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malvoc

cap timers

45 posts in this topic

Cap timers are way out of whack have reported it several times but no one is doing anything about it at 6 sec spawn delay axis are capping flags in 1 min this is no exaggeration allies are capping in 5 min please review and see for your self if you don't believe me ask the whole allied side they will tell you even the axis players that are playing allied have noticed this....

 

Malvoc out.....

Edited by malvoc

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Boy I'd really like to know what SD is calced on vs. cap timers.  If they have different calcs, even different time ranges like one is immediate situation vs. another averaged over 10-30m, you WILL have out of whack results.

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I so missed these kind of threads. Keep them coming!!11

Cap timers are always too slow. Bring back tables and 1 min cap timers.

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Agree, 4 min cap timers are ludicrous.

Max should be 2 min.  Keep the sliding scale, much as it is severely off, but cut the base capture time.

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I think 2 min max would also be a better option, though I would like to require 2+ players in the cap zone in order to capture. 

Edited by raptor34

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I dream of a day when the contested-to-ABs-hot 10 minute timer is finally seen as the timer to really reflect population imbalance 

 

until then, I’ll just sip my tea 

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18 minutes ago, Silky said:

I dream of a day when the contested-to-ABs-hot 10 minute timer is finally seen as the timer to really reflect population imbalance 

I like this.

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Cap timers need tweaking not complete nerf.

 

I would give the underpop side a speeded up "CAPs hot timer", say 5 mins after the AO is placed the CPs can be capped, and then make the  ABs hot also 5 mins after town contested. This will force the OP side to defend a bit more.

Making the OP side wait longer for the ABs to be hot will just result in more guys sitting around doing nothing and wondering what game to go and play where there is more action and less sitting around waiting. At the present rate of seemingly 6:1 (6 mins to cap OP to 1 min UP) we would be waiting for an hour for a contested AB to be hot.

 

S! Ian

Edited by ian77

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Axis had to put up with the long cap timers for multiple maps now. We complained but allied said tough.

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35 minutes ago, Rws said:

Axis had to put up with the long cap timers for multiple maps now. We complained but allied said tough.

I believe that most of the voices here have been in support of lower cap timers. I’m dedicated Allied and I’ve agreed that cap timers should be limited. The OP side should not be unduly penalized for just having more players online. As I said before, I think that requiring more players in order to cap should reduce ninja capping and force a level of teamwork. Sometime to think about at least. 

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Why reducing ninja capping? It has already been reduced so many times. New generation along with many vets including me wants rapid action, give it back to us.

Edited by matamor

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I disagree. Ninja capping was and is the worst type of gameplay. There is nothing more awful than someone slipping through the back door due to the limitations set by the game itself. We should be promoting solid battles and not stealth mode. I however agree that capture timers should be looked at and the underpop side should have shorter capture timers compared to the overpop. Penalizing players with excessively long capture timers will decrease overall fun, but to some (reasonable) degree it is necessary. However, the most important thing to do is not just treat capture timers in isolation as they feed into other game mechanics.

For example one the reasons that capture timers are so long to begin with is because of how the FMS is set up. You can't go back to the old days of quick cap tables AND have FMS otherwise towns would be impossible to defend against. It works on a spectrum, you allow close mobile spawning to the action which means you need to have long capture timers, or you allow FB-spawning only in which case you can go back to insta-capture tables. But you can't mix FB-spawning only and long capture timers or FMS spawning with insta-cap tables; both are a recipe for disaster.

Fundamentally the question to ask from a game design perspective is what is the point of the timer in the first place? It is really to equalize the time it takes to attack an objective compared to the time it takes to defend an objective. That system need to take into account 1) spawn delay 2) time to travel from spawn point to target 3) time to capture target and 4) cooldown timer to recapture target 5) manpower imbalances making either attacking or defending difficult. Thats why if you are overpop your goal to prevent town/CP rolls, so you need to lengthen the timer in order to give the defender a chance to kill the overpop side that may have a CP stacked with troops.

And lets not forget that 1.36 will chance the dynamic completely as well since losing a single town will not be the utter disaster it can be now if the HC hasn't set fallback orders correctly, or if there is no HC on to respond to an enemy breakout.

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The capture timers are working correctly. Please remember the following:

Spawn Delay and Capture Timers are set by those logged into the game world not just logged into a persona and sitting at the map. Side Lock is based on those loged into the persona (ingame world and map screen)

Next the Spawn Delay was capped at 10 seconds based on feed back from the community, as when we removed them eachside wanted a tool to measure strength of OP and UP. So even though the Spawn Delay was 8 seconds that means it was similar to that of a 24 second Spawn delay in prior system (80% of the 30 sec Max as 8 seconds is 80% of the Cap of 10).

This means in the scenario above the Axis were major under pop. My educated guess is we were close to 40% difference which means the capture time was sped up for Axis and in turn slower for Allies. Based on the chart below you most likely saw a 40% difference in Cap timers. 20% for Axis and 20% for Allies. 

                              Adjusted Axis        Adjusted Allied

1 > 225                       180                           270

2 > 205                       164                           246

3 > 180                       144                           172.8

4 > 160                       128                           192

5 > 135                      108                           162         

6 > 120                       96                            144

7 > 105

8 > 90

9 > 90

10 > 75

11 > 60

12 > 60

 

The balancing capture timers will remain the same as listed below:

 

Balancing Capture Timers (according to imbalance)

 

When there is an imbalance starting at 1% (up to 50%), the following will occur:

 

Underpopulated side receives bonus faster capture speed by X%

Overpopulated side receives penalty slower capture speed by X%

So for example, if there is a 25% population difference, the following will occur:

 

Underpopulated side = 25% faster capture timers

Overpopulated side = 25% slower capture timers

You cannot have more than a 50% bonus or penalty. So if there is a 70% imbalance, the maximum bonus or penalty is 50% timers impacted on both sides.

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/\

Would be good if that was ingame under the info tab as well as a sticky somewhere so people can know what they are rather than making assumptions.

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2 hours ago, aismov said:

I disagree. Ninja capping was and is the worst type of gameplay. There is nothing more awful than someone slipping through the back door due to the limitations set by the game itself. We should be promoting solid battles and not stealth mode. I however agree that capture timers should be looked at and the underpop side should have shorter capture timers compared to the overpop. Penalizing players with excessively long capture timers will decrease overall fun, but to some (reasonable) degree it is necessary. However, the most important thing to do is not just treat capture timers in isolation as they feed into other game mechanics.

For example one the reasons that capture timers are so long to begin with is because of how the FMS is set up. You can't go back to the old days of quick cap tables AND have FMS otherwise towns would be impossible to defend against. It works on a spectrum, you allow close mobile spawning to the action which means you need to have long capture timers, or you allow FB-spawning only in which case you can go back to insta-capture tables. But you can't mix FB-spawning only and long capture timers or FMS spawning with insta-cap tables; both are a recipe for disaster.

Fundamentally the question to ask from a game design perspective is what is the point of the timer in the first place? It is really to equalize the time it takes to attack an objective compared to the time it takes to defend an objective. That system need to take into account 1) spawn delay 2) time to travel from spawn point to target 3) time to capture target and 4) cooldown timer to recapture target 5) manpower imbalances making either attacking or defending difficult. Thats why if you are overpop your goal to prevent town/CP rolls, so you need to lengthen the timer in order to give the defender a chance to kill the overpop side that may have a CP stacked with troops.

And lets not forget that 1.36 will chance the dynamic completely as well since losing a single town will not be the utter disaster it can be now if the HC hasn't set fallback orders correctly, or if there is no HC on to respond to an enemy breakout.

Other than the very first few years of the game ninja capping has always been a lie. The enemy plants an AO telling right where the are going to attack.  There are timers that prevent a capture even after an AO is put down.  EWS tells you that enemies are present and gives you relative strength based on whether it’s full or partial. On top of that the game dynamics tell exactly which building the enemy is going for in the AOed towns. There are usually what? 2 AOs tops for the most part?  Barring major cities most towns have about 4 to 5 capturable CPs?  So most of the time you have to guard maybe 10 CPs, the vast majority of which are not spawnable which further reduces the critical CPs that must be watched.

At some point if a side is too lazy or stupid to guard the tiny bit of real estate that actually matters it no longer the fault of the game designers.  They can’t fix stupid and no amount of timers or other hard coded fixes will either. 

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Couldn't have said it better minky.

Timers way to long currently.

 

Also, need to check how the math really works.

With the 50% penalty invoked, it takes 1 under pop player 112 sec to capture, while taking 10 over pop players to capture, in exactly the same amount of time.....

 

The sliding scale is far more severe than it looks; even so, if the base capture time was reasonable, it might not be so bad.

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Agree with you 100% Minky. I think as it stands it is very easy to defend a spawn. But looking to the future with 1.36 and likely/hopefully proximity AOs the last thing we need is a return to the mole fest of old. It was nothing but tedium and frustration tracking down the one guy hiding in the attic and solo capping CPs.

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15 hours ago, Silky said:

I dream of a day when the contested-to-ABs-hot 10 minute timer is finally seen as the timer to really reflect population imbalance 

 

until then, I’ll just sip my tea 

Because the general mood will be oh so jovial when one has to guess how long after contest the bunker/docks will be hot....

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2 hours ago, B2K said:

Because the general mood will be oh so jovial when one has to guess how long after contest the bunker/docks will be hot....

:lol:
Aye mate, how long til bunker's hot?

/me pulls out slide rule

... well, if we factor in the % of players in world, divided by the number on mission, multiplied by the mean airspeed of a laden swallow
multiplied by the square root of the drag coefficient of an electron in an ethernet cable, then subtra........

Hey? Where you going....

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We have had discussions about reducing AB timers for Underpop side. There would be no change for Over pop. Think of similar to Capture timer.

So standard time is city needs to be contested 10 min for bunker to be hot.

Lets apply the same logic above from CP to the AB timer (but only for underpop) so if you are OP your timer is still 10 min. but if you are under pop it would be a max benifit of 50% so 5 min. This helps give the UP side a fighting chance to attack and not just defend. This is still just brainstorming and in discussion phase. Nothing concrete or even planned.

 

@delems Cap timers are always being evaluated we feel they are in the sweet spot for the moment as we test other things for 1.36 (TOE supply). I have no doubt we will re-evaluate timers once 1.36 is live. I think you once said we shouldnt change too many variables at once, otherwise we skew the actual results. The 1 min cap timer is way too fast for an actual map, in the future maybe we do Intermission with those fast timers, and call it an intermission campaign. The thought behind the timers, is even with town supply population alone can dictate a win. So if one side is way OP the majority of the time, they can pocket large sections and envelop the map. Cuts can still happen in 1.36, they will be more difficult but possible. Also remember with 1.36 we are going to a min of 2 AOs at all times and will be looking at adjusting the threshholds for more AOs as the softcap will be removed.

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1 hour ago, BLKHWK8 said:

Also remember with 1.36 we are going to a min of 2 AOs at all times ... as the softcap will be removed.

This is really fantastic.

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It was taking 1 player 6 mins to Cap a CP when over popped last week. If the penalty is just +50% that makes the base cap timer 4 mins in balanced time. Is that right, normal balanced cap timer is a full 4 mins? I thought it was meant to be 2 mins.

 

S! Ian

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7 hours ago, B2K said:

Because the general mood will be oh so jovial when one has to guess how long after contest the bunker/docks will be hot....

the hugely overpopped side will have to take underpop DOs seriously. That’s exactly what doesn’t happen now 

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13 minutes ago, Silky said:

the hugely overpopped side will have to take underpop DOs seriously. That’s exactly what doesn’t happen now 

I agree, but B2K is right, a floating variable time is going to be a nightmare for both attackers and defenders. If we all know that the Underpop side has "hot tables" in 5 mins and a hot AB in 5 mins, then the OP side will indeed have to take their DOs seriously and divert troops from their AOs to defend promptly or risk losing towns in 15mins.

Personally I always thought a seriously under pop side should always have been given an extra AO to draw off some of the OP attackers - I know it couldnt/wouldnt work all the time but it would be another part of countering OP imho.

 

S! ian

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48 minutes ago, ian77 said:

I agree, but B2K is right, a floating variable time is going to be a nightmare for both attackers and defenders. If we all know that the Underpop side has "hot tables" in 5 mins and a hot AB in 5 mins, then the OP side will indeed have to take their DOs seriously and divert troops from their AOs to defend promptly or risk losing towns in 15mins.

Personally I always thought a seriously under pop side should always have been given an extra AO to draw off some of the OP attackers - I know it couldnt/wouldnt work all the time but it would be another part of countering OP imho.

 

S! ian

Extra AO wouldn’t really solve the issue, though it does sound good. Attacking when underpop always seems to follow the same pattern, threatening the AB is the best way for it to both 1) pull numbers to defend , and also 2) give the atta jets a realistic, achievable objective 

 

 

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