dragoz

Squad regeneration

32 posts in this topic

On 12/3/2018 at 9:24 PM, aismov said:

I think that a very simply paradigm could be created that any players could instantly understand. Click on city > Choose FMS from map > Get on waiting truck with other players. Like Hatch said, I can't begin to say how important the truck ride was for new players to understand the game. They would get vital information on what the veteran players were going to do, what to look out for, and even they were really new, they just stuck to one of the vets and followed them around. This is how most squads actually recruited members (back in the day where you had to go to a separate website and request access to joint a squad!).

Would you have some situations where there is no truck? Yeah. But honestly those situations "back in the day" were pretty minimal. Plus you have always the FB spawn to fall back on if there is no truck at your particular FMS. Ironically, the time it takes a truck to cover the 1.5 km is much shorted than it now takes infantry to cover the same terrain. And with a proper ZOC covered and flanked by tanks you create a safe attack corridor through which you bring in your truck-mounted (or tank mounted) infantry.

Seriously, when was the last time you saw infantry riding on top of tanks? We used to have tanks full of infantry. Sometimes 4, 5, even 6 on a single tank.

Hatch hit is on the head with how corrosive mobile spawning has been for organized teamplay and social cohesion. It shouldn't be completely eliminated because I think it creates some interesting opportunities like I illustrated above. Just some food for thought S!

@Aismov
The only thing I'm not a big fan of in your diagram/proposal is the trucks setting FMS's, and then spawning from those same FMS's? So we end up back where a bunch of indies are running around setting FMS's that just like now show up on the UI/map interface that we have no real clue about who set them and why? Are they in a good position? Are they camped, etc?

(As a side note: we are not opposed to the idea of a forward PPO that can spawn trucks, AT/AA, and other vehicles. As a matter of fact, we have discussed and are open to the idea of developing limited player placed FB PPO's. Swap the "Attacking FMS's" in your diagram with player placed Fire Base objects that had the same spawn capabilities of the current terrain locked FB's (and sharing the same supply pool), but a little more restricted to enemy CP proximity to keep them from being too close to, or behind the enemies CP, and instead of coming from a FB, they would have to be initiated from the AB of a controlled CP as well as have some sort of player/group requirement in place to keep em from being too prolific.)  

And I think we would be regressing a bit in the context of keeping people together once enroute to where the battle is. As an example, once I drove a truck to set your FMS, then I despawned and spawned another truck from the FMS I just set, who knows about the FMS I just set? What tells other players that they should spawn at MY FMS, and what is the incentive for doing so? Assuming I do get some folks to spawn at my FMS, and hop on my truck, I don't see what addresses the issue of separation that always happens when some people get shot off the truck enroute or get killed right after disembarking once at the battle... I have part of the group still fighting where we disembarked from the truck, and others stuck at least 1.5k away with no other option but to hoof it back to where the rest of us are...

That's why in my proposal above, I want to keep the FMS at the end of the truck ride into battle instead of at the beginning. If I limit the use of the FMS that each truck/group sets (one per truck, per trip), to the passengers of that truck, I can reduce the time it takes to plant the FMS because it isn't an insta-spawn army from a box set by a single dude anymore, but more like an in-close rallying point only spawnable by everyone that was on that truck (truck/group capacities to be determined). If I can create a semi-permanent list of all the players simultaneously riding on that truck once it starts moving, it allows me to assign those players on that list to the FMS that truck will "plant" and besides the team building aspect of just spending a little time in the back of a truck, introduces some really nice and seamless team/group opportunities.

This "game mechanic" allows several nice features for the "adhoc" group of guys on that truck, such as allowing the group listing or roster to expand each time I stop the truck to pick up more guys and start moving again, allowing an easy and natural way to grow the "group" without extra UI/game interface interaction. It promotes communication amongst everyone in that group by means of shared chat/voip channel they automatically receive when they jump on the truck joining that group. It allows cohesion of the group on each truck by automatically assigning every group member riding on the truck to the FMS the truck sets so if I get killed enroute (shot or fall off truck, lose connect, etc), I can instantly spawn back with my group as the character I was (assuming supply allows) as soon as the FMS is set/available by an autospawn routine, or by simply clicking the "go/enter world" button rather than having to "find my way back", or going through the UI trying to find that particular FMS out of all the others that might be available/presented. It could allow the entire "group" to all re-spawn at the same time from the same facility should the FMS go down. Those already KIA, automatically as soon as anyone in the group spawned another truck, those still alive and fighting still, via pop-up box alerting them that their group FMS was down allowing them to exit and spawn with the group, or to spawn automatically upon his "death" at the site of the new FMS (assuming his other group/team members have or are in process of placing a new one) when it becomes available.

Several specific and powerful points behind it all... FMS's are associated with groups, not individuals spawning out of them adhoc or without knowledge of whats going on there. Groups being formed and expanded naturally and organically simply by hopping on a truck. No one gets geographically isolated from their group by death or accident once "grouped by the truck" and FMS is set and active. Inclusive of all players regardless of squad/mission affiliation and/or experience level. Requires minimal UI exposure to continue spawning with the group repeatedly or on subsequent trips. etc... I could go on and on...


 

3 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Kilemall said:

Bleh.

 

Serious problems inbound.

Like?  It's not like you to throw a dart without posting the reason.

 

Can't for the life of me understand why anyone would be against being able to attack whether or not HC is online.  So long as the attackers don't get anything to spawn except what they brought with them, there will be no worries of instaspawning armies, and there will be increased freedom of action for squads without cutting into what the HCs are up to.  It expands the usefullness of airborne troops.  It enhances team play.  It increases the variability of how the map moves in a given campaign.  All good things, as I see it.

 

S!

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 hours ago, augetout said:

Like?  It's not like you to throw a dart without posting the reason.

 

Can't for the life of me understand why anyone would be against being able to attack whether or not HC is online.  So long as the attackers don't get anything to spawn except what they brought with them, there will be no worries of instaspawning armies, and there will be increased freedom of action for squads without cutting into what the HCs are up to.  It expands the usefullness of airborne troops.  It enhances team play.  It increases the variability of how the map moves in a given campaign.  All good things, as I see it.

 

S!

I see a LOT of problems, don't have time to express them all.  I'll get back to this.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Problems with the Hatch truck rider qualify FMS paradigm too, biggest one is defenders have infinitely greater spawning potential then attackers that 'committed' to a truck ride, and also pop neutrality impacts as an underpop side doesn't have time to ride around in trucks while towns fall (same reason why driving a truck to enable brigade moves was a no go).

There are other organizing principles then just the truck ride, that's why I'm on about the task force, as it gives squads tools AND supports adhoc groups like a new version of channel 94 or the previous Allied superbrigades or Axis divisions.  Having a comms channel and a group for a player to 'come home to' and sign on for instant organization is a powerful thing, and still decouples that from the one mission/one spawn crippling spawnmess we have now.

 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, HATCH said:

@Aismov
The only thing I'm not a big fan of in your diagram/proposal is the trucks setting FMS's, and then spawning from those same FMS's? So we end up back where a bunch of indies are running around setting FMS's that just like now show up on the UI/map interface that we have no real clue about who set them and why? Are they in a good position? Are they camped, etc?

...

Several specific and powerful points behind it all... FMS's are associated with groups, not individuals spawning out of them adhoc or without knowledge of whats going on there. Groups being formed and expanded naturally and organically simply by hopping on a truck. No one gets geographically isolated from their group by death or accident once "grouped by the truck" and FMS is set and active. Inclusive of all players regardless of squad/mission affiliation and/or experience level. Requires minimal UI exposure to continue spawning with the group repeatedly or on subsequent trips. etc... I could go on and on...

To clarify the FMS would have to be set by one truck which itself spawns from the FB. Once the FMS is set infantry can spawn from it, but no further trucks/vehicles are allowed to spawn. Infantry that spawn from these FMS can either ride into battle on a tank or truck through a safe attack corridor their side has created, or try to make a longer run in. So essentially the trucks/APCs would be going between the FMS and the target town as a type of shuttle, with trucks that get shot out having to come from the FB. I think the strengths of this system are that it utilizes what is already in place with the exception that the distance it tweaked (minimum distance increased to 1.5 km), and there is essentially a grid type system where FMS can't be placed as this would in real life be deep behind enemy lines. As far as the UI, I envisioned that rather than choosing a mission, on the main screen you would see a list of cities with activity. You would like on the city of interest, and the next screen would open a map that shows spawning options such as FB, or FMS, and you would just double click on where you want to spawn.

That said, I like your system a lot as well, and probably actually even more than my own. I think it does a great job of keeping player together as a whole and like you said the one-shot FMS options makes it easier for the poor guy who happened to get shot when he was on the truck and missed the action. In your system do you invision a similar type of "no mans land" grid where you can't drop an FMS or would you keep the map completely open for behind-the-lines FMS placement? Another strength of your system is that it is completely obvious what as a new player what to do. See that truck with all the other players? Hop on it and you will get briefed on the plan. Get killed? No problem, we have one chance to regroup and try it again.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/6/2018 at 0:24 PM, Kilemall said:

Problems with the Hatch truck rider qualify FMS paradigm too, biggest one is defenders have infinitely greater spawning potential then attackers that 'committed' to a truck ride, and also pop neutrality impacts as an underpop side doesn't have time to ride around in trucks while towns fall (same reason why driving a truck to enable brigade moves was a no go).

That's a bit of an exaggeration in my opinion. I fail to see how it would be any different as far as troop capacity goes when compared to current FMS's except for the fact that at least for the initial assault (truck run that plants the FMS) you actually have a consolidated group of soldiers on the attack rather than a bunch of "rambo" stragglers that you normally get out of the current FMS's simply because everyone is there at the same time. Everyone on the Truck can assault as a single entity either after the truck driver plants the FMS and respawns to join the rest of the guys, or even while he is planting it. After it's been planted and the troops that came on the truck with it start getting killed, it operates no differently than the current ones do until it gets destroyed. How is that "less spawning potential" than what you already have? Want 3 FMS's? Load up three different trucks...

As far as underpop goes, 1) IMHO, that should be handled via game mechanics and strategy. 2) Aside from whatever we can do to "support underpop/hinder overpop" via timers, delays, and what-not, if too many of you are trying to run off and start new capture offensives while the enemy is in the middle of taking your CPs, maybe your towns should be falling since it's awful hard to assault enemy CP's while defending your own.
 

On 12/6/2018 at 0:24 PM, Kilemall said:

There are other organizing principles then just the truck ride, that's why I'm on about the task force, as it gives squads tools AND supports adhoc groups like a new version of channel 94 or the previous Allied superbrigades or Axis divisions.  Having a comms channel and a group for a player to 'come home to' and sign on for instant organization is a powerful thing, and still decouples that from the one mission/one spawn crippling spawnmess we have now.

From my personal experience, I've never seen a more powerful in-game ice breaker/squad catalyst platform, getting people together for both existing initial squad founding OR natural and organic squad growth (as well as green tag welcoming vehicle)  than the trucks and convoys that used to be how you had to play. And that was without any of the FMS sharing I'm talking about now where you had no choice but to go all the way back to the FB if you were killed (I agree, worst part of old truck riding paradigm).... Since that catalyst/platform has been gone and AO control has been delegated to the few even with almost unlimited FMS availability, the results speak for themselves.

I have no idea what "task force" you are talking about, but if it doesn't include a game mechanic that forces people together for a short period of time like a truck ride does, you're going to have a tough time convincing me. Refer to the articles Asimov posted earlier in this thread. And in our game, besides the obvious camaraderie of your colorful peers, you're enjoying the scenic countryside and the virtual world around you while team-building instead of waiting at a some kind of glorified chatroom or spawn countdown screen waiting for the group to spawn...

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Not to mention the white knuckle ride in the truck when there are strafing EA overhead or you see ATG rounds flying over the truck. And mind you, I am trying to look at the situation objectively and avoid as much "back in the day" nostalgia as possible. The truck-only paradigm had its faults like Hatch said, namely having to go all the way back to the FB and try again, which if you just got unlucky was indeed a downer. And players did feel that at times the truck ride was too long, particularly if they just got taken out 500m outside of town on the previous run.

But I also think that it was one of the few times there was time to have some social interactions among other players. It is one thing to be a lone infantry and be shot at. Its a completely different experience when it happens to you in a truck full of other guys. People who didn't know each other quickly became the best of friends. Just like there are no athesists in a foxhole, I'll add the WWIIOL corollary to that saying and state there were no lonewolves/bluetags in trucks under fire. We were all in the same kettle. We all shared the "whew that was a close one!" on the chat, or the agony of being killed. Were there times when a driver rolled over a berm and did an idiotic banzai run into town and wiped out the whole truck and stirred up bad blood? Sure, but it really didn't happen all that often. Overall it was a good system and better than what we have today.

I'll give you a good personal example of the social benefits of the game from the current campaign. Of the bombing I did some of the most fun I did was randomly finding a 1st LB member and we flew a few He111 bombing missions together in formation. Chatted a little bit during the flight, congratulated each other on the runs. Its little things like that which make the game feel alive. At least to me, but I suppose many others feel the same way.

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.