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Proposed LMG Fix

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xanthus

FWIW, I always maintained that the issue isn't moving when firing the LMG (specifically the MG34); it's firing while jogging.

There are three inf movement speeds (when on foot); walking (press t), jogging (default), sprint.

Firing the MG34 while jogging is pure fantasy garbage, plain and simple. There is NO video ANYWHERE of this happening (unless it's some idiot doing a stunt) because it did NOT happen.

My proposal (the same proposal I first posted on these forums ~10 years ago) is to make it so that when someone fires an LMG, they automatically switch to the walk speed. Very simple. In lieu of that, I would be fine with no movement during fire (because even though this isn't 100% perfectly realistic, it's still vastly more realistic than the way it is now...and it would be a good approximation of the sort of real hip-fire that actually happened in WWII anyway).

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raptor34
9 minutes ago, xanthus said:

FWIW, I always maintained that the issue isn't moving when firing the LMG (specifically the MG34); it's firing while jogging.

There are three inf movement speeds (when on foot); walking (press t), jogging (default), sprint.

Firing the MG34 while jogging is pure fantasy garbage, plain and simple. There is NO video ANYWHERE of this happening (unless it's some idiot doing a stunt) because it did NOT happen.

My proposal (the same proposal I first posted on these forums ~10 years ago) is to make it so that when someone fires an LMG, they automatically switch to the walk speed. Very simple. In lieu of that, I would be fine with no movement during fire (because even though this isn't 100% perfectly realistic, it's still vastly more realistic than the way it is now...and it would be a good approximation of the sort of real hip-fire that actually happened in WWII anyway).

Seems very reasonable.

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jwilly

The greatest functionality pushback is with regard to running into a room, then spinning while firing to kill all occupants.

The unrealism of that comes from the rotational inertia of the long, heavy weapon, and the lack of physical control when rapidly spinning while firing such a high-recoil weapon. The videos we all have looked at, show that successful upright long-burst firing of such guns requires bracing oneself. That's not consistent with spinning.

The proposal...auto-shift to walk speed when firing while upright...would do nothing about spin-while-firing.

The Xoom-proposed option #1 ("disable firing while moving under ANY conditions") similarly would do nothing about spin-while-firing, unless rotation is to be re-defined to be "movement". AFAIK, rotation is not currently considered "movement", i.e. a prone soldier cannot "move" but can rotate.

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minky
8 minutes ago, jwilly said:

The greatest functionality pushback is with regard to running into a room, then spinning while firing to kill all occupants.

The unrealism of that comes from the rotational inertia of the long, heavy weapon, and the lack of physical control when rapidly spinning while firing such a high-recoil weapon. The videos we all have looked at, show that successful upright long-burst firing of such guns requires bracing oneself. That's not consistent with spinning.

The proposal...auto-shift to walk speed when firing while upright...would do nothing about spin-while-firing.

The Xoom-proposed option #1 ("disable firing while moving under ANY conditions") similarly would do nothing about spin-while-firing, unless rotation is to be re-defined to be "movement". AFAIK, rotation is not currently considered "movement", i.e. a prone soldier cannot "move" but can rotate.

Truthfully weapon weight should be considered with every weapon in game.  LMG's are extremely heavy and movement should be slowed down to compensate for the extra weight.  Some weapons that you wouldn't think are heavy actually are as well.  Take the Thompson for example, if you have ever held one you know it's kind of a brick.  The thing weighs like 12 pounds.  More than a modern M16 battle rifle.  In the case of the Thompson it worked out in a good way though.  The recoil would be far less manageable otherwise.  The point is though that the spin factor should be accounted for with different weights of all the weapons.  WWII rifles were much heavier than their modern counterparts.  

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major0noob
8 hours ago, xanthus said:

FWIW, I always maintained that the issue isn't moving when firing the LMG (specifically the MG34); it's firing while jogging.

There are three inf movement speeds (when on foot); walking (press t), jogging (default), sprint.

Firing the MG34 while jogging is pure fantasy garbage, plain and simple. There is NO video ANYWHERE of this happening (unless it's some idiot doing a stunt) because it did NOT happen.

My proposal (the same proposal I first posted on these forums ~10 years ago) is to make it so that when someone fires an LMG, they automatically switch to the walk speed. Very simple. In lieu of that, I would be fine with no movement during fire (because even though this isn't 100% perfectly realistic, it's still vastly more realistic than the way it is now...and it would be a good approximation of the sort of real hip-fire that actually happened in WWII anyway).

+1, too many times this devolves to removing hip fire completely

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Capco

Some folks are extra passionate about their room brooms.  

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major0noob

the same thing can be achieved by adding ADS to all LMG's, and forcing them to ADS-fire instead of hip-fire.

make the bring to bear time long, and the ADS turn speed slow. everything's solved, while adding a cool new functionality

 

no more spinning, no shotgun/grenade effect, no kill trades, and they'll be more fun to use. they'll also look better, currently they shoot at the ground in third person while their shots go forward.

Edited by major0noob

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kchip

havent logged in over a week this camp. Seriously rethinking reup

 

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jwilly
37 minutes ago, major0noob said:

the same thing can be achieved by adding ADS to all LMG's, and forcing them to ADS-fire instead of hip-fire.

make the bring to bear time long, and the ADS turn speed slow. everything's solved, while adding a cool new functionality

no more spinning, no shotgun/grenade effect, no kill trades, and they'll be more fun to use. they'll also look better, currently they shoot at the ground in third person while their shots go forward.

I guess I'm just slow today...ADS?

Attention Deficit Syndrome? Automatic Death System?

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BLKHWK8
27 minutes ago, kchip said:

havent logged in over a week this camp. Seriously rethinking reup

 

Why is that? 

This topic is just going over a brainstorming session and we have already stated that any changes would not happen till at least q1 if any.

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Capco
6 minutes ago, jwilly said:

I guess I'm just slow today...ADS?

Attention Deficit Syndrome? Automatic Death System?

Aim Down Sight.

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major0noob
33 minutes ago, jwilly said:

Automatic Death System?

for RPATS pls

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jokur
14 hours ago, xanthus said:

FWIW, I always maintained that the issue isn't moving when firing the LMG (specifically the MG34); it's firing while jogging.

There are three inf movement speeds (when on foot); walking (press t), jogging (default), sprint.

Firing the MG34 while jogging is pure fantasy garbage, plain and simple. There is NO video ANYWHERE of this happening (unless it's some idiot doing a stunt) because it did NOT happen.

My proposal (the same proposal I first posted on these forums ~10 years ago) is to make it so that when someone fires an LMG, they automatically switch to the walk speed. Very simple. In lieu of that, I would be fine with no movement during fire (because even though this isn't 100% perfectly realistic, it's still vastly more realistic than the way it is now...and it would be a good approximation of the sort of real hip-fire that actually happened in WWII anyway).

THIS!   

 

@jwilly Maybe there is a way to code in a dispersion debuff while the player is rotating and firing from the hip??

Edited by jokur

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minky

There are real and legitimate reasons that LMGs are not the preferred weapon for room clearing. Maybe we should ask ourselves what those reasons are and model those. 

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ZEBBEEE
1 hour ago, minky said:

There are real and legitimate reasons that LMGs are not the preferred weapon for room clearing. Maybe we should ask ourselves what those reasons are and model those. 

Barel Overheat effect and mechanical failures?

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minky
5 hours ago, Zebbeee said:

Barel Overheat effect and mechanical failures?

I’m pretty sure SMGs can suffer from both of those issues as well. 

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aismov
6 hours ago, minky said:

There are real and legitimate reasons that LMGs are not the preferred weapon for room clearing. Maybe we should ask ourselves what those reasons are and model those. 

Slow to turn and hard to run long distances. Both IMHO should be added. The question is whether it can be coded or whether all infantry irrespective of class have the same base model and basic physics modelling with just a different weapon added to them. My own suspicion is that very basic things like the rate of turning are hard-coded into the engine for all infantry since it is treated as one class, but I could be wrong.

Another option would be to make running-n-gunning with the LMG technically more challenging.

If anyone remember the old "read-aim-fire" system we have for I think 2-3 months back in 2001 when it was removed for the traditional FPS style knows what I mean. All infantry started with the weapon down position, to fire it, you had to first press one button to get it in the "ready" position (used to be Left Shift), then a second one for the "aim" position (Right Mouse), and then physically could you fire (Left Mouse). That is 3 buttons you help while stationary. When running it was nearly impossible since you were trying to hold/manipulate 4 keys/buttons at once. This could be added to the LMG only to make things a bit harder.

Just an idea S!

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Merlin51
8 minutes ago, minky said:

I’m pretty sure SMGs can suffer from both of those issues as well. 

Be kind of hard, the barrel overheat.
Combination of firing pistol load rounds, firing rate, and ammo capacity, and general use.

I supposed you could, if you could jack enough constant ammo into it and lock the trigger down
but i think you would need to really try to cook it, might be hard to reproduce under average combat conditions/use

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minky
1 hour ago, Merlin51 said:

Be kind of hard, the barrel overheat.
Combination of firing pistol load rounds, firing rate, and ammo capacity, and general use.

I supposed you could, if you could jack enough constant ammo into it and lock the trigger down
but i think you would need to really try to cook it, might be hard to reproduce under average combat conditions/use

Even modern MP5's can be overheated to the point where there are problems with ammo cooking off in the chamber.  It's not easy but it can be done.

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Merlin51
5 minutes ago, minky said:

Even modern MP5's can be overheated to the point where there are problems with ammo cooking off in the chamber.  It's not easy but it can be done.

You can cook an M16, but you kind of have to purposely try.
Probably be really hard to get the opportunity in real combat, or pack the ammo
Mind you that has a small rifle cartridge, so probably a bit more heat potential.

MP5 probably not as hard if you go flopping out C mags at 900 rpm

I imagine you could cook an old tommy gun, if you plopped a stack of drums on the bench
and weren't too fumbly about swapping them out.

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minky
43 minutes ago, Merlin51 said:

You can cook an M16, but you kind of have to purposely try.
Probably be really hard to get the opportunity in real combat, or pack the ammo
Mind you that has a small rifle cartridge, so probably a bit more heat potential.

MP5 probably not as hard if you go flopping out C mags at 900 rpm

I imagine you could cook an old tommy gun, if you plopped a stack of drums on the bench
and weren't too fumbly about swapping them out.

I had an M4 pretty hot this morning at the range.  I have never made one glow but I would bet it's possible.  I made an M60 glow bright red in the dark though.  That was pretty cool actually.

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aismov

Everything about an M60 is pretty cool.

Even an empty M60 sitting on the table is pretty cool.

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Tatonka

Seen a butter bar in basic pick up a hot m60 , he was going to shoot it from the hip , he grabbed the hot barrel with one hand, and it left a long white burn in the palm of his hand. :)  He wrapped it up and tried to look tough but he left soon after :) 

Edited by tatonka

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Merlin51

^^^
This is why no one ever listens to 2nd looeys

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genthc9

Leave it as is.

If you have a cap full of people there is only one way to clear it out fast and that's with the LMG.  Too many complainers, if you don't like it you should have ambushed the doors to cut down the LMG before entering. 

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