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delems

Bridges.

42 posts in this topic

Ok, two items:

First, bridges should not auto repair - just like AI.  Takes away from game play - now we may have great fights over bridges if one wants to repair - and other side doesn't want them to.

Second, 40 repair kits is far to easy and low of a number to rebuild a bridge.  No bridge was rebuilt in 5 min like we can in game - change that number to 100 repair kits. (cut rank given to 1 point)

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I guess one reason to auto repair might be because you can AO and blow up any bridge easily enough
but getting guys to a far out of the way location to repair it is kind of difficult.

Originally, it would have cost your side money to auto repair a bridge it owned (Money meaning RP)
RP spent on a bridge meant less RP for building resupply.

Having bridges with in 2 lines of front lines not auto repair could be kind of cool, but presently the bridge does not actually know
where it is in that respect.

At some point, i would love to go redo how bridges are seen and handled.

On the repair kits, i get you on the difficulty, i guess with present limited options, and amount of units that can actually repair them, you have to take
some happy medium to keep it a viable possibility.
maybe when we have some viable alternatives to a bridge, could up the cost of repair?

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Not to mention engineers are the only class that can repair. I've also seen an HE 111 vome thru and blow a bridge on one pass. 

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Doesn't matter.

If you want to support team play- more realistic play - and provide for battles over bridges; then we need to rethink them.

No way bridges should be repaired in 5 min like they can right now.

Also, you forget that 1.36 is here soon - so supply everywhere to rebuild bridges.

Besides, if one bomber can take out a bridge, all the more reason (and game play) for a fighter to be around to shoot him down.........

Or maybe an AA platoon near the bridge.

Bridges should mean something - they should not auto repair.  Let players make the game action - not 'system'.

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46 minutes ago, delems said:

If you want to support team play- more realistic play - and provide for battles over bridges; then we need to rethink them.

We do, I agree, but it is more than simply how many men does it take to screw in a bridge.
We need to design a mechanic where the game sees the bridges differently from a strat view, and they have more meaning and value than can I drive here or not.

49 minutes ago, delems said:

Also, you forget that 1.36 is here soon - so supply everywhere to rebuild bridges.

No.
Only two towns deep on the lines.

If I go way behind your lines, pre-popping all your bridges, you will be loath to get men there to put them back up
aside from pulling front line engineers and boarding them on transport planes and flying them all over.
That is not playing, that is doing janitorial work that no one will find fun in except the guy in the plane.

53 minutes ago, delems said:

Or maybe an AA platoon near the bridge.

No way to do that currently, the bridge is not a supply object, there for is not able to have any kind of spawnable assets as it sits.
Like I said, I would love to redo the entire bridge thing, but we can not start every project at once.
Each in it's own time.
 

55 minutes ago, delems said:

Let players make the game action - not 'system

Which is why you don't want to relegate them to janitorial tasks that are no fun.
It takes at least 10 engineers, or 10 ammo reloads to repair the bridge.
That is assuming someone is not opposing it, in which case they keep hitting it to negate the repair.
And there is little safety for the repair crew, they are easy pickings unless no one is opposing them.

Bridges have remained down for hours in a hot zone regardless of efforts to repair this.
You know this as you were one trying to help repair it on at least one occasion.

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21 hours ago, Merlin51 said:

We need to design a mechanic where the game sees the bridges differently from a strat view, and they have more meaning and value than can I drive here or not.

WWII land fighting was about who held bridges, tunnels, railroad yards, harbors and other transportation assets, and factories, mills, mines, hydro dams and other production assets. Cities and towns were of value only to the extent they contained or facilitated transportation or production assets. The game would gain strategic realism if the capture concept was re-designed along those lines.

Edited by jwilly
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With the 1.36

I'd love to see military grade buildings like bunkers and trenches by, if not all, at least the most important crossroads and bridges.

with a small garrison even IAS and add them to the strategic net of towns. So you need to own them to keep moving brigades.

We could have nice battles outside the typical town environment.

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I think these points are all nice, although I do not see them being in the first version of 1.36. This is something to bring up in roadmap discussion. 

Some of the plans we have talked about in the past is AO based on population in an area, and even control of blocks of land based on a mechanic yet to be developped but this is far in the future. I think the first step is to see how 1.36 plays out, and adjust based on observation there.

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I see your idea but lets make it a bit different.  2 Guard Shack/Bunkers 1 on each side that you have to cap both to use the bridge for anything other than inf.  AI with either MG or ATG set on each side or one of each.  Only the guard/bunker that is next to town has INF only spawn having only Rifle, Smg and Eng to protect or rebuild it.  I would suggest that this option be only at Major Bridges near towns.  If you do this to ever bridge in the game it would way to difficult to even attack 1/10 of the map. If you applied to all bridges then we would need to have bridging equipment to ford at will but thats another idea.  Not sure of the best about of Eng to use to Rebuild or Take down, but maybe only have 75% of them at the spawn point so you have to bring up more.

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Not to derail anyones cool ideas, but baby steps...

1st, bridges have to become a thing.
Presently, they are nothing but a physical object that is able to take damage.
The only reason the server cares about them is that they take damage, and the server is the master damage counter.
Think of the bridges as just a house with a nametag

So just to give a rough idea, starting with the basics...

Bridge must become a real supply/strat level object, they have to become a link in the supply route
Town A   BRIDGE    Town B / Town C for example

The bridge has to become like a secondary means of connecting the linked depots (And possibly the rail facilities also, but basics 1st)
So Depot link (and i am making up psedo code) has a new data line
Has Bridge  [Bridge Name]

So if bridge is broken, supply link is broken, even if the depots remained untouched.

This is just a made up example, a very simple one at that, but first the bridge must learn to serve its most basic of function.
Not glamorous or anything, but once the bridge can begin serving that function, then you can add icing. :) 

So big 1st question is how should it function in its most basic of purpose?

 

Edited by Merlin51
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Then it needs to be tied to the supply link.  I see it the same way Rail/Rail Stations can be done.  If a link is lost then Depots/Towns linked would lose out on supply.  That is what all the bombing was for to stop movement of troops and supplies in real life war is for.  Just like RDP one leads to the other.  It would have to be limited to just the first 2 towns on the front. Other wise it would be Opel/Laffy Deep Bridge Rail mission all over the map and draw to many players away from the front to babysit. Needs to be alot more brain storming on this.

Edited by porsche

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34 minutes ago, porsche said:

Other wise it would be Opel/Laffy Deep Bridge Rail mission all over the map and draw to many players away from the front to babysit.

This is one reason that for bridges i do not advocate removing their ability to auto repair over a fair time period.
If i go 30 towns deep and wack a bridge, the effect is going to be Meh, because there are mostly likely plenty of alternate supply links to where i just killed the bridge at.
So there is little reason to force players to go play janitor in an area they are far away from playing in.
It wont matter if the bridge is out for 3 or 4 hours or something and left to repair itself.

When the action area gets to where the bridge starts coming into immediate importance, then they can worry that 3 or 4 hours is too long and head out to manually fix it.

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It would be ideal that a blown bridge close to a town would affect the speed of pool recovery and brigade movement but with Merlin's explanation that is not feasible now.

But With the 1.36 we may see again resupply and overstock done by players, so destroying a bridge would become strategic again to avoid the opponent doing this manual resupply.

So, is there now a limit with the number of bridges that can be targeted (AO) at the same time? If so, maybe we could increase it. 

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Bridges should not auto repair, plain and simple - is a player game, not auto AI game.

Edited by delems

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Bridges :

  • No AO or DO, You can blow or repair at will.
  • No auto repair.
  • Make it 80 charges/repair kits to accomplish mission.

I know what you are going to say about POINTS. At present it takes one charge to get 10 points.

Now think about that. To blow a bridge and get max points. You have to put one charge on, then DESPAWN and come back. Rinse and repeat, times 79 times.

So here is what transpires with no spawn delays.

  1. DRIVE to the bridge. Lets say 10 minutes on average, but could be more in most cases.
  2. SET a FMS near as possible to the bridge, but you cant make the bridge the target, due to mechanics. 1 1/2 minutes.
  3. DESPAWN the truck. 10 seconds
  4. SPAWN the ENGINEER. 10-15 seconds, if there is no spawn delay.
  5. RUN to the bridge and set ONE CHARGE/REPAIR. 15-25 seconds
  6. RUN to the FMS and DESPAWN. 30 seconds ish.
  7. RESPAWN, RINSE AND REPEAT THE PROCESS.

So, just one charge cost you 13 minutes for 10 points

All subsequent charges/repair about 3 minutes X 79 = almost 3 HOURS to get 790 points

So all told you get 800 points at about 3.25 hours.

As you can see that is a LOT of time to invest on getting points, and the higher in rank you go, the points don't give you a lot. Yes if you are a E1 it gets you a rank plus.

But if you are an E6, it just makes a small dent.

IMDED (SPD)

Oscar alpha oscar

 

 

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2 hours ago, delems said:

Bridges should not auto repair, plain and simple - is a player game, not auto AI game.

And players do not really want to load engineers up in a truck and drive 30 towns to the rear, to go fix a bridge that isn't even effecting the play area yet.

You going to drive guys from Brussels to berlin to fix the bridges?

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Why would I load up to repair a bridge 30 towns to the rear?  It means nothing.

The only bridges that might mean anything are the ones on the front line.

When we get pushed 30 towns back, then I'll worry about that downed bridge.

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5 hours ago, Merlin51 said:

And players do not really want to load engineers up in a truck and drive 30 towns to the rear

Surely the game is intended to be a simulation of military unit operations with minor additions for strategic factories--not the entire national economies of Germany, Britain and France, including civilian administered areas...?

Auto-repair is definitely the right answer for damage in civilian administered areas.

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8 hours ago, delems said:

When we get pushed 30 towns back, then I'll worry about that downed bridge.

May be too late when you step back into a hole.

This is why armies have rear eschelon corps and civilian groups etc.
Those are not fun to play in a combat game, so you let the game manage them.

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On 12/15/2018 at 2:31 PM, Merlin51 said:

This is one reason that for bridges i do not advocate removing their ability to auto repair over a fair time period.
If i go 30 towns deep and wack a bridge, the effect is going to be Meh, because there are mostly likely plenty of alternate supply links to where i just killed the bridge at.
So there is little reason to force players to go play janitor in an area they are far away from playing in.
It wont matter if the bridge is out for 3 or 4 hours or something and left to repair itself.

When the action area gets to where the bridge starts coming into immediate importance, then they can worry that 3 or 4 hours is too long and head out to manually fix it.

I agree we need to be careful about create systems which are the WWIIOL-equivalent of RPG grinding/mining. Another thing to take into account is that in this game we can all go on suicide missions if the target is high value enough. And if it is worthwhile there will be dozens of players making 1-way trips to take out bridges. And just like in real life, kamikaze attacks are very difficult to defend against or intercept.

Unlike in real life, in WWIIOL we effectively have infinite supply, and the digital kamikaze pilots get better and better every run they do, unlike their one-shot Japanese counterparts.

I would be very careful of a system where we create this mechanic.

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Still say remove auto bridge repair.  Also, make bridges destroyable or rebuildable at any time - like AI is.

Or, we need like 10 more bridge AOs - 4 is not enough to even cover the one town of Essen; much less a front of 20 towns.

Bridge AOs are a real pain for HC imo, way to few.  Change the system or give way more of them.

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Shall I again remind everyone what a pain bridge AOs are?
 

First, you have to click on bridges all over the map and type .own just to see the status.

Then you have to spam comms to build or destroy the bridge.

Then you have to wait 10 min for a bridge AO to clear.

Then wait 5 more min to set a bridge AO.

Then repeat the above.... ALL why supposedly trying to watch the map (40 flags, supply levels, move timers...  AOs,  enemy flag moves, and SUPPOSEDLY trying to work with your squad to build it.....)

Edited by delems

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I agree bridge AOs should be removed. Let them be bombed at will and repaired when need be. I would still keep autorepair though. A 12 hour timer I think is good enough but 24 hours I think is good as well.

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On ‎13‎/‎12‎/‎2018 at 5:24 AM, delems said:

Doesn't matter.

If you want to support team play- more realistic play - and provide for battles over bridges; then we need to rethink them.

No way bridges should be repaired in 5 min like they can right now.

Also, you forget that 1.36 is here soon - so supply everywhere to rebuild bridges.

Besides, if one bomber can take out a bridge, all the more reason (and game play) for a fighter to be around to shoot him down.........

Or maybe an AA platoon near the bridge.

Bridges should mean something - they should not auto repair.  Let players make the game action - not 'system'.

You would be looking at 6 months minimum to rebuild a stone bridge, with full access to materials and no combat - is that the realism you seek?

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