places an AO, it stays for two hours minimum.  Every town connected to the target town is eligible for capture, including the defenders' towns behind the AO target town, and attackers' frontline towns linking to the target.

 

HC places AO, then forgets about it and hopefully concentrates on battle management.

 

Big regional fights.  AO not yanked, paradrops that count, interdiction for 15km around.

 

I have a whole thread on that I can bring up in Barracks if you are interested.

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On 11/25/2018 at 2:16 PM, minky said:

You are looking at this completely backwards.  If you need 15 - 30 people every time you want to undertake a mission in game then why log in outside of your squad's squad night?  There is really no point in doing so.  Even then if you have a light attendance night of 7 or 8 people then your squad may as well call it quits and go play something else based on your premise.  The game needs to be scalable with doable missions from a fire team sized element all the way to a brigade sized element.  Otherwise what you are telling people is don't bother logging in if you can't muster the numbers.  If absolutely everything in game is geared toward large operations and there is no room for small unit tactics then you need to abolish the squad system completely and automatically plug people into some sort of prearranged orbat.  In other words, you'll have to force people into squads made up of people currently online.

Rather than trying to force squads, I would think the better route would be to find ways that those 3 and 4 man squads can flourish and make a difference.  When you get multiple 3 and 4 man squads actually logging into the game because it's worth it, sooner or later they will start merging into larger squads.  You need give the small squads a reason to log in first though.

This is an excellent point.

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13 hours ago, Merlin51 said:

Id probably be against a para ground spawn point.
What i would be for is allowing the para planes to "DEPLOY" old truck FRU style, except of course with the plane in motion.
Tie the deploy function to the drop door.
Get over the drop zone, you open to door, and MS appears on the mission, and everyone spawns.
Pilot closes drop door, add a small cool down time on deploying again so it isnt too gamey, pilot gets out of the hot area, hopefully comes around on a new approach and we go again.

Could even trade spawning among multiple pilots on same mission.

And give pilot points for unique spawns, just like the FMS owner gets

Paras should get ammo boxes though, in the graphic form of supply drop.  Pilot gets one to drop, and has to go back to AF to reload.

 

reconstruction-ww2-british-army-parachut

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While I am not sure about supporting a para MS, I like the idea of an ammo point. Good suggestion Kilemalll. 

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1 hour ago, kase250 said:

I think I have never coincided with you on the battlefield, I normally play in Eurotime and in an axis AO there is at least 2 FMS and many times there are more, I personally usually bring Opels frecuently. It is also true that many times there is only one left or only one can be put. And what are we going to do? It's supposed to be war. As I said yesterday, I have not played for a month but I doubt that things have changed in a month.

I am an active player, so I know how many FMS usually are in an AO (at least from axis POV) and why and AO could be dead. I never saw you ingame so I dont know your TZ, your side.....

my issue with this, and i've had this issue since 1 week after the FRU was introduced is: this is not ok, there is less activity in game from it... the game got boring without enemies

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on para MS

gliders.

they were historically awesome and every now and then when they're brought up it's agreed they'd be fun in game

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6 hours ago, major0noob said:

on para MS

gliders.

they were historically awesome and every now and then when they're brought up it's agreed they'd be fun in game

I'd make it a separate plane type for each side, has to be towed then glides and lands, wherever it is when it stop there it is, pilot switches it to UMS mode, severe spawn limits of say 2 rifles and one of the common MGs/semis per cycle, easily destroyable.

 

Looks like the likely candidates can be towed by 111s, Ju-52s, C47s and even Stukas, so no need for special towing planes.

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waco_CG-4

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/DFS_230

Edited by Kilemall
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16 hours ago, aismov said:

My own personal views: Against paratrooper mobile spawn. You will have single paras dropping into the abyss from a suicide Ju52 on a one way mission to create an army-out-of-a-box. Also against a recon infantry class creating mobile spawns.

As merlin said the issue with ninja infantry mobile spawns is they they cross rivers and other things which players realistically consider obstacles in the game world. Creating any sort of ATG or tank defense with infantry mobile spawning is extremely difficult and frustrating because you have a constant stream of enemies popping out of mole holes behind your front lines.

I am all for daring ops that surprise the defenders. But if you are going to have a high-reward impact on gameplay (decimating a prepared defense by surprise attacking from the rear), it should be an equally high risk operation that takes time and planning. I by all means welcome paras and infantry behind the lines - but do it the hard way and try to navigate that Ju52 cleverly to the drop point past defending EA. Or try to sneak in that truck by crossing an undefended rail bridge down river from the city. Don't send in one lone para or a swimmer across the river.

I get it  with the one Para Ninja , but here is my argument. 

You call for a Para drop and you spawn plane  1st time around ( when we had players  or Steam launch) a plane would fill in a few minutes or even less then a min and you were on your way with 10 to 20+ troopers.

Today's reality is you call for a drop and 5 min later you still sit on the AF , you might leave with 5 guys after 10 min .

Now you fly hope you don't get spotted , you get shot down. Figure try again out of those 5 now only 3 show up , try again , you make it those 3 land but are dead within seconds , try again you figure you sit at AF and after 5 min NONE show . And don't tell me that's not the truth because I have seen it time and time again.

I used to be in a Para Squad, I like playing Para , and I think a limited supplied Para spawn would get players excited again about playing that unit cause you can actually play them with maybe a better success rate then just dropping over a Soft Cap or a well defended Town.

Sure I would love Gliders in game and them be the ones to set a FMS ( I came up with that Idea way back when paras were still big in game ) 

But gliders are a new model while a MS is a lot simpler then hooking up a Glider to a Plane .  It's just one step to the Glider ,but the game has to start somewhere.

 

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OK here it is I just Brainstormed.

The big fear is the Ninja para.

Here is the solution:

ML makes mission, now at least 10 fellow paras need to spawn in on his mission  to open up an eligibility to set up a FMS . Once landed ML sets FMS now all the Troopers that spawned on that ML mission get 1 free respawn at that FMS . After that once depending on the force that decided to jump is spend one has to do it over again.

That would for one guarantee not an endless Para on the ground spawn ( even that I have said in each post limited spawn supply)

2ND it would guarantee a huge group of Paratroopers spawning again and might bring back seeing 20+ paras over an AO .

3RD depending on the ML he might jump early , late or over AO not said that a FMS will even happen but the chance would be there and each player would have 1 respawn if the ML would set a FMS.

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7 hours ago, Kilemall said:

Paras should get ammo boxes though, in the graphic form of supply drop.  Pilot gets one to drop, and has to go back to AF to reload.

That would be kind of neat, and like in real life, they would be lost a lot, so you get several pilots trying to get a successful supply drop in.

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Kilemall: I love the idea of the ammo drop. Definitely should have it. As for the AOs, you raise a good point about low-pop situations where you could be easily 30% overpop. Do you think that can be modified by capture timers? I think that is a very difficult problem to solve. But I also think that squads won't bother showing up if AOs still exist. The regional AO thing is an interesting concept. But what if your squads area of operations with the HC orbat is not in the region where the AO is? What if you have a squad night and there no no regional AOs left to place?

Dre: I like your idea; as long as it is limited to respawning of the players who actually boarded the plane. I agree it could bring a new dynamic to the para game. Off the top of my head I can't think of any major unintended consequences of this system as long as the number needed to activate 1-time respawn FMS is a reasonably high number (I agree that 10 is a good number).

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1 hour ago, aismov said:

Kilemall: I love the idea of the ammo drop. Definitely should have it. As for the AOs, you raise a good point about low-pop situations where you could be easily 30% overpop. Do you think that can be modified by capture timers? I think that is a very difficult problem to solve. But I also think that squads won't bother showing up if AOs still exist. The regional AO thing is an interesting concept. But what if your squads area of operations with the HC orbat is not in the region where the AO is? What if you have a squad night and there no no regional AOs left to place?

 

Boy you have been gone a long time.

 

No such thing as 'area of operations' except for navy guys starving for AOs.  That whole thing, gone with AOs, and so a long time.

 

Since each side would deploy an NAO, there would be two areas in play at once, with actually almost as many towns in play as the whole front, but with more depth rather then length.

 

If they can't find something appealing in something like an average of 12 towns in play, with no AO yanked out from under them for hours, not sure what else you can expect.

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2 hours ago, aismov said:

Kilemall: I love the idea of the ammo drop. Definitely should have it. As for the AOs, you raise a good point about low-pop situations where you could be easily 30% overpop. Do you think that can be modified by capture timers? I think that is a very difficult problem to solve. But I also think that squads won't bother showing up if AOs still exist. The regional AO thing is an interesting concept. But what if your squads area of operations with the HC orbat is not in the region where the AO is? What if you have a squad night and there no no regional AOs left to place?

Dre: I like your idea; as long as it is limited to respawning of the players who actually boarded the plane. I agree it could bring a new dynamic to the para game. Off the top of my head I can't think of any major unintended consequences of this system as long as the number needed to activate 1-time respawn FMS is a reasonably high number (I agree that 10 is a good number).

Yup that's the idea,  the guys that are on that mission and the ML actually sets a MS get 1 respawn at the MS . And then they have to try again.

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12 hours ago, Kilemall said:

I have a solution to that.

 

NAOs, for New AOs.  HC places an AO, it stays for two hours minimum.  Every town connected to the target town is eligible for capture, including the defenders' towns behind the AO target town, and attackers' frontline towns linking to the target.

 

 

+10 / New AOs would simulate both the old 'area of operations' and the broader 'area capture' concepts both much discussed. 

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14 hours ago, kase250 said:

Mate, I have already answered this in my post, I do a copy paste:

I think I have never coincided with you on the battlefield, I normally play in Eurotime and in an axis AO there is at least 2 FMS and many times there are more, I personally usually bring Opels frecuently. It is also true that many times there is only one left or only one can be put. And what are we going to do? It's supposed to be war. As I said yesterday, I have not played for a month but I doubt that things have changed in a month.

I am an active player, so I know how many FMS usually are in an AO (at least from axis POV) and why and AO could be dead. I never saw you ingame so I dont know your TZ, your side.....

 

I can think of two things:

-The defenders did their job well

-Attackers are not very skilled and blame the game for their lack of skill, then they demand changes to satisfy their lack of skill, if the developers do not do it their decision is to abandon the ship. 

Of course, as a costumer, it is legitimate but in my opinion not very successful

there's a misunderstanding on which side I play on: the defenders.

gave up on making FMS's after a few months of failure. I'll admit I'm not good enough, but neither were the dozens that were trying and continued even with teamwork and leadership

 

as a defender, the battles are dead and i provided my reasoning as to why. it's soo easy to stop spawns, we don't even need to use chat and mark.

it's straight up lone wolfing/rambo BS, beating organized squads.

 

 

if you're gonna be snippy to people cause they're not able to set up a spawn don't direct it to attackers which make up the entire population, direct it to me.

if you honestly think it's ok for people to unsub: make multiple hero accounts to account for the loss in revenue.

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i like the idea of  ML/HC create rifleman / smg only FRU, attacker can use them to secure ZOC while defender can place dfru in farm bunker like the old day

Also the current FMS placement time shall be reduce, it is hard to replace FMS during intense AO since trucks can be easily spotted and kill

 

Para plane, TT and train spawn point may worth a try imo

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Do you mean railway stations? In real life trains carried most of the soldiers to war, and were highly prized strategic targets. Perhaps we should look at making them more of a valid capture target ( with a fms popping up inside on capture and/or a dfms on AO?).

Of course with out current town setups they would be prone to being camped but it could shake the cobwebs out of the game.

Some excellent ideas in this thread!!

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9 hours ago, towman said:

i like the idea of  ML/HC create rifleman / smg only FRU, attacker can use them to secure ZOC while defender can place dfru in farm bunker like the old day

Also the current FMS placement time shall be reduce, it is hard to replace FMS during intense AO since trucks can be easily spotted and kill

 

Para plane, TT and train spawn point may worth a try imo

Towman the issue with a  ML set FRU is that natural obstacles like Rivers become once again a none factor in game.  Why go out to destroy a Bridge when a lone ML can set a FRU and you have an instant Army out of a box ?

This is not Chris Angel Mindfreak magic hour, it needs to simulate something in a game that touts itself a Simulation.

A Truck set FMS = a Bunker or small camp where a force of soldiers are present.

A Truck itself as a FMS would = to a load full of Soldiers disembarking from said Truck.

A pontoon on the rivers edge as a spawn  = a group of soldiers just landed on the other side of the river.

A Para MS = a larger force successfully completed a jump to assault a Town.

All these above have to overcome something to get into position to set up or need to fix or control a bridge.

 

A ML building  a Box = Magic hour like David Copperfield pulling a rabbit out of a hat.

A INF ML is a Ninja that just brought a whole platoon with him in his backpack and let them loose.

I don't care which way you slice it ,in my opinion that is taking a step backwards once again , it doesn't matter if it's Rifle and SMG only.

Only reasonable way to do it is either give the Truck a Raft PPO it can spawn and send it across river to set FMS or let the Engineer build a Raft PPO that he then enters and once across river he could set a FMS but it would need to be within 100 to maybe 200 meters from shore ( in the form of a Tent) = a larger force has landed. 

But a ML just swimming across and then set a FMS anywhere around town is in my eyes a deal breaker.

 

Edited by dre21
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3 hours ago, dropbear said:

Do you mean railway stations? In real life trains carried most of the soldiers to war, and were highly prized strategic targets. Perhaps we should look at making them more of a valid capture target ( with a fms popping up inside on capture and/or a dfms on AO?).

Of course with out current town setups they would be prone to being camped but it could shake the cobwebs out of the game.

Some excellent ideas in this thread!!

Actually, if I were redoing the RDP I would put in the railyards as a major bombing target on the same level as factories.

 

Atlantic docks for Allied supply, particularly American.

 

 

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12 hours ago, sorella said:

+10 / New AOs would simulate both the old 'area of operations' and the broader 'area capture' concepts both much discussed. 

Well, it's a bit more then that.  Too often we end up driving in a rut between FB and target, and it's 25% countryside fight cutting getting into camp/surprise infiltration position of either town or FB, 75% urban fights if the attack gets an established position.

 

With Doc's experiment with the Bloody Battles version, I found myself driving in from odd towns to surprise other people driving around out there, and it was a big 20km around battle area with a lot more countryside in play.

 

The hybrid supply makes this MORE possible as new supply to finish off the towns one direction or another pops up so AT hunters like me get a lot more chance to get in position, whereas in the current iteration you don't get a payoff most of the time as either the FMS get stuffed or the attack is over before one can get to where the action is.

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past 2 pages is mostly para spawn, always happens in these threads but you guys never make a point to address it directly

forum conversation usually meaning in page 4 guys, if you're passionate about it make a thread

 

not trying to be a [censored], you guys will get better talk if it's brought up as a topic instead of a side note

same with AO ideas, the talk is good but it's lost in the other topics making it a jumbled mess

 

as far as I'm concerned, the objective in the title has been met and people talked about the FMS. so i don't care about derailment. you guys're getting nowhere without making a clear talking point though.

these forums could use some new topics

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1 hour ago, major0noob said:

past 2 pages is mostly para spawn, always happens in these threads but you guys never make a point to address it directly

forum conversation usually meaning in page 4 guys, if you're passionate about it make a thread

 

not trying to be a [censored], you guys will get better talk if it's brought up as a topic instead of a side note

same with AO ideas, the talk is good but it's lost in the other topics making it a jumbled mess

 

as far as I'm concerned, the objective in the title has been met and people talked about the FMS. so i don't care about derailment. you guys're getting nowhere without making a clear talking point though.

these forums could use some new topics

Been after that in the idea section over and over and over, why do I bring it up here cause it fits. 

We have a whole other aspect of the game that gets neglected  (Para play) just as Navy, but at the Para level CRS could actually do something now without having to model new stuff.

Sorry but FMS talk goes hand in hand with everything I said , Bridges, Rivers Paras,  Ground troops and so on and on.

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6 hours ago, dre21 said:

Towman the issue with a  ML set FRU is that natural obstacles like Rivers become once again a none factor in game.  Why go out to destroy a Bridge when a lone ML can set a FRU and you have an instant Army out of a box ?

This is not Chris Angel Mindfreak magic hour, it needs to simulate something in a game that touts itself a Simulation.

A Truck set FMS = a Bunker or small camp where a force of soldiers are present.

A Truck itself as a FMS would = to a load full of Soldiers disembarking from said Truck.

A pontoon on the rivers edge as a spawn  = a group of soldiers just landed on the other side of the river.

A Para MS = a larger force successfully completed a jump to assault a Town.

All these above have to overcome something to get into position to set up or need to fix or control a bridge.

A ML building  a Box = Magic hour like David Copperfield pulling a rabbit out of a hat.

A INF ML is a Ninja that just brought a whole platoon with him in his backpack and let them loose.

I don't care which way you slice it ,in my opinion that is taking a step backwards once again , it doesn't matter if it's Rifle and SMG only.

Only reasonable way to do it is either give the Truck a Raft PPO it can spawn and send it across river to set FMS or let the Engineer build a Raft PPO that he then enters and once across river he could set a FMS but it would need to be within 100 to maybe 200 meters from shore ( in the form of a Tent) = a larger force has landed. 

But a ML just swimming across and then set a FMS anywhere around town is in my eyes a deal breaker.

Completely agree with you 100%.

For this game to function you need to have reasonably interdictable attacks. A loud, undefended truck driving in the countryside fits that bill. A slow transport plan with paratroopers fits that bill. A Fairmile stopping by shore and making a raft PPO fits that bill.

A lone infantry crawling through the bushes definitely does not fit that bill. We need to have intuitive, reasonable, and at least semi-realistic front lines. Infantry mission leader UMS, Para UMS, etc do not allow any of that since there is no reasonable way the defender can 1) predict where the attack will come from (in real life you have a front lines and you can reasonably assume the attack will come from the enemy lines ahead of you, and not having any army suddenly appear in your rear) and 2) set up a realistic counter-defense against those attacks.

You can set a realistic counter defense against lone trucks or Ju52s. There is no way you can realistically defend against lone infantry. And this causes defense to be not only net to impossible, it ruins the ATG and tank game because you have small armies popping out of everywhere causing havoc to any prepared defenses. As I said before I welcome the daring behind the lines raid, or the hail mary para drop. But players need to earn it the hard way. It is already bad enough you can set up an FMS on the reverse side of town opposite the front line in what would normally be deep enemy territory. We shouldn't be looking for ways to make that situation worse.

In my opinion these UMS-type spawn ideas are an example of short expediency (get into the battle faster) that in the long term erode the core of this game which is combined arms battles with each side trying to outwit the other tactically on the battlefield, and not to see who can set up the most exotically placed single-infantry mobile spawns.

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