XOOM

Proposed LMG Fix

370 posts in this topic

 

29 minutes ago, Kilemall said:

I always understood our divisions to be the cutting edge mechanized ones, not the follow-up ones.

In the 1940 German army, the "cutting edge mechanized" divisions such as Rommel's panzer division had entirely horse drawn supply elements and artillery. Some of the infantry walked, as well. The only motorized infantry elements were the recon infantry battalion and part of the panzer grenadier regiment.

The 1940 British army was entirely motorized, though much of the infantry was moved in buses rather than trucks and therefore was road-limited. The 1940 French army had some entirely motorized units, but most infantry divisions walked and had horse transport for most supplies. Next most motorized was the Belgians. Overall, the Germans were the least motorized of the four 1940 primary-combatant armies.

However, Killer's early-days comment about game marketing remains valid: a small company cannot take the risk of trying to market a game in most Western countries in which horses, dogs or civilian humans are military targets, therefore they cannot be modeled.

Edited by jwilly
1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/7/2018 at 8:58 PM, XOOM said:

Hey all,

Tonight I dove into the code and our data directory, and I'd like to discuss the following as a compromise for the light machine gun class, which covers the: MG34, Bren Gun and the French FM24/29.

Proposed Changes:

  1. Disable firing while moving under ANY conditions
  2. Increase non-aimed (hip fire) dispersion
  3. Increase hip fire muzzle climb
  4. Make reloading a stationary task (only)
  5. Firing LMG will reduce stamina some (does recover)

This would still enable some sort of firing, but you need to either be stationary, or otherwise deployed supporting your Squad.

The BAR and FG42 are considered automatic rifleman which is why they're not included in these changes.

The other option would be completely disabling firing of the LMG's unless you've deployed your bipod. We think the proposed change can help quell this option however.

These really are the options at this stage other than to maintain the status quo, which we do not believe will be ideal.

Okay, discuss, but be productive.

 

+1

Sounds good to me. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, jwilly said:

 

In the 1940 German army, the "cutting edge mechanized" divisions such as Rommel's panzer division had entirely horse drawn supply elements and artillery. Some of the infantry walked, as well. The only motorized infantry elements were the recon infantry battalion and part of the panzer grenadier regiment.

The 1940 British army was entirely motorized, though much of the infantry was moved in buses rather than trucks and therefore was road-limited. The 1940 French army had some entirely motorized units, but most infantry divisions walked and had horse transport for most supplies. Next most motorized was the Belgians. Overall, the Germans were the least motorized of the four 1940 primary-combatant armies.

In fact, the German army remained mostly horse drawn for the rest of the war, due to near economic collapse due to a severe shortage of oil. If CRS were ever to go hyper-realistic, there would be less motorised vehicles in Tier 3 then there are in Tier 0. The British and French armies on the other hand would probably up the ante in terms of mechanization due to relatively open routes to procure large sums of oil fairly easily via the USA.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The "near economic collapse", wherever you read that - didnt happen until late 1944 early 1945...certainly NOT in 1940 - 1943...

 

Also, lets not forget the Redball Express which basically choked itself trying to deliver fuel to the rather overmotorized allied divisions, and while doing so used about as much fuel as the divisions themselves...

 

A Horse otoh, can live off the land, doesnt require lubricants/coolants/spare parts and FUEL, every single item woud have to be produced and transported and can, under dire circumstances, be consumed.

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, gsc said:

The "near economic collapse", wherever you read that - didnt happen until late 1944 early 1945...certainly NOT in 1940 - 1943...

 

Also, lets not forget the Redball Express which basically choked itself trying to deliver fuel to the rather overmotorized allied divisions, and while doing so used about as much fuel as the divisions themselves...

 

A Horse otoh, can live off the land, doesnt require lubricants/coolants/FUEL and can, under dire circumstances, be consumed.

"In late May 1941, General Adolf von Schell, the man responsible for the German vehicle motor industry, seriously suggested that in light of the chronic oil shortage situation it would be advisable to carry out a partial 'demotorisation' of the Wehrmacht. Source: Wages of Destruction, pg 412 by Tooze, 2006.

The British blockade of Germany disallowed for imports of oil from the US and the fact that Romanian oil production wouldn't suffice for the German economy to run smoothly led to the German thrust east to secure the oil reserves of Baku. This was one of the factors that led to Barbarossa. In March 1941, when discussing petroleum,

"General Eduard Wagner, the QM General of the German army gave a gloomy prognosis to Chief of Staff Franz Halder, informing him that once Germany lost its imports from the Soviet Union, its existing stocks were only enough for two months of large scale offensive consumption."

Toprani, PHD.

The German oil crisis was becoming a major problem and was probably one of the deciding factors of the Second World War. In addition, the US produced 25x more oil than all of Germany at its peak COMBINED. In 1940 the US produced 180 million tonnes of oil, followed by Venezuela and the Soviet Union, with 27 million and 30 million tonnes respectively.

"As a result of the fuel crisis, the Wehrmacht was forced to rely extensively on horse drawn transport which led to further problems,"

Ostkrieg, pg 38.

I apologise for going offtopic.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I threw out a proposal that was intended for an eventual 'players build their own brigade', sort of the evolved version of the RDP process where the brigades would be customized.

One of the tradeoffs was how many trucks you had versus how much gas guzzling equipment the trucks were supporting.  I figured the easiest method was either dividing the tonnage or the point value by the carry capacity of each truck x # of trucks,.

That value would determine brigade movement speed.

So just a rough example, say you had a 5000 point inf brigade and a 10000 point armor brigade, 50 trucks each.  Inf would have a speed of 100, armor of 200 (slower).

Then that speed would be reduced by number of trucks destroyed, and you wouldn't get brigade speed back until your replacement trucks arrived or you got overstocked.  Overstocking before losses could get you faster.

So you could have someone that overloads the tanks but are always starved for road movement fuel.

 

Of course not worth devving now with the current direction in mind, but just shows a mechanism that could highlight the sluggy French and relatively light fast logistically equipped Axis units, then as the war goes on the Axis equipment gets heavier and more capable but the truck park remains the same so they get slower, while the Americans are overloaded with trucks and therefore have better road speed and faster strategic movement.

 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well arguably WWII was about up and coming militarized societies seeking to capture the oil their forces and industries required.

 

Germany was on the tippy toe of supply disaster but squeaked through, the turn south to the Stalingrad area was largely a bid to 'fuel up' on Caucasus oil.  Failing to secure that hurt badly, requiring resort to coal gasification and wood-burning trucks at the end.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer–Tropsch_process#History

 

USSR advances in Eastern Europe cut off other resource flows.

However, Germany was not on the brink of industrial collapse until very late 1944/1945, that is accurate as well.  Review the USSBS for relevant docs. 

An important aspect of fuel shortages was impacts on pilot training.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I think you guys are putting the cart before the horse, (see what I did there) can we get this topic back on track?

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well ... i think from the CRS perspective you would be best suited to implement a change to the lmg's and couple that with some other changes in the same vein. Maybe the unrealistic truck coasting that seems to favor allies. Point being, i think we can gather that if this change is released on it's own, regardless how it uniformly affects both sides, there will be a faction of people using it to support a narrative they wish to push. I guess i don't know that it will matter in the end ... but at least multiple things get fixed.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, BLKHWK8 said:

I think you guys are putting the cart before the horse, (see what I did there) can we get this topic back on track?

Not going to happen...LOL

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

can't argue against the MG34's lopsided performance.

 

but rifle dancing in a CP is really silly, and the LMG's will be restricted into a bugged state with their shoot me pose.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, major0noob said:

but rifle dancing in a CP is really silly

I dunno, it can be intense actually.
Do i reload, or pull knife now?
What is he going to do?
Crap he pulled knife!
Run!!
Fumble for knife
DAMMIT!!
hit grenade by mistake
OK i can do this, drop grenade, keep running
try to drag him over grenade

BOOM!

Nothing

Crap!

Pull knife, PULL KNIFE!!!

WTF?? Shovel?
Dammit, cant swing shovel!

WHERE IS MY KNIFE!!!!
 

 

25 minutes ago, major0noob said:

LMG's will be restricted into a bugged state with their shoot me pose.

Trying to visualize this?
Which is the shoot me pose?

2 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

merlin, there's no point in debating with you.

you even refuse to recognize bugs.

 

what are you trying to accomplish? all you do is discredit and obfuscate.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, major0noob said:

you even refuse to recognize bugs.

? how can i recognize it, you wont show me a picture of it?
What is the bugged state with the "shoot me" pose?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, Merlin51 said:

? how can i recognize it, you wont show me a picture of it?
What is the bugged state with the "shoot me" pose?

He means if you cant shoot the lmg unless standing still then it becomes the allied player is shooting a statue, since the lmg cant do anything but stand there and watch you dance around with a smg knife pistol, so basically the lmg will go on the wayside just like the 88, nobody will use it

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

no, deploy the LMG, he aims with his chest, exposing the upper thirdof his body instead of his head.

i totally forgot they have pistols...

 

all for the proposed fix now

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I  played only  axis from about 2004 to 2112 with my primary account. I've  never used the lmg to clear cps because I think it is kinda lame game play.  I always use smg because that is what it is for.  As allied I've seen many times where axis lmg clears 5 or 6 guys from a cp then holds it by himself against many allied assaults. Won't be as easy if grenades start working but please do  make it harder to rambo with lmg, it is lame game play for a wwii simulation game. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, major0noob said:

no, deploy the LMG, he aims with his chest, exposing the upper third of his body instead of his head.

So you are not seeing them working like this?
Wonder how/when their animation might have got borked then? 1:44 - 3:05

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, xcas said:

He means if you cant shoot the lmg unless standing still then it becomes the allied player is shooting a statue, since the lmg cant do anything but stand there and watch you dance around with a smg knife pistol, so basically the lmg will go on the wayside just like the 88, nobody will use it

Well, if you come and knife/rilfe dance around me and i have an MG34, i'd like to think that i spray lots of 8mm holes in your liver.
I maybe can not run (while shooting), but i can turn and pew pew pew

I can still chase you, i just have to stop a sec to hit the trigger, and i can run away etc.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I just wanted to let everyone know in this forum, we at CRS appreciate the feedback given on the LMG issue. We are taking all the feedback into consideration. CRS has a few ideas on this that @hatch mentioned, but would not be released until the .30 cal and other "true" LMGs. Currently most of these ideas would require some development resources which currently are focused on  1.36. 
This obviously is not something we will rush into and deploy which is the whole point of this thread. 

Going forward we will have other threads looking for feedback on issues and the future of the game (Roadmaps etc).

In the short term we are looking forward to the Holidays and giving back to the community with some nice goodies. Then the Beta testing of 1.36 with its ultimate release. 

 

6 people like this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Generally I always try to avoid commenting in the forums in my 15 years playing but this change is odd.  Changing the LMG which I know it was stated goes after all is really only after the Axis version.  This is from a large complaint department from the Allied section.   If hurting the Axis LMG would increase player numbers helping CRS stay in business then I’m all for it but this will not and will only make one side not complain for a short while.  This is a knee jerk reaction like days of old depending on what squad complained the loudest.  We really shouldn’t go back to the ways of old since they were not all grand. 

1 person likes this

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2018-12-11 at 3:05 PM, tribard said:

I  played only  axis from about 2004 to 2112 with my primary account. I've  never used the lmg to clear cps because I think it is kinda lame game play.  I always use smg because that is what it is for.  As allied I've seen many times where axis lmg clears 5 or 6 guys from a cp then holds it by himself against many allied assaults. Won't be as easy if grenades start working but please do  make it harder to rambo with lmg, it is lame game play for a wwii simulation game. 

Well....I have been playing that long as well...and NEVER have I EVER been able to do what you just said, clear a cp of 5-6 people. Try as I might and suck as I do, I know :)

Perhaps it's more a connection thing. The LMG player  had a good connection on that occassion, the allied players had less good.

I mean does it happen every single time, or even the majority of the time.... one axis lmg clearing 5-6 people..?????

Once a defender is in..that's a bit different..

Anyway...The only way I stay alive is continually moving, lol

And even then

S!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 2018-12-10 at 9:55 PM, major0noob said:

merlin, there's no point in debating with you.

you even refuse to recognize bugs.

 

what are you trying to accomplish? all you do is discredit and obfuscate.

Not accurate. Not fair. Though on occassion perhaps. And yes I think noobs are cool too.

S! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.