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XOOM

Proposed LMG Fix

370 posts in this topic

1 hour ago, minky said:

I don't disagree except for the fact that ATGs are a one trick pony.  Their sole purpose is to engage tanks.

that's why i said they're complex, we can't talk about ATG's exclusively. for example: the 25mm is utterly incapable whereas the s35 is the preferred anti tank weapon

the same can't be said for the 2c, r35, panny, and 232 vs their tier ATG's. they need to be analyzed individually in order to make a judgment

2c vs 2lbr, then 25mm, then m1

232 vs 2lbr, then 25mm, then m1

4B vs 2lbr, then 25mm, then m1

etc etc...

 

we did this last year for tanks, figured it was balanced overall, but the 10 panny counterparts pushed the axis anti-inf capabilities too far.

AFAIK we haven't had the same conversation about ATG's, beyond the "pak38 vs sherm" & "6lbr vs 4G" imbalance.

 

again, this shouldn't be generalized. the armor game (which the ATG is a part of) is more intricate than k/d parity

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14 minutes ago, major0noob said:

that's why i said they're complex, we can't talk about ATG's exclusively. for example: the 25mm is utterly incapable whereas the s35 is the preferred anti tank weapon

the same can't be said for the 2c, r35, panny, and 232 vs their tier ATG's. they need to be analyzed individually in order to make a judgment

2c vs 2lbr, then 25mm, then m1

232 vs 2lbr, then 25mm, then m1

4B vs 2lbr, then 25mm, then m1

etc etc...

 

we did this last year for tanks, figured it was balanced overall, but the 10 panny counterparts pushed the axis anti-inf capabilities too far.

AFAIK we haven't had the same conversation about ATG's, beyond the "pak38 vs sherm" & "6lbr vs 4G" imbalance.

 

again, this shouldn't be generalized. the armor game (which the ATG is a part of) is more intricate than k/d parity

If that were the case then one couldn't make sweeping generalizations about the LMGs either given the different characteristics of all the infantry weapons in game.  Yet in this thread we have done so.  If we are going to make sweeping generalizations, lets make sweeping generalizations.

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Sweeping generalizations made by people other than me are always wrong.

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Where's the fuel. Looks like a bloke running with a lmg. Not firing while running nor negotiating a confined building. 

Weapon doesn't even look loaded.

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19 minutes ago, aismov said:

Just to add some fuel to the fire ;)

DFS-230.jpg

weakfuel :) He's not Rambo'ing, he's running to a place he can go prone and fire in support of his team....like real 

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4 hours ago, minky said:

If that were the case then one couldn't make sweeping generalizations about the LMGs either given the different characteristics of all the infantry weapons in game.  Yet in this thread we have done so.  If we are going to make sweeping generalizations, lets make sweeping generalizations.

there was lots of debate in this thread... the k/d parity is only one the topics talked about

the inf game is simpler to balance, they can all kill each other in 1-2 hits and move at the same speed. the same thing can't be said about the armour/ATG game

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I think this is not a viable solution instead you should actually spend some dev time, in implementing a RO/H&G style:

- RO - To shoot you have to press the deploy while standing or running, this forces you to walk slowly

- Heroes and Generals - By pressing to aim down iron sights, it takes more time for you to get on iron sights because of the gun weight and you become imobile and the more you look down ironsights the heavier the sights picture and in the end the game forces you to stop looking down on irong sights so.

 

Functionality

- while running or walking, if you press deploy, you are set in walking mode while holding the bipod, allows you to shoot(Not Iron sights)

-  while running or walking, if you press iron sights, the animation to look down is slower,

// test when finished you become immobile or you are set on walk

- Looking down tires you a lot and eventually you stop aiming down.

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On 12/8/2018 at 1:58 AM, XOOM said:

Hey all,

Tonight I dove into the code and our data directory, and I'd like to discuss the following as a compromise for the light machine gun class, which covers the: MG34, Bren Gun and the French FM24/29.

Proposed Changes:

  1. Disable firing while moving under ANY conditions
  2. Increase non-aimed (hip fire) dispersion
  3. Increase hip fire muzzle climb
  4. Make reloading a stationary task (only)
  5. Firing LMG will reduce stamina some (does recover)

 

---

1) For me I think this will make things very restricted and it's not counter intuitive when you can watch videos on youtube of people doing it and I think also real ww2 footage can be found

2) 3)Increasing more I think will look bad, since 3rd person muzzle flash and bullet direction is not tied to were you are shooting or the barrel is aimed at.

4) I somewhat agree but I think you should be able to reload while walking but much more slowly.

5) I agree but I would prefer this to be tied to aiming down iron sights while standing/crouching

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FWIW, I always maintained that the issue isn't moving when firing the LMG (specifically the MG34); it's firing while jogging.

There are three inf movement speeds (when on foot); walking (press t), jogging (default), sprint.

Firing the MG34 while jogging is pure fantasy garbage, plain and simple. There is NO video ANYWHERE of this happening (unless it's some idiot doing a stunt) because it did NOT happen.

My proposal (the same proposal I first posted on these forums ~10 years ago) is to make it so that when someone fires an LMG, they automatically switch to the walk speed. Very simple. In lieu of that, I would be fine with no movement during fire (because even though this isn't 100% perfectly realistic, it's still vastly more realistic than the way it is now...and it would be a good approximation of the sort of real hip-fire that actually happened in WWII anyway).

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9 minutes ago, xanthus said:

FWIW, I always maintained that the issue isn't moving when firing the LMG (specifically the MG34); it's firing while jogging.

There are three inf movement speeds (when on foot); walking (press t), jogging (default), sprint.

Firing the MG34 while jogging is pure fantasy garbage, plain and simple. There is NO video ANYWHERE of this happening (unless it's some idiot doing a stunt) because it did NOT happen.

My proposal (the same proposal I first posted on these forums ~10 years ago) is to make it so that when someone fires an LMG, they automatically switch to the walk speed. Very simple. In lieu of that, I would be fine with no movement during fire (because even though this isn't 100% perfectly realistic, it's still vastly more realistic than the way it is now...and it would be a good approximation of the sort of real hip-fire that actually happened in WWII anyway).

Seems very reasonable.

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The greatest functionality pushback is with regard to running into a room, then spinning while firing to kill all occupants.

The unrealism of that comes from the rotational inertia of the long, heavy weapon, and the lack of physical control when rapidly spinning while firing such a high-recoil weapon. The videos we all have looked at, show that successful upright long-burst firing of such guns requires bracing oneself. That's not consistent with spinning.

The proposal...auto-shift to walk speed when firing while upright...would do nothing about spin-while-firing.

The Xoom-proposed option #1 ("disable firing while moving under ANY conditions") similarly would do nothing about spin-while-firing, unless rotation is to be re-defined to be "movement". AFAIK, rotation is not currently considered "movement", i.e. a prone soldier cannot "move" but can rotate.

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8 minutes ago, jwilly said:

The greatest functionality pushback is with regard to running into a room, then spinning while firing to kill all occupants.

The unrealism of that comes from the rotational inertia of the long, heavy weapon, and the lack of physical control when rapidly spinning while firing such a high-recoil weapon. The videos we all have looked at, show that successful upright long-burst firing of such guns requires bracing oneself. That's not consistent with spinning.

The proposal...auto-shift to walk speed when firing while upright...would do nothing about spin-while-firing.

The Xoom-proposed option #1 ("disable firing while moving under ANY conditions") similarly would do nothing about spin-while-firing, unless rotation is to be re-defined to be "movement". AFAIK, rotation is not currently considered "movement", i.e. a prone soldier cannot "move" but can rotate.

Truthfully weapon weight should be considered with every weapon in game.  LMG's are extremely heavy and movement should be slowed down to compensate for the extra weight.  Some weapons that you wouldn't think are heavy actually are as well.  Take the Thompson for example, if you have ever held one you know it's kind of a brick.  The thing weighs like 12 pounds.  More than a modern M16 battle rifle.  In the case of the Thompson it worked out in a good way though.  The recoil would be far less manageable otherwise.  The point is though that the spin factor should be accounted for with different weights of all the weapons.  WWII rifles were much heavier than their modern counterparts.  

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8 hours ago, xanthus said:

FWIW, I always maintained that the issue isn't moving when firing the LMG (specifically the MG34); it's firing while jogging.

There are three inf movement speeds (when on foot); walking (press t), jogging (default), sprint.

Firing the MG34 while jogging is pure fantasy garbage, plain and simple. There is NO video ANYWHERE of this happening (unless it's some idiot doing a stunt) because it did NOT happen.

My proposal (the same proposal I first posted on these forums ~10 years ago) is to make it so that when someone fires an LMG, they automatically switch to the walk speed. Very simple. In lieu of that, I would be fine with no movement during fire (because even though this isn't 100% perfectly realistic, it's still vastly more realistic than the way it is now...and it would be a good approximation of the sort of real hip-fire that actually happened in WWII anyway).

+1, too many times this devolves to removing hip fire completely

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the same thing can be achieved by adding ADS to all LMG's, and forcing them to ADS-fire instead of hip-fire.

make the bring to bear time long, and the ADS turn speed slow. everything's solved, while adding a cool new functionality

 

no more spinning, no shotgun/grenade effect, no kill trades, and they'll be more fun to use. they'll also look better, currently they shoot at the ground in third person while their shots go forward.

Edited by major0noob

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37 minutes ago, major0noob said:

the same thing can be achieved by adding ADS to all LMG's, and forcing them to ADS-fire instead of hip-fire.

make the bring to bear time long, and the ADS turn speed slow. everything's solved, while adding a cool new functionality

no more spinning, no shotgun/grenade effect, no kill trades, and they'll be more fun to use. they'll also look better, currently they shoot at the ground in third person while their shots go forward.

I guess I'm just slow today...ADS?

Attention Deficit Syndrome? Automatic Death System?

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27 minutes ago, kchip said:

havent logged in over a week this camp. Seriously rethinking reup

 

Why is that? 

This topic is just going over a brainstorming session and we have already stated that any changes would not happen till at least q1 if any.

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6 minutes ago, jwilly said:

I guess I'm just slow today...ADS?

Attention Deficit Syndrome? Automatic Death System?

Aim Down Sight.

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14 hours ago, xanthus said:

FWIW, I always maintained that the issue isn't moving when firing the LMG (specifically the MG34); it's firing while jogging.

There are three inf movement speeds (when on foot); walking (press t), jogging (default), sprint.

Firing the MG34 while jogging is pure fantasy garbage, plain and simple. There is NO video ANYWHERE of this happening (unless it's some idiot doing a stunt) because it did NOT happen.

My proposal (the same proposal I first posted on these forums ~10 years ago) is to make it so that when someone fires an LMG, they automatically switch to the walk speed. Very simple. In lieu of that, I would be fine with no movement during fire (because even though this isn't 100% perfectly realistic, it's still vastly more realistic than the way it is now...and it would be a good approximation of the sort of real hip-fire that actually happened in WWII anyway).

THIS!   

 

@jwilly Maybe there is a way to code in a dispersion debuff while the player is rotating and firing from the hip??

Edited by jokur

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There are real and legitimate reasons that LMGs are not the preferred weapon for room clearing. Maybe we should ask ourselves what those reasons are and model those. 

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1 hour ago, minky said:

There are real and legitimate reasons that LMGs are not the preferred weapon for room clearing. Maybe we should ask ourselves what those reasons are and model those. 

Barel Overheat effect and mechanical failures?

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