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Poll of the day: blitzkrieg vs battle of the Bulge for our theater?

Poll of the day   39 members have voted

  1. 1. Which period of the war would you prefer to start a campaign in?

    • Blitzkrieg (pre-1940 equipment)
      25
    • Battle of the Bulge (pre-1944 equipment)
      9
    • No preference
      5

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19 posts in this topic

Some discussions are currently going in the forums regarding Tiers and how equipment should be provided considering a <fun vs realism> balance. 

I order to help with the analysis, we should ask ourselves what period would best fit our theater? 1940 or 1944?

Currently each campaign start in 1940 then progresses Tier by Tier towards 1945 (if the campaign is long enough as it requires almost 2 months to get there)

To simulate the battle of the Bulge, a campaign should start in 1944 with almost all the equipment from all nations available. 

Your answer may also say that you want more equipment modeled from the first period, or from the later one.

Please brainstorm with me (and let's keep it constructive)

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I probably wouldn't play WWIIOL if the game only took place beyond 1943.  

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I enjoy our progression of equipment through the tiers that we currently have and the Change in tactics etc that come with those changes. As a Brit I enjoying used the brtish and French equipment rather that the ubiquitous US equipment that a post 1943 game  would entail. 

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The Battle of the Bugle was a short-lived wrestling match between two soldiers over one horn. They both really wanted to sound reveille, and in the end, the bugle was damaged but it still made enough noise to wake up the entire platoon.

Sorry, I couldn't help myself. ;)

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Should be two separate games.

Historically, if the Germans had been stalemated in France and Belgium akin to WWI, particularly at the aircraft and tank loss rates that we see in game, they'd have run out of raw materials and replacement-armaments production capacity and raw materials no later than mid 1941. Plus, seeing them losing, history tells us that Stalin probably would have attacked from the east. Not that Stalin's 1941 army was very effective...as the Russians found out...but the Germans still would have had to defend with enough troops to cover the front, and essentially their entire 1940 army was engaged in the west.

The expansion that the German armed forces conducted in late 1940-early 1941 was enabled by the rapid conclusion and very low personnel losses of the France/Belgium fighting, which allowed them to extract one or even two experienced-mid-level-officer/non-com cadres from each existing division, and build a new division around each such cadre. If the Germans were still bogged down in France/Belgium, with ongoing significant losses, that expansion could not have occurred. And, without the expansion and with essentially the entire army committed in France/Belgium, none of the parallel and subsequent campaigns could have happened as they did historically. No Balkans/Greece, so the Italians are stuck in Albania and Britain is in Greece. No Crete. No reinforcement of the Italians in North Africa using divisions from the army expansion, so the Italians are pushed back to Tunisia with poor supply lines, the British hold Libya with poor supply lines, and the front is stalemated. And, no German invasion of Russia...but the Russians may attack in 1941. 

So, two games:

Blitzkrieg, 1940-41, Western Europe. T0 and T1 weapons. Either the Germans win, or they lose. The history outlined above is the backstory.

Western Europe 1944-45. This assumes historical actions before this game's start, i.e. the Germans are engaged in the east, in Italy and in south France, and they were defeated in North Africa. The basic start line would be as close to Normandy as possible, acknowledging that this game isn't going to have beach-landing objects/weapons/mechanics any time soon. Alternate game versions could be a Pas de Calais landing in 1944 (historically considered, and we tried to convince the Germans we were headed there), or a Normandy landing in 1943 (historically we decided we weren't ready).

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33 minutes ago, jwilly said:

Should be two separate games.

Historically, if the Germans had been stalemated in France and Belgium akin to WWI, particularly at the aircraft and tank loss rates that we see in game, they'd have run out of raw materials and replacement-armaments production capacity and raw materials no later than mid 1941. Plus, seeing them losing, history tells us that Stalin probably would have attacked from the east. Not that Stalin's 1941 army was very effective...as the Russians found out...but the Germans still would have had to defend with enough troops to cover the front, and essentially their entire 1940 army was engaged in the west.

The expansion that the German armed forces conducted in late 1940-early 1941 was enabled by the rapid conclusion and very low personnel losses of the France/Belgium fighting, which allowed them to extract one or even two experienced-mid-level-officer/non-com cadres from each existing division, and build a new division around each such cadre. If the Germans were still bogged down in France/Belgium, with ongoing significant losses, that expansion could not have occurred. And, without the expansion and with essentially the entire army committed in France/Belgium, none of the parallel and subsequent campaigns could have happened as they did historically. No Balkans/Greece, so the Italians are stuck in Albania and Britain is in Greece. No Crete. No reinforcement of the Italians in North Africa using divisions from the army expansion, so the Italians are pushed back to Tunisia with poor supply lines, the British hold Libya with poor supply lines, and the front is stalemated. And, no German invasion of Russia...but the Russians may attack in 1941. 

So, two games:

Blitzkrieg, 1940-41, Western Europe. T0 and T1 weapons. Either the Germans win, or they lose. The history outlined above is the backstory.

Western Europe 1944-45. This assumes historical actions before this game's start, i.e. the Germans are engaged in the east, in Italy and in south France, and they were defeated in North Africa. The basic start line would be as close to Normandy as possible, acknowledging that this game isn't going to have beach-landing objects/weapons/mechanics any time soon. Alternate game versions could be a Pas de Calais landing in 1944 (historically considered, and we tried to convince the Germans we were headed there), or a Normandy landing in 1943 (historically we decided we weren't ready).

Additionally, no western French ports used for U-Boats, causing the battle of the atlantic to turn towards the Allies in quicker fashion.

 

France not falling quickly was Germany's worst nightmare (well, before Stalingrad), and could very well have resulted in the ousting of Hitler via military coup, as early as late '41, but certainly by late '42,  (I am of the camp who believes Stalin would have attacked in early 1942 had the germans stayed occupied in the west).

 

S!

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Bloody well leave it alone.
If i wanted to play a game that only had 1944, or just had everything in one lump, steam has a never ending supply of disposable garbage

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My vote would be to meet in the middle and have the best of both worlds. Grand Campaigns like we have now which go from Tier 0 to Tier 5 (1940 - 1945) which after there is a victor would be followed by a short intermission, which would then be followed by a time limited (5-7 days) mini-campaign with set victory conditions placed at some point in history (i.e. Operation Market Garden where you begin with Tier 4 weapons). After the mini-campaign is over you would do a short intermission and then follow with another Grand Campaign.

This would have the benefit of allowing CRS to experiment with late-tier equipment balance or small tweaks to capture mechanics, build times, etc. since the mini campaigns are only for a week or less.

Interesting scenarios I could envision for the mini-campaigns:

TIER 0:

Defense of Paris

Invasion of England

TIER 1:

Operation Compass

Invasion of Crete

TIER 2:

Seige if Tobruk

Battle if El-Alamein

TIER 3:

Kasserine Pass

Invasion of Sicily

Monte Cassino

TIER 4:

Normandy Invasion (immediate post landing push on Caen)

Market Garden

Battle of the Bulge

Battle of Hurtgen Forest 

TIER 5:

Operation Lumberjack

Fall of Berlin

 

Ypu could then add any number of hypothetical what if scenarios. Such as a Tier 1 where France doesn't fall and Allies are pushing across the Rhine. A Tier 0 where the Acis land inEngland and push to capture London before the Anericans who are now forced to enter the war early can rush in an army to help the British.

 

EDIT: The above wouldn't take the place of special events, rather it would be for scenarios that take more time than a few hours that special events take. Or scenarios that are more combined arms in nature vs. special events that are more geared to one branch (i.e. Channel Dash, Defense of the Reich, DamBusters, Pearl Harbor).

Grand Campaign: Weeks/Months

Mini Campaign: <7 Days

Special Event: Hours

 

The major benefit of the mini campaign is that it gives players the chance to start with 1944 equipment, or similarly have a short campaign only with Tier 0 tanks when we are all fed up with Petshings, King Tigers and IS-2s fighting it out.

It also gives CRS the chance to experimenting with new gameplay mechanics on the live server. So we could for example see what would happen with shorter capture timers, or any number of tweaks.

Edited by aismov
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From Blitzkrieg to Berlin/London campaign FTW!

The Bulge could be a nice intermisión special event.

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I had a plan for a May 1940 special event, the goal would be to do the first two weeks of the blitzkrieg using close to real numbers in the leading armored breakthrough formations, but also real numbers in terms of replacements.

 

Think 300 tanks per division, most weenie tanks, and three day ticket resupply.

 

French units would be fuel isolated by a bunch of towns already turned Axis around them, simulating both Axis advance speed and the horrible French WWI based logistical velocity.  A lot of Allied effort and AOs would simply be about extracting units from precarious overruns and regaining mobility.

 

But the Axis side would be on a timetable, fail to meet the real world achievement and the Allies win.

 

Unfortunately with the switch to town supply, this is going to be no longer possible as you would need at least as many divisions now to populate the scenario.

 

Anyway, the regular campaign as is and mini-campaign to scratch itches re: scenarios, 1944 etc. is the way to go.

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3 hours ago, Kilemall said:

I had a plan for a May 1940 special event, the goal would be to do the first two weeks of the blitzkrieg using close to real numbers in the leading armored breakthrough formations, but also real numbers in terms of replacements.

 

Think 300 tanks per division, most weenie tanks, and three day ticket resupply.

 

French units would be fuel isolated by a bunch of towns already turned Axis around them, simulating both Axis advance speed and the horrible French WWI based logistical velocity.  A lot of Allied effort and AOs would simply be about extracting units from precarious overruns and regaining mobility.

 

But the Axis side would be on a timetable, fail to meet the real world achievement and the Allies win.

 

Unfortunately with the switch to town supply, this is going to be no longer possible as you would need at least as many divisions now to populate the scenario.

 

Anyway, the regular campaign as is and mini-campaign to scratch itches re: scenarios, 1944 etc. is the way to go.

I’ve always wanted to see a realistic blitzkrieg  scenario as well, with limited resupply and the best order of battle that we could manage. Don’t think I ever will but for a special event campaign(s) it would be amazing to see. 

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9 minutes ago, raptor34 said:

I’ve always wanted to see a realistic blitzkrieg  scenario as well, with limited resupply and the best order of battle that we could manage. Don’t think I ever will but for a special event campaign(s) it would be amazing to see. 

Not hard to do, though it may feel kind of funny until the lesser T0 vehicles are modeled.
Need PZI's and FT17's and the other bunch of french tanks that are about the equivalent of a PZI, the light AMC and AMR tanks
Brits only missing a few 2pdr soup can tanks of the earlier A series.

But we could probably make due if we could maybe load the french a bunch of vickers as stand ins?
and give axis PZIIc's and extra 232's as a fill in for PZI's?
PZIII PZIV STUG S35 B1bis Matilda and A13's would be pretty limited in numbers, would definitely be an infantry + weenie tank + towed gun fest
Sounds fun actually


For a scenario like i think you are talking, set garrison TOE to 0 and run it all special flags with absolute historic based TOE (at least as close as we can do in game)
all factories locked at 0 output, so no one to fill resupply tickets.

I'd actually like to build up and save a number of scenarios like that to run in lieu of plain old intermissions

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Bump this thread - CM team Looking for next intermission to have a special event.  If your interested in a scenario - let's start putting it together.  @Ohm has to set the scenario up so let's not make it too complicated...  

Anyone want to take the lead on this ?

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the Map starts at roughly the May 1940 frontline... why would we start with post-1943 equipment (as a routine thing) ? 

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Get more tier0 stuff  to tier 3 stuff in game that a lot of games don't have and the early tiers will be even better then now , so much more early war equipment that is missing. 

If this game always starts late tiers I might lose interest fairly fast . I can get that anywhere. 

That's my opinion.

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What ever alternative that make a through clean up of the FPS game, like ammo effect VS tanks, trucks and planes happen faster.

After that, I prefer pre 1940.

Edited by Hardlead

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How about split the map North / South instead of East / West? That would give opportunity to fight in a bunch of towns we rarely see. Might need to get creative to protect the factories.

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On 3/10/2019 at 5:53 PM, B2K said:

the Map starts at roughly the May 1940 frontline... why would we start with post-1943 equipment (as a routine thing) ? 

"Why" of course is a marketing question. The usual answer relates to customers regarding the existing game as stale after they've played it up to 150+ times. A reasonable follow-up marketing question is whether Bulge would be the best alternate battle to model, or something else would be better. A necessary criterion for that is how much terrain modeling, weapon/vehicle modeling and/or game mechanics development would be required to make the new game meet CRS's marketing standard.

"How" is more straightforward, though the answer isn't favorable to the Bulge idea. The existing map includes all of the area usually thought of in relation to the Battle of the Bulge, plus all of the surrounding areas that were relevant to supply, reinforcements and German victory-goals.  But, as a part of the 2:1 horizontal compression and simplification of the existing terrain, all of the small towns are missing along with all of the small but mobility-critical rivers and particularly all of the mobility-critical secondary roads and farm lanes. The existing terrain also is far too flat...the critical eastern and northern parts of the real Bulge area have a lot of steep valleys with a winding, fast-moving, near-freezing river and a narrow winding road at the bottom, and heavily forested hillsides. There are few open areas with long sightlines anywhere in the Bulge area until you get quite far west.

The existing game system has no mechanics to realistically limit tracked vehicle movement offroad, and essentially prevent wheeled vehicle movement offroad. It also doesn't have realistic systems for snow, fog, night, bridging, mines, or artillery. All of those would be critical.

The existing game system skips right past realistic mobility limitations, i.e. the road length of a division, the tonnage/day limit of different road types before they become mud pits or bottomless-potholed, and how trucks get back to supply depots when you have only one dirt/gravel road, it's 1 to 1.5 military vehicles wide with no usable shoulders, and it already contains a division that's stalled due to lack of supplies up front. That problem--more so than the fight put up by the American forces--determined the outcome of the battle.

And of course the existing game's model set is missing a bunch of relevant 1944 weapons on both sides, the absence of which would hurt the market appeal of the battle-game.

Edited by jwilly

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On 3/10/2019 at 4:36 PM, TMAN said:

Bump this thread - CM team Looking for next intermission to have a special event.  If your interested in a scenario - let's start putting it together.  @Ohm has to set the scenario up so let's not make it too complicated...  

Anyone want to take the lead on this ?

I would be interested in speccing the 'real blitzkrieg' special campaign/scenario, but it doesn't meet the requirements of 'not complicated'.

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