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delems

Need to fix PPOs.

62 posts in this topic

You don't want longer.
The bigger a PPO is, the more difficult it is to place in a confined or uneven area.
Keeps wanting to go red, Oh sorry ground is uneven, or sorry tree too close, etc.

I can agree with wanting them to go a bit closer, not sure though how much play the code would give.

Don't forget, barbed wire, you can shoot through.
Good for making LMG trap

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We would be able to stop them being placed within X distance of a capture building but that requires coder time and we're flat out on other things at the moment.

Edited by Nick

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just let em clip, and let inf place satchels on the middle bar

 

i mean, you guys are preemptively "fixing" problems that never happened.

Edited by major0noob

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Where do you stop the clipping then .. Bunkers clipping fms's , barbed wire clipping inside buildings or fms's stopping spawning in or getting tangled with atgs ,etc ,etc, etc. as they try to spawn . 

Needs to be done with care and caution or it will make a big mess even if the programming would allow it.(colliders etc)

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4 hours ago, major0noob said:

i mean, you guys are preemptively "fixing" problems that never happened.

Yes, it's called forward thinking.

We aren't going to "just let them clip"

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*** We aren't going to "just let them clip"

Well that is sad; I want barbwire in blds, sandbags at doors and on roofs.

How come we can't place stuff next to each other - LET IT CLIP.......   one HE can remove it - no biggie. (and every rifle has HE)

To make sure it not over used, double the creation time of PPOs - there will be fewer, but they will be actually effective - instead of a waste of time as now.

Edited by delems
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Think of it like this... I clip in a ton of PPOs in a 360 degree arc around some critical part of the battlefield. Then I plop a FMS in the middle. Nobody can get in, and nobody can get out. Except I have that magical FMS set up so I don't have to worry about clipping PPOs and I have a massive number of men that can spawn into a nigh-impenetrable location.

I'm all for making nigh-impregnable fortresses. But by that token you also have to remove mobile spawning so your own reinforcements have just as hard of a time getting as the enemy.

Clipping is a recipe for disaster. Just think of the massive number of complaints that overtake the forums when there is a bugged CP (or back when you would have bugged/unreachable capture tables). You would have thought based on the hysteria of the chorus that some backwaters town in Belgium was suddenly the linchpin in some grand strategy that caused side A or B to win/lose the campaign. Get ready for that 100-fold if you allow PPOs to be clipped wherever players want to put them.

One basic tenet of game design is predictable unpredictability. I can predict that I can capture the CP if I can get into the building. I can predict that there may or may not be defenders there (the unpredictable predictably part). But I can't predict that there will be no way for me to physically capture the facility because somebody clipped a PPO with the sole purpose of exploiting the capture mechanic and preventing access... that would be unpredictable unpredictability. In more informal circles this is also what we call a clusterf*ck. And it is poor game design.

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4 hours ago, Merlin51 said:

Yes, it's called forward thinking.

We aren't going to "just let them clip"

imaginary problems...

here in the game: PPO's function more as decorations.

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*** Nobody can get in, and nobody can get out.

See, this is how I know you don't put up many PPOs around a MS.

Because I've tried, and guess what... the VERY first bomb that lands anywhere near the MS destroys EVERY PPO for like 100m.

Hours of work is gone when the 1st (of EIGHT, I remind you), bomb of an allied bomber drops by at 100' over your MS.

Guess what, EVERYTHING is gone - and the bomber still has 7 more bombs.

Don't give me you can create some impenetrable fortress, you can't.

ONE bomb and it is all gone, couple rifleman and it is all gone.

(And don't even start on pull out a Flak 30 and try to shoot down the bomber...... YOU do it and show me)

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56 minutes ago, delems said:

See, this is how I know you don't put up many PPOs around a MS.

Because I've tried, and guess what... the VERY first bomb that lands anywhere near the MS destroys EVERY PPO for like 100m.

Except if no bomb falls. Or you are barbed wire penned in the depot window, or barracks or what ever place

MERLIN51: Hey delems, i'm boxing in this allied Place, bring machine guns to XX:XX:xx YY:YY:yy
DELEMS OK!

Then i build my nice little all clipped together ring 5 objects thick, drop the FMS
and presto, all the fish are trapped in the barrel, can't even try to run away, let alone try to remove the barrel.
And you just sit back and kill fish.

Call a GM?
It's already too late, it's after the fact, you can't make it right
You can't fix that you were stupid enough to allow it in the 1st place and could not take the 5 minutes to think "How could this be griefed badly, what small think could i do to prevent that"

And FWIW, i have put many PPO's around an FMS.
I have not had very many Aircraft come to visit them, even less since they can no longer take them down by straffing.

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14 hours ago, delems said:

*** Nobody can get in, and nobody can get out.

See, this is how I know you don't put up many PPOs around a MS.

Because I've tried, and guess what... the VERY first bomb that lands anywhere near the MS destroys EVERY PPO for like 100m.

Hours of work is gone when the 1st (of EIGHT, I remind you), bomb of an allied bomber drops by at 100' over your MS.

Guess what, EVERYTHING is gone - and the bomber still has 7 more bombs.

Don't give me you can create some impenetrable fortress, you can't.

ONE bomb and it is all gone, couple rifleman and it is all gone.

(And don't even start on pull out a Flak 30 and try to shoot down the bomber...... YOU do it and show me)

i just ignore em... they've only stopped me form camping a FMS to hell once, i see them around our camped FMS's all the time.

 

on the barbed wire: they're suppose to trap/deny inf, that's the whole point... inf already have a satchel to take them out too

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I don't disagree with allowing PPOs to be placed closer together, especially the barbed wire which even with the long version requires an elaborate zigzag to make work.

Just we need to be careful of the attitude of "just put it in and let us figure it out." Every player is going to exploit the mechanic to the best of their ability. Just gotta be careful in how they are designed, where they can clip, etc.

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barbed wire is supposto be exploited

if they block a CP, they're fortifications and need to be demolished by charges/HE tanks/CAS

 

we already have the tools necessary to combat the exploit, the tools are underutilized as well

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1 hour ago, major0noob said:

barbed wire is supposto be exploited

if they block a CP, they're fortifications and need to be demolished by charges/HE tanks/CAS

 

we already have the tools necessary to combat the exploit, the tools are underutilized as well

I don't think anyone has a problem with barbed wire in front of a CP. The issue is if you allow it to clip then ppl will figure out ways to turn the inside of the building as well into a rats best of barbed wire.

Again it's a question if carefully balancing the intended role of PPOs with the ways that ppl will try to hand the system to their maximum advantage.

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clipping aside, the red zones are large enough for EI to get through.

can't fortify alleys or buildings with them, no tactical use for them in a wide open field; it'll take an hour to build a line, and even if they fortify FMS's for a hour: the defender doesn't need to attack FMS's, just cut em

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Is there a way to allow placement of PPOs directly against one another (the barbed wire wall) but disallow placement inside a building to avoid the issues being discussed? I am on the side that thinks that in order for PPOs to be truly useful they should be able to fully restrict movement, that is the whole point of area denial engineering. It also gives a role for engineers to bring down enemy fortifications (and assault guns and bombers). I do not think over building of PPOs is remotely going to be a problem when there are so many ways to remove them as well. 

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The straight wall sand bags need to be able to stack one on another. Or have a double high sandbag wall.

And the spawn in point on the FMS is to far away from the FMS entrance.

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2 hours ago, imded said:

The straight wall sand bags need to be able to stack one on another. Or have a double high sandbag wall.

that's a really cool idea man

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2 hours ago, imded said:

The straight wall sand bags need to be able to stack one on another. Or have a double high sandbag wall.

And the spawn in point on the FMS is to far away from the FMS entrance.

We are looking at a double high stack.

The fms spawn was moved a but to avoid the AA and atg from clipping and flipping. We also hope this will promote fortifying the fms

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3 hours ago, BLKHWK8 said:

We are looking at a double high stack.

The fms spawn was moved a but to avoid the AA and atg from clipping and flipping. We also hope this will promote fortifying the fms

Fortifying the FMS, and/or fortifying the AB area, needs a little help.  1 bomb is taking out way too much fortification material in the ABs, and presumably will do similarly to a fortified FMS.

 

I realize the easy solution is to have CAP over FMS and AB areas, but that is not always available these days.

 

Oh, and to the bastage german pilot who kept coming back every 5 minutes or so to blow up all the stuff me and the other engineers were building, I S! you, (and dislike you intensely).

 

S!

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I had suggested the stacking sandbags some time ago..

They may need to be tweaked with 90* ends..

Sand bags need to take more damage...

And the new PPOs need to clip together more...

Lets see how it works, if it needs fiddled we can deal with it then...

Cheers Monty

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I think the main problem with the ppos is that they were designed as simple one piece objects with the associated  collider.  The real need is a system that has connection points on each end so we can "connect the dots"

Of course this would need dev resources that are spread too thin as it is. 

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We are looking at the connection piece of the PPOs to other PPOs, we wont allow the complete flush to a building as we feel that could get abused. 

 

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2 hours ago, BLKHWK8 said:

We are looking at the connection piece of the PPOs to other PPOs, we wont allow the complete flush to a building as we feel that could get abused.

eh, they'd be more fun but whatever.

what about their huge red zones? the wire is pretty pointless when EI only have to move 3 feet to the left

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how about letting only 1 end be flush, so objects/buldings can form the base of a fortified position, and the wire can use the last end constantally while allowing an opening at the end of the fortification

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