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XOOM

Proposed LMG Fix

370 posts in this topic

18 minutes ago, XOOM said:

Side note / observation: These unsubscribe threats are getting pretty old. Threatening to get your way and bailing on the game really doesn't hold a lot of weight with me or the team, and it just is counter productive.

We obviously all care a lot about the game and want things to be a certain way, but we have to have an appropriate approach to it all and be patient. We're all in this together. I don't want to see people go, be super upset about things, or be unrealistic about what we can and cannot do. We are legit doing the best we can and while we are making progress, we're still in recovery mode at CRS / WWII Online. It's not all sunshine and rainbows.

So we need to talk about issues with civil discourse, consider the options, see what we can viably do and then incorporate it.

That is the atmosphere that we're trying to create.

But by folks stomping and being irrational, they seize that from being possible. And this hurts the whole community's interaction with CRS. Would strongly recommend against this approach.

It was a joke made to demonstrate this very sentiment. As jwilly said though, humour/sarcasm can be hard to get across in text. 

I thought the Day 1 player, Day 2 son and Day 3 grandson thing would have made it apparent that it was a joke. :D Either that, or my better half is seriously talented. 

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1 hour ago, zippy said:

It was a joke made to demonstrate this very sentiment. As jwilly said though, humour/sarcasm can be hard to get across in text. 

I thought the Day 1 player, Day 2 son and Day 3 grandson thing would have made it apparent that it was a joke. :D Either that, or my better half is seriously talented. 

Good! I was hoping that be the case.

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7 hours ago, zippy said:

Watch it from 1:19

Seems pretty in control to me. 

 

Looks at 3:24 and imagine future  whines the other way around 

f06ff6f71a3c870296e9b067d6ec626c.png

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We should be adult enough to have the conversation that LMG fix will negatively impact Axis Infantrymen more than Allied Infantrymen, because the MG34 is such a superb weapon and is the weapon of choice for Axis infantrymen, so the gameplay has evolved into a LMG-centric position.

But I also think most rational players accept that the Rambo style needs to be addressed, across all nations and both sides.

So isn't the solution to gather from experienced, rational Axis players, the area of contention for the Axis side and to address any perceived imbalance (if considered genuine) at the same time as rolling out any change to LMG? If the two corrections are released at the same time, CRS can genuinely claim to be trying to address important factors for both sides simultaneously 

Edited by Silky
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Hello all,

On 12/20/2018 at 10:47 AM, Merlin51 said:

Be kind of hard, the barrel overheat.
Combination of firing pistol load rounds, firing rate, and ammo capacity, and general use.

I supposed you could, if you could jack enough constant ammo into it and lock the trigger down
but i think you would need to really try to cook it, might be hard to reproduce under average combat conditions/use

All guns suffer from barrel overheating. Mind you, you really have to work hard to significant overheat a rifle barrel. Semi-auto and then automatic weapons suffer the worst cases of barrel overheating. Submachine guns are no exception.

Most if not all WWII Online SMGs fire from an open bolt. On average in-game LMG's do as well. The open bolt is where the bolt is held back by the firing shear at the rear of its stroke. The next round is still sitting in the magazine lips and has not yet been chambered. The advantage of this is it allows airflow through the barrel to help in cool it. Additionally the round is held out of the potentially hot chamber reducing the chance of a cook off. The disadvantage is that when you pull the trigger to fire, there is a significant weight shift as the bolt closes, collecting and chambering the round on it forward passage. The net result is a shift of aim. If a SMG desires first round accuracy they will generally fire from a closed bolt. The act of pulling the trigger releases the firing pin to strike the primer and fire the round. No weight shift. A closed bolt weapon is more likely to suffer from a cook off as the round is chambered. As an aside Open Bolt firing weapons are generally easier to manufacture than the Closed Bolt counterparts, as they have a fixed firing pin. The simplification is, there is no need to separate the extraction and loading cycle from the firing cycle required by Closed Bolt firing weapons.

Cheers
James10

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2 hours ago, gavalink said:

My apologies if this been posted already:

 

@zippy @gavalink Very well. I think the way to go is to model the shoulder strap that this video talks about. So, as they prepare for hip firing, they first have to fuss about with attaching the shoulder strap to the weapon and slinging it around their neck. Then, before they are able to deploy on bipod, they need to remove themselves from the sling.

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16 hours ago, Merlin51 said:

While running?

If this a problem then ever weapon in game needs to be changed. People don’t accurately engage with any hand held weapon while running .  The barely do it while walking and even then it’s a very goofy flat walk, not a normal gate by any means. 

This means that rifles and smgs are also too accurate on the move. It would also mean that all weapons should be changes to reflect that reality. It’s like watching a debate about one side claiming the tooth fairy isn’t real but swearing santa is. 

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26 minutes ago, minky said:

If this a problem then ever weapon in game needs to be changed. People don’t accurately engage with any hand held weapon while running .  The barely do it while walking and even then it’s a very goofy flat walk, not a normal gate by any means. 

This means that rifles and smgs are also too accurate on the move. It would also mean that all weapons should be changes to reflect that reality. It’s like watching a debate about one side claiming the tooth fairy isn’t real but swearing santa is. 

 

Wrong.

The problem isn't about a gun being too accurate while on the move.

The problem is about weapons that *cannot* plausibly be fired while running. It is trivial for all firearms in the game to be fired in real life while moving at a jogging pace (not accurately of course).....but not the MG-34. Period.

If you want to see how to handle this realistically, look at how it's done in a game like Post Scriptum (or Squad, or ARMA 3 for that matter).

 

EDIT:
And about the hip-firing video (sigh).....

People are not understanding the issue. The issue is not about hip-firing the MG-34. The issue is about hip-firing it...while jogging!! This has been explained in thread after thread (going back 10+ years). Hip-firing the MG-34 is perfectly realistic. No, there is no need to model a freaking strap in the game. Hip-firing the MG-34 while jogging is complete laughable horse-sh*t and can be easily fixed by having the fire key automatically be tied to movement change (so that your character switches to walking movement every time the fire key is held down). Even that would still be unrealistic (ideally, someone hip-firing the MG-34 shouldn't be able to casually walk around like they're strolling through a park), but it would be the best compromise IMO.

Edited by xanthus
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12 hours ago, XOOM said:

I hope it is, and if so Zippy, sorry. But I do fully believe in and support my statement which is applicable throughout much of our forum boards.

WE CANNOT lose sight of the understanding that the WWII Online community is the ONLY reason this game continues on (by your financial support, and the folks who have stepped up to assist CRS - God bless you all). By yanking support, you're signing its death warrant. Don't, friggin, do it, if you want this thing to stay here.

What will CRS do?

We're going to continue trying our damndest as we have been. Please see the progress we've been making and understand that WE ARE IT with you. 

Sometimes I wonder if that truly resonates and is understood. Hoping to break through for some reality...

We have servers, people, and a variety of expenses to keep things going. It's not just some random magic happening to keep things going. It requires real work and effort, substantially more difficult than a lot of other game developers who offload their server and engine support off to third parties.

1) If this was brought up before I apologize (this thread is incredibly long). One thing that needs to be changed is the time for deployment and un-deployment of the LMG (both sides). There is no way that a LMG player, laying deployed in the top level of a depot capping, should be able to un-deploy his weapon, get up, and run away from a grenade. At the very least he should be forced to leave his weapon if he chooses to move. Fuse time on grenades needs to be shortened. Aiming and throwing grenades is harder in game than it is in real life as well. 

2) The whole cap model concept is broken. Way too much fighting in the cities. Army bases consistently in the middle of large cities. Have you ever considered moving the caps outside of the city to encourage more open field battles that would encourage tanks and inf working in unison? Maye have only one-two caps in the city proper, then that AB, FB, and an outpost or two outside of city that need to be capped to "claim" the city? just a thought. 

3) The ATG AI are way too Weak. Inf AI and Air AI is not so bad, but overall strengthening of the AI to the under-pop side might be a way to help the numbers imbalance, especially in TZ3 (just a thought). I think this would be easy to code and be fluid. The more underpop the side is, the stronger it's AI.

Edited by nc0gnet0

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2 minutes ago, nc0gnet0 said:

3) The ATG AI are way too Weak. Inf AI and Air AI is not so bad, but overall strengthening of the AI to the under-pop side might be a way to help the numbers imbalance, especially in TZ3 (just a thought). I think this would be easy to code and fluid. The more underpop the side is, the stronger it's AI.

Now THAT'S an idea. 

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the LMG's are all crippled by their deployment stance, clipping, and deployment fussiness

replacing hip-fire with aim down sights will solve every issue

 

make it slow to aim (bring to shoulder): no more automatic shotgun 180° sweeping

it'll never get the drop on someone while moving

with the ADS stance, they can replace the broken deployment stance. the guy will stop using his diaphragm to aim

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12 hours ago, XOOM said:

We're going to continue trying our damndest as we have been. Please see the progress we've been making and understand that WE ARE IT with you. 

Sometimes I wonder if that truly resonates and is understood. Hoping to break through for some reality...

We have servers, people, and a variety of expenses to keep things going. It's not just some random magic happening to keep things going. It requires real work and effort, substantially more difficult than a lot of other game developers who offload their server and engine support off to third parties.

there are things you guys have done that have unanimous support, like the 09 fix, HE, FB's stronger, and new units.
you should seriously think about the stuff that get flakk though. just brushing it off as unwarranted criticism isn't healthy.

 

nobody was upset about the 09 & HE, but there are a significant amount of people upset about things like the new ToE, spawn system, and LMG's.

you guys have shown you're capable of fixes without criticism (at least not a flood of it), why not try to alter the changes to get this unanimous support? instead of just shoving changes town an unwilling players throat

 

 

if customers are upset or bored, they stop playing.

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10 hours ago, Silky said:

We should be adult enough to have the conversation that LMG fix will negatively impact Axis Infantrymen more than Allied Infantrymen, because the MG34 is such a superb weapon and is the weapon of choice for Axis infantrymen, so the gameplay has evolved into a LMG-centric position.

But I also think most rational players accept that the Rambo style needs to be addressed, across all nations and both sides.

So isn't the solution to gather from experienced, rational Axis players, the area of contention for the Axis side and to address any perceived imbalance (if considered genuine) at the same time as rolling out any change to LMG? If the two corrections are released at the same time, CRS can genuinely claim to be trying to address important factors for both sides simultaneously 

The problem is it is being used in a role that is not consistent with WW2. Why? because the battle was not fought by "capping depots". Ignoring this is ignoring the elephant in the room. 

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54 minutes ago, xanthus said:

 

Wrong.

The problem isn't about a gun being too accurate while on the move.

The problem is about weapons that *cannot* plausibly be fired while running. It is trivial for all firearms in the game to be fired in real life while moving at a jogging pace (not accurately of course).....but not the MG-34. Period.

If you want to see how to handle this realistically, look at how it's done in a game like Post Scriptum (or Squad, or ARMA 3 for that matter).

 

EDIT:
And about the hip-firing video (sigh).....

People are not understanding the issue. The issue is not about hip-firing the MG-34. The issue is about hip-firing it...while jogging!! This has been explained in thread after thread (going back 10+ years). Hip-firing the MG-34 is perfectly realistic. No, there is no need to model a freaking strap in the game. Hip-firing the MG-34 while jogging is complete laughable horse-sh*t and can be easily fixed by having the fire key automatically be tied to movement change (so that your character switches to walking movement every time the fire key is held down). Even that would still be unrealistic (ideally, someone hip-firing the MG-34 shouldn't be able to casually walk around like they're strolling through a park), but it would be the best compromise IMO.

The first time I pulled the trigger on a firearm was age 7.  A .22 cal single shot rifle.  33 years later after firing multiple rifles, pistols, lmgs, and heavy mgs  for 26 of those years I feel like I have a pretty good feel for what's what.  I have yet to see a shooter that can accurately engage with ANY WEAPON at the jogging speed in this game, smgs included.  Ever wonder why those videos of swat teams always show them stacked up moving slowly?  Why isn't the whole stack running like a bat out of hell with their fancy modern smgs?  It could be because they can't accurate engage at running speed either.  

Oh, an you could conceivably fire an lmg while running.  I can shoulder fire an m60 and I have run with the thing.  I pretty sure I could have pulled the trigger on it as well while running.  I wouldn't have hit [censored] but I could have pulled the trigger on the thing. 

When it comes to shooting on the move this game handles all weapons unrealistically.  Every single one.  The fix needs to be applied across the board to all weapons not just lmgs.

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13 hours ago, XOOM said:

Side note / observation: These unsubscribe threats are getting pretty old. Threatening to get your way and bailing on the game really doesn't hold a lot of weight with me or the team, and it just is counter productive.

We obviously all care a lot about the game and want things to be a certain way, but we have to have an appropriate approach to it all and be patient. We're all in this together. I don't want to see people go, be super upset about things, or be unrealistic about what we can and cannot do. We are legit doing the best we can and while we are making progress, we're still in recovery mode at CRS / WWII Online. It's not all sunshine and rainbows.

So we need to talk about issues with civil discourse, consider the options, see what we can viably do and then incorporate it.

That is the atmosphere that we're trying to create.

But by folks stomping and being irrational, they seize that from being possible. And this hurts the whole community's interaction with CRS. Would strongly recommend against this approach.

You are going to get these reactions when there are decades old problems in game that don't even get a mention in the road map.  People can understand resource problems.  What they can't understand is a complete lack of recognition that there is a problem in some cases.

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2 hours ago, minky said:

If this a problem then ever weapon in game needs to be changed. People don’t accurately engage with any hand held weapon while running .  The barely do it while walking and even then it’s a very goofy flat walk, not a normal gate by any means. 

This means that rifles and smgs are also too accurate on the move. It would also mean that all weapons should be changes to reflect that reality. It’s like watching a debate about one side claiming the tooth fairy isn’t real but swearing santa is. 

+1

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38 minutes ago, minky said:

You are going to get these reactions when there are decades old problems in game that don't even get a mention in the road map.  People can understand resource problems.  What they can't understand is a complete lack of recognition that there is a problem in some cases.

I understand that the game has been around for awhile, and therefore several players have. However it is essential to have some understanding of where we really truly started to rebuild, and that began when I took over in March of 2015. At that time we still couldn't even build a new host fyi.

So when you say "decades old problems," it's really an unfair insinuation in every respect towards this team. 

I get it from a customer perspective, but I hope you can at least be honest in recognizing that I or the rest of my team cannot be held responsible for the past mis-steps or the lack of correction when our resources were incredibly more viable.

Make no mistake, we recognize it is now our responsibility to do something about it. But it's not a snap of the finger, it's not even weeks or months sometimes. Over the last year we have really truly started to be able to develop the game again. Remember how long it was before we had new Terrain for example?

This reverse engineering effort is extraordinary and the complication of managing such a huge and diverse (aging) code base is not for the faint of heart. 

Ultimately what I have to say will not appeal for your desire for action, but it is the truth and it needs to be understood at a minimum.

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Having "lived"  with and used a 34 for a few years, I can only support the XOOM stand on this one.

I have only one practical comment to add; you alway moved about in the field  with the bipod deployed. Then you just plonked the gun down and opened up simple as that. What took a sec or two was checking out the belt (loose not twisted etc).

We use a drum in WWIIOL (each man carrying 5 of them by the look of it) and I have used that as well but never used them in the field,. Prefered the belt for ease of handling, carrying etc.

Still my point is; that loading the thing was a two hand operation and you better be stationary with the gun preferably on the ground. A few things to control;  Feed the belt, hold it with ur right hand, close the lid with your left hand, feeder in the right pos and so on.

In real life you almost never filled up the belt with more than 45+ rounds, the first few free slots were used to hold the belt in position, as the feeder link was always missing....  :-)

I have fired a Bren on the range, but that is all, so I can`t say to much about that one.

As for the 34 I could go on but thats another story.

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1 hour ago, xanthus said:

No, there is no need to model a freaking strap in the game.

Yeah, in-case you could not tell when i posted that. It was pure sarcasm directed towards those who are ignoring the initial argument and keep posting these ridiculous videos as if they are the missing piece of evidence needed to justify their tone def argument. That's all.

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8 minutes ago, egilen said:

I have only one practical comment to add; you alway moved about in the field  with the bipod deployed. Then you just plonked the gun down and opened up simple as that. What took a sec or two was checking out the belt (loose not twisted etc).

That is true, but for the game, it needs to know if you mean to be deployed or not.
At least as it operates now.
If it was left to `auto deploy' so to speak, any time you got near a valid surface it would try deploying you, and if the surface was invalid
your guy would come down with a case of tourettes when you really just need him to shoot, someplace, anyplace, cause Ryman is running towards you with a knife.

Limitation of present code.
It does offload some stuff though to make a bit for it.
Never have to fiddle with the belt, or check the bolt, or eject a stuck round, or pull the butt plate back up, or re-situate the gun etc.
and it lets you jump back up and start running with out having to take the time to undeploy.
So i guess overall, it balances out a little, at least until some time in the future when a different way of determining if the gun is actually in a state
of stable fire or not, not to mention NOT starting to run before you are even at your knees after being prone LOL.
 

 

31 minutes ago, egilen said:

In real life you almost never filled up the belt with more than 45+ rounds, the first few free slots were used to hold the belt in position, as the feeder link was always missing....  :-)

You need to have strong words with your assistant gunner.
He is making you have to open the receiver cover for nothing.
Need to smack him about a little bit. :)
 

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2 hours ago, major0noob said:

there are things you guys have done that have unanimous support, like the 09 fix, HE, FB's stronger, and new units.
you should seriously think about the stuff that get flakk though. just brushing it off as unwarranted criticism isn't healthy.

I hope the impression is not that we just blow things off. Our continued involvement in the forums is recognition that we do care to talk about these issues and provide solutions where we can. Each of those changes you listed, have not had unanimous support fyi. The only thing I can think of recently that had unanimous support was the scrolling in and out of the map screen, server support, and the general buy-in that we all need to chip in to the success of WWII Online and its continuation. Those are things we all rally around.

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Yeah, when you had your no. 2 close at hand & deployed. He was bzy with the belt/ammobox, handling the lid, checking the feeder arm (pos to the left w bolt up front), holding the belt in pos.... Me with left hand on the stock, right hand keeping belt in pos and ready for charging the gun. Quite a "dance" on occasion. When alone you were very bzy. The mg3 was a bit better, you just slammed the lid down, bolt up front or not if I remember right.

Np with the bipod tech limit argumentation. Just felt like mention it

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