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Proposed LMG Fix

370 posts in this topic

29 minutes ago, Merlin51 said:

We really Seriously need to stop this myth nonsense.
"Ours cant hit a truck at 7 feet, theirs can headshot you at 200m, his does this but mine does that, his is a laser at 600m, mine is a shot gun""
Except no one will actually take the time to go look and find out that hmm, it isn't actually that way, like the other wonderful myth perpetuating in game among allies that the axis MG34 can deploy while the guy is standing and moving.

Go fire the MP 40 one round at a time and watch where the bullets go. It’s so ridiculous that it’s hilarious. The ballistics don’t make sense. This from a game that prides itself on realism. 

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I think a good solution would be to limit the turning speed of the LMG and that would probably solve almost all of the rambo LMG issues, as well as slow down the reload speed. Personally I get killed by rifles and SMGs more often than LMGs, but thats me I guess :/

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Look at the ridiculous muzzle climb on the mas 36 then see how low the bullets hit the target, natural reaction when firing this is to lower the weapon, this probably leads to most people's bad perception with this weapon. Needs fixing.

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2 minutes ago, goreblimey said:

Look at the ridiculous muzzle climb on the mas 36 then see how low the bullets hit the target, natural reaction when firing this is to lower the weapon, this probably leads to most people's bad perception with this weapon. Needs fixing.

Requires an animation fix, which is very difficult 

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51 minutes ago, minky said:

Actually there is a difference. .45 cal smgs tend to have a real issue with muzzle rise. Even to this day most smgs are chambered in 9mm. Even modern smgs chambered in .45  cal like the Kriss Vector get knocks against them for muzzle rise based more on the cartridge than anything. 

1687ty1.jpg

:P

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4 hours ago, augetout said:

It is ridiculous to take that attitude about something that is fixing a part of the game that is completely out of whack.  Given that it will effect Allied weapons as well, what in God's name would make you suggest that axis players will unsub en masse?  Does your side require the rambo-lmg in order to take flags?  No. 

I spend a good deal of my time guarding flags, and your SMGs clean my clock far more often than I would prefer to have happen.  If the german SMGs aren't as accurate as they should be, and that IS another subject, then they should be fixed in the upcoming small arms audit, right?  I would suggest 'going to the film' though, as undoubtedly Merlin51 will have a video showing the dispersion on all SMGs.  I will say the French mas38 is a pile of crud, so if the german SMGs are anything like the mas38, I feel for you.

 

We all know an lmg-wielding soldier should not be able to run in and clear a room/bunker.  

 

Threatening to unsub en masse if a flaw in the game is fixed is weak.  For the record, I wouldn't support it if Allied players demanded photon torpedos under threat of mass unsubs, either.

 

S!

if this were implemented with the rest of the small arms audit then i think it would be fine, as it stands the SMG's of all nations are 5-10x worse than historical versions.

back when HATCH asked us to provide data, i was prepared to comb through the internet for a hundred hours to do my part.  only took a comparison between the 20m fire in-game and a single page of historical data to break my faith in the current "realism"

 

there's no exaggeration in that 500-1000% worse, in some cases there's only 15cm deviation whereas in game it's up to 2m.

the german MP40 is especially bad in it's recoil, it's weight and spring should make almost no jump whereas in game it's like a paint shaker.

the MAS38 is basically a .22lr auto, should have no recoil at all.

the thompson has 1000% more dispersion than it should... this was in single shots

 

some are just plain bugged, like the MP34, it's off center and has the absolute worst stats among all nations. i treated it as a outlier and retested till it's best performance showed. if i were honest, it's data would be up to 2000% than the real version.

 

 

contrary to whats said in the fourms, the MP40 has little faith in-game, it's the absolute worse in terms of barrel hop and control-ability. the thompson and MAS38 are awful as well, but the axis SMG's are at the very bottom of a smelly barrel.

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For the record, we WILL be getting back to completing the small arms audit which will include the AR's SMG's and LMG's after the new year. Just have had too many other priorities for awhile to get to finishing it.

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3 minutes ago, HATCH said:

1687ty1.jpg

:P

I see a nice perfectly executed three round burst there. A technique still used to this day to control muzzle rise. 

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6 minutes ago, minky said:

I see a nice perfectly executed three round burst there. A technique still used to this day to control muzzle rise.

Could be. I couldn't find the image I was looking for which has some crusty old Sgt. doing it full auto in front of a group of new recruits. Lot more shells in the air in that one.

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26 minutes ago, HATCH said:

Could be. I couldn't find the image I was looking for which has some crusty old Sgt. doing it full auto in front of a group of new recruits. Lot more shells in the air in that one.

Would love to see the resulting target on the other end along with the image. The fact is that most people are not accurate with sustained automatic fire outside of a deployed LMG. It’s the whole reason that by the A2 version of the M16 rifle there was only a 3 round burst on the selector lever. Even then every range I went to had 5.56 holes in the baffles from people pulling the trigger too quickly and not resetting between bursts. 

Here is an article of a guy who can get 5 to 10 rounds bursts made practical at a distance of 10 yards.  Your pretty close up at that point.  Notice he talks about the difficulty in controlling muzzle rise.

https://www.ammoland.com/2017/07/thompson-1928a1-submachine-gun/#axzz5Z8dy8MfQ

Edited by minky

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3 hours ago, OLDZEKE said:

Best as I know only the BAR will be shoulder fired, as it is now.

And the FG42. They qualify as automatic rifleman.

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42 minutes ago, HATCH said:

For the record, we WILL be getting back to completing the small arms audit which will include the AR's SMG's and LMG's after the new year. Just have had too many other priorities for awhile to get to finishing it.

Indeed. As we can see by this thread, there's no doubt a lot of value in it. Which we already knew, but the extra thread participation does add emphasis.

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No Firing the LMGs (all nations) in sprint or jogging mode , only allow firing in the walking mode.

When standing they can shoulder fire , walking only hip fire.

That should make all happy, or not ? 

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47 minutes ago, goreblimey said:

Look at the ridiculous muzzle climb on the mas 36 then see how low the bullets hit the target, natural reaction when firing this is to lower the weapon, this probably leads to most people's bad perception with this weapon. Needs fixing.

yes, the MAS38 has a not good animation
it needs fixing because it is not in harmony with the actual physics
You have to consult with Yoda when shooting, it is the sticky dot in center of screen poster child.

Infantry animations are difficult, so will take some doing to correct, Granny seems to be its own special art form.

1 hour ago, minky said:

Go fire the MP 40 one round at a time and watch where the bullets go. It’s so ridiculous that it’s hilarious. The ballistics don’t make sense. This from a game that prides itself on realism. 

While i can not claim that any given weapon is doing its best base scenario (keep in mind we dont bench shoot in game, we are in combat) small arms audit
will judge that, None of them are so baddly borked in their ballistics physics to be so totally unplausible to use. (ok maybe the webbley, but i think it was fixed?)
Even the MAS38, whose animation is of out of step with its reality, more so than possibly any infantry weapon in game, still has it's physics in the right ballpark.

But here is the MP40 as that is what you asked for, standing and prone

And since paper is boring, and paper never comes running toward you to kill you

Standing, crouching and prone, and running around like a nutter

Where is the un-usable part other than a jogging attack proves to be terribly ineffective.

Again, not saying that any of them are or are not hitting their optimal best shot grouping,
but where in this is the MP40 showing to be laughably hysterically ineffective?

MP40 running around like a retard (I make no claims about my ability to actually aim and hit anything)

Feel free to show me what i am missing, the horribly hysterical unusable part

 

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in 1:31, all the shots should be in the 2 center circles, there's a 1m spread in the video you posted...

in the second,at 026-0:31, the first and last in the line weren't even hit, 0:38 should never ever happen. at worst the gun should hit in the sight hood's edges, there are several examples of it hitting far outside right at the start of the video

 

 

a 1m spread

Edited by major0noob

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Well it seems to be reality---  you wanted  OUR opinions and the few WHO disagreed with what you are going to do, GET CENSORED AND post's removed, WHY EVEN HAVE this discussion then? IF IT WAS ALL READY SET IN STONE BY THE ALLIED WHINERS AND CRS, like i said before, just to appease the axis by asking and not listening to them because it was already going to be done,-------------------- bet this post wont last long either, some allied will have got offended by it

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I think at a minimum the LMG user still needs to be able to WALK and shoot at the same time.  Everyone knows you die in this game if you can not keep moving.

If you guys just nerf the LMG like suggested at the top of this thread - then no one will use the LMG at all.  It will be worse than a rifle.  You guys might as well just pull the LMG weapon out of the game entirely.  It wouldn’t be needed.

The LMG needs to have some kind of other purpose (special advantage) if it has to remain stationary while fired.  Right now it really doesn’t.  

That is why I suggested as an alternative giving the LMG some SUPPRESSION  FIRE ability to offset what you guys are taking away for it.  It would be historical.

This needs to be a part of this conversation I think -  It is relevant to this discussion.

Right now you guys are just talking about crippling the LMG without considering what purpose it will have in the game after this hapoens.

The LMG is one of my favororite weapons to use in this game.  I must admit I may not be too happy with CRS if you guys just kill the weapon system entirely so it has no use in this game at all afterward.

Please think very carefully about what you guys are proposing to do.  This is a very sensative topic in this community.  Its a real “hot potato.”  You guys may now lose some subscriptions no matter what happens now - because the axis and allies have a serious love-hate attitude when it comes to the LMG. lol.

 

 

Edited by krazydog

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Quote

 

The LMG needs to have some kind of other purpose (special advantage) if it has to remain stationary while fired.  Right now it really doesn’t.  

That is why I suggested as an alternative giving the LMG some SUPPRESSION  FIRE ability to offset what you guys are taking away for it.  It would be historical.

 

Per direction to keep this thread on topic, I'll start a separate thread on suppression.

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1 hour ago, xcas said:

Well it seems to be reality---  you wanted  OUR opinions and the few WHO disagreed with what you are going to do, GET CENSORED AND post's removed, WHY EVEN HAVE this discussion then? IF IT WAS ALL READY SET IN STONE BY THE ALLIED WHINERS AND CRS, like i said before, just to appease the axis by asking and not listening to them because it was already going to be done,-------------------- bet this post wont last long either, some allied will have got offended by it

Or -  try making a post without the histrionics and it'll stay around (as several posts critical of the potential decision have). 

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logo.png

Consolidated Service Record (CSR) 2.4

 

Sortie Detail for sw1

General Kills Captures
Sortie ID: 87747
Country: UK
Branch: Army
Sortie Start: 2018-12-08 18:41:52
Sortie End: 2018-12-08 18:55:51
Title: Point Attack
Killer: xcas, DE LMG
Weapon: UK SMG
Origin: Schilde
Facility: Schilde-Oostmalle FB
Score: 168
Kills: 6
Hits: 12
Captures: 2
Result: KIA
Time Player Name Weapon
Dec 08 18:53 pondfish DE Rifleman
Dec 08 18:53 bugeater DE Engineer
Dec 08 18:54 xcas DE LMG
Dec 08 18:54 bandi DE SMG
Dec 08 18:54 pondfish DE SMG
Dec 08 18:55 xcas DE LMG
Time Town Facility
2018-12-08 18:51:04 Oostmalle Oostmalle-Hoogstraten Depot
2018-12-08 18:55:25 Oostmalle Oostmalle-Turnhout Depot

SO tell once again HOW the lmg is so UBER when it takes 6 guys dead and me on the 3rd try with a lmg to kill 1 ei smg capping a cp in oostmalle---- AND dont say well he was a better shot because i have been playing since 1st yr of the game and have been in the top 10 LMG stats  for so many campaigns cant remember, so in my eyes and MANY axis players, crs is just giving into allies bias whine  once again.  and see what happens.

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7 hours ago, delems said:

Well, you're basically removing the axis only descent weapon.
Axis have many decent weapons, MG34s running while firing on full auto was not one of them (nor anyone elses)

No more Grenadier, terrible now; can't kill anything.
No different than ANYONE'S grenades currently, or anything with shrapnel
nothing axis only there at all, so let's not make it seem that way, soon as hatch can get the work on the squishy DM people will be dying
from all kinds of frags

88 wrong for years, zoom promised it would strike fear again... years ago... nothing.
Define wrong in the sense of lacking to strike fear?
Lack of gunshield, yes does help some, if you are taking small arms fire from the front.
Does jack nothing if you are taking return fire from a tank or ATG, or being straffed from the air, or flanked by evil EI.
It was not a gunshield or lack of one that made the 88 feared, it was the people using it and how.
It needs a shield, but that doesnt make it feared

Fighters terrible. (ok, exception 109e4/b seems working good)
Cant say because i suck, i do ok in a 109e1 though, better than someone who shall remain nameless's p38

Bombers slow - terrible.
Yes, the HE111 is slow, no one can argue that.
Packs a hell of a punch, but she doesn't move none too fast

Panzers, paper armor.
No, panzers are cardboard armor, well except the tiger, and the stug, actually some of the continued models get a bit better in their revisions
Brit tanks are paper, except the matty and churchill
And the native french tanks are are slow little monsters as far as armor goes.
But they are what they are/were, not something you can change really, cant hand a guy a welder and a bunch of 30mm plate and say have at it.

Tank destroyers, no MG on Stug IIIG or StuH. (think Stug IIIB didn't have em generally - so that prolly correct)
True, time is needed to see about how to put them on where they existed, though they are a bit in the same boat as the M10
limited traverse of MG, and never seems to be pointing where needed, but some possibility is better than none
 

CS tanks - every allied CS tank a monster with a MG- and get like 5x the number of them, KD over 4 this map already?
You may have to clarify monster, they only are armed with low velocity howitzers, and shoot HE and smoke and shoot MG
Axis have smoke added to some combat units, which is proper for them, and some of the stugs iirc
It's an option the brits did not have, they had no smoke for the atg guns and had to use dedicated cs tanks

ATG, allied tier 0 spawns from MS and kills EVERY tier axis panzer; what does the axis tier 0 ATG that spawns from a MS kill?
Well the 25mm one does not kill everything, maybe if you turn around and let it have a close range free shot.
The 2pdr, yes it will kill a lot of things, though not everything can it kill frontally, it is the only atg the british had employed until they got larger ones
but they did not have a smaller one for them to use.
The PAK36, while still a PAK36, does much better with its proper gunsight and proper ammo.
Matilda and B1 still suck to run into, and i am sure real german pak36 veterans would agree

Armored cars, allied tier 0 AC kills EVERY tier panzer, how many tanks does the 232 kill?  Not to mention 5x quieter than 232.
Well brit AC uses a 2pdr, so it will kill what a 2pdr can kill, by hitting the same spots at same ranges a 2pdr can, though that does not mean it can kill
all things at any angle, at any range.
French AC uses the 25mm, so same as above.
Axis AC uses a 25mm auto cannon, no, it does not kill a lot of tanks, it did not in real life.
I doubt anyone made many attempts to engage tanks with it in real life, though you can take out the A13 and A15s with it and the vickers
but not much else, it is no more lethal than the PZII, the PUMA did not come along until later, we only have T0 ACs at the moment

MP34 terrible, are you kidding me?  Grease gun was fixed with emergency patch 2 years ago- nada on the mp34 this entire time.
It could be better, i do agree, it was a much better gun than the MP40
I am not sure if i call it terrible, i like using it, but it could be better yes

Bolt rifles even, like to know the cycle rates, cause I hear brit and french and they sound way faster - what are the specs?
Only thing i can tell you there was that the british rifle had a very fast bolt action, fast enough that it was much noted for it.
Can not say for the french nor do i have a MAS36

I won't mention the silent coasting trucks, ok, maybe I will.
You can but this and much of the other, has very little if anything to do with LMG's
But, coasting trucks (on all sides) require something more than some simple fix
It requires work in multiple areas, or it wont be a fix, it will be a hack with weird consequences.
Trust me, it will come in time, and then you may wish to give thought to securing control of roads and bridges.

Name one thing left?
Personally?
I like the T0 Stug and PZIV, HEAT is always such a surprise even to later tier allied armor.
I like the PZIIc, just not for fighting tanks, but for ambushing trucks and scout cars and such, and direct supporting infantry pushes.
I love the 251 for hauling live infantry through a town.
I like the MP34 even if it sounds stupid to, and i like the K98 sights better than the brit sights

Hmmm, LMG - now you going to change that, and on top of it, give allies more power by allowing them to shoulder theirs.
? Shoulder what exactly ?
The BAR? It's a rifle, a big fat heavy cumbersome one, but ergonomically it is a rifle.
The FG42 you can shoulder also, it's axis by the way.
Bren FM24 MG34 would require a large amount of animation work to have any of them shoulder fire.

Oh, that's right, the 15  FG-42 we get in tier 3 will balance it all out....  and in my perspective, whoopdi do... navy don't get any.
Navy are KM
FG42 are actually an FJ only weapon, but in real life the LW at a point pretty much relegated the FJ to ground based operation
and since the game has no way to splinter off the FJ to go to non airbase locations, the only way to reflect it in game is to put some of them in the Heer

 

2 hours ago, major0noob said:

in 1:31, all the shots should be in the 2 center circles, there's a 1m spread in the video you posted...

in the second,at 026-0:31, the first and last in the line weren't even hit, 0:38 should never ever happen. at worst the gun should hit in the sight hood's edges, there are several examples of it hitting far outside right at the start of the video

 

 

a 1m spread

Well...
1) I am standing at 1:31 instead of being prone
2) You are depending on my expert ability to aim, you ever watch how much i die in the game?
3) as you can see, i am not spending a heck of a lot of time to relocate target, nor drop the aim fatigue until it gets annoying
you dont normally get to do that stuff in game cause someone shoots you.

2nd video
Well again, you are relying on my ability to aim, and i am standing, and the clones are back at the 2nd target line, not the first.
at 38 seconds, you realize the guys are behind the darned target model which seems to be a bit quirky, maybe its collider is funky as shooting stuff behind it
is a little weird, i notice same thing shooting other guns there also.
Yes dumb of me to put them there.

And yes, all the guns have a potential to spit out the odd round
I guess that was a compromise to having them jam or misfire or what not, but they all do it for what ever reason, maybe to add some drama of the unknown?
But aside from that, and a lot of my suckyness, would you not agree that the MP40 is quite effective in normal smg combat range
even while in motion.

I am not saying perfect, nor that any are perfect, but i think the MP40 looks far from hysterically unusable.

ALso keep in mind, no gun in game is going to fire in game to bench specifications, simply because we are not in a bench environment
If nothing else, the bench never shoots back at you, though it might tip over your beer when you are not looking.
 

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About muzzle climb,What if we removed customized mouse sensistivity while firing, tempirarily using a default one? So that the effect is the same for everyone.

 

 

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Hmm. The MP40 wildly inaccurate? Really? I test fired it at the range today. Using single fire I was able to shoot very tight groupings indeed. Far tighter than any other smg. Cannot for the life of me understand what you are talking about.

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36 minutes ago, Merlin51 said:

But aside from that, and a lot of my suckyness, would you not agree that the MP40 is quite effective in normal smg combat range
even while in motion.

no... it has a 1m spread

 

5 minutes ago, dragoz said:

Hmm. The MP40 wildly inaccurate? Really? I test fired it at the range today. Using single fire I was able to shoot very tight groupings indeed. Far tighter than any other smg. Cannot for the life of me understand what you are talking about.

it's not just the MP40, all SMG's are inaccurate. their real life counterparts are much more accurate and have less violent recoil.

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1 hour ago, xcas said:
logo.png

Consolidated Service Record (CSR) 2.4

 

Sortie Detail for sw1

General Kills Captures
Sortie ID: 87747
Country: UK
Branch: Army
Sortie Start: 2018-12-08 18:41:52
Sortie End: 2018-12-08 18:55:51
Title: Point Attack
Killer: xcas, DE LMG
Weapon: UK SMG
Origin: Schilde
Facility: Schilde-Oostmalle FB
Score: 168
Kills: 6
Hits: 12
Captures: 2
Result: KIA
Time Player Name Weapon
Dec 08 18:53 pondfish DE Rifleman
Dec 08 18:53 bugeater DE Engineer
Dec 08 18:54 xcas DE LMG
Dec 08 18:54 bandi DE SMG
Dec 08 18:54 pondfish DE SMG
Dec 08 18:55 xcas DE LMG
Time Town Facility
2018-12-08 18:51:04 Oostmalle Oostmalle-Hoogstraten Depot
2018-12-08 18:55:25 Oostmalle Oostmalle-Turnhout Depot

SO tell once again HOW the lmg is so UBER when it takes 6 guys dead and me on the 3rd try with a lmg to kill 1 ei smg capping a cp in oostmalle---- AND dont say well he was a better shot because i have been playing since 1st yr of the game and have been in the top 10 LMG stats  for so many campaigns cant remember, so in my eyes and MANY axis players, crs is just giving into allies bias whine  once again.  and see what happens.

Xcas, ok since you want stats I went and dug somethings up. I went to the stats.wwiionline.com and did a comparison of Previous Campaigns for the British LMG, French LMG and Axis LMG and removed everything except infantry. Again not a single CRS member has said this will happen. Its a discussion. Threatening to quit and getting irrational is not productive and most likely why posts were hidden. I didnt hear you complain when the British Grenadier HEAT round was removed from the game completely. We want to know how to fix a game mechanic here, and do this in a way that alters the Rambo factor but preserves the original utilization of the LMG class.

cf4411af9e2a3c2d03dfeb3bc86a0d19.png

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