malvoc

cap timers

45 posts in this topic

6 hours ago, Merlin51 said:

:lol:
Aye mate, how long til bunker's hot?

/me pulls out slide rule

... well, if we factor in the % of players in world, divided by the number on mission, multiplied by the mean airspeed of a laden swallow
multiplied by the square root of the drag coefficient of an electron in an ethernet cable, then subtra........

Hey? Where you going....

+1 for Slide Rule joke.

+2 for not saying 'Abacus'.

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5 hours ago, BLKHWK8 said:

We have had discussions about reducing AB timers for Underpop side. There would be no change for Over pop. Think of similar to Capture timer.

So standard time is city needs to be contested 10 min for bunker to be hot.

Lets apply the same logic above from CP to the AB timer (but only for underpop) so if you are OP your timer is still 10 min. but if you are under pop it would be a max benifit of 50% so 5 min. This helps give the UP side a fighting chance to attack and not just defend. This is still just brainstorming and in discussion phase. Nothing concrete or even planned.

This I like.  Less for UP. 

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I agree that we need to have a fixed cap time floor and work down for there. I think it's not unreasonable to have 10 minutes for evenpop, and 5 minutes AB hot tables for the underpop side. That way everyone can reasonbly plan their attack/defense and be able to have an expectation of what happens when.

Hard-coded uncertainty is the #1 enemy of game design IMHO. Followed as close #2 with unnecessary complexity. 

KISS... 10 minutes normal and 5 for underpop. Everyone expects it, everyone understands it's, and most important of all its transparent for all players to see.

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10 hours ago, ian77 said:

It was taking 1 player 6 mins to Cap a CP when over popped last week. If the penalty is just +50% that makes the base cap timer 4 mins in balanced time. Is that right, normal balanced cap timer is a full 4 mins? I thought it was meant to be 2 mins.

 

S! Ian

Even pop 1 person in a CP takes 225 seconds as my post above. That is 3.75 min. That is the correct time, we encourage team game play to get more people on single CPs. We realize that it is much harder for 1 person to cap a CP than 5 and that is the very intention of the timer, you want to cap it faster get in their with your team squad or otherwise. The more people in there makes it faster and easier to hold off defenders.

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7 minutes ago, aismov said:

I agree that we need to have a fixed cap time floor and work down for there. I think it's not unreasonable to have 10 minutes for evenpop, and 5 minutes AB hot tables for the underpop side. That way everyone can reasonbly plan their attack/defense and be able to have an expectation of what happens when.

Hard-coded uncertainty is the #1 enemy of game design IMHO. Followed as close #2 with unnecessary complexity. 

KISS... 10 minutes normal and 5 for underpop. Everyone expects it, everyone understands it's, and most important of all its transparent for all players to see.

I agree in keeping it simple, the question becomes what is considered Over Pop and Underpop. 1 player 1% of playerbase? What it is now and I need to double check is the SD and cap timers doesnt start until I think a 5% differential. Which I need to double check. Other wise you will see the timers flip flop as players in game world are killed. Lets say 20 players in a Para mission get shot down over target. Well that could be the diffrence between an OP timer and UP one. Which is why there is a sliding scale. All which can be tweeked 

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Did you read my post??   1 axis guys was capping flag in under 1 min and it was taking us almost 6 min with only a 6 sec spawn delay??? and we had 5-6 guys in the flag  if that's right your scale is stupid.....

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yeah I agree that's unsmart, you're drastically changing point capture because balance is off even though there' already a spawn delay. That's trying too hard, two wrongs don't make a right.

Edited by knucks

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What about applying the AB approach to CP timers @B2K?  Rather than penalizing the OP for being OP, just give a bonus to the UP side instead.  Carrot, not stick, right?

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At one point towards the end of the campaign, I capped a cp by myself so quick that I even commented in game "Allies must be way, way op".

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47 minutes ago, malvoc said:

Did you read my post??   1 axis guys was capping flag in under 1 min and it was taking us almost 6 min with only a 6 sec spawn delay??? and we had 5-6 guys in the flag  if that's right your scale is stupid.....

I will.pose the question back, are you 100% sure there was only 1 axis capper, did you actually time the captures using .time? 

I have gone in and tested the timers several times this last map. I'm not staying you are wrong but sometimes in the heat of battle our  perception of time can be skewed.

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2 hours ago, BLKHWK8 said:

I will.pose the question back, are you 100% sure there was only 1 axis capper, did you actually time the captures using .time? 

I have gone in and tested the timers several times this last map. I'm not staying you are wrong but sometimes in the heat of battle our  perception of time can be skewed.

Agree. When you are used to capping at a certain speed anything shorter will appear lightning fast.

And for defenders it always seems like the enemy is capping uber fast. Try to stand in a CP offline and then despawn to simulate being killed. Start the timer and see how long it takes you to despawn and get back into the CP... You will be very surprised.

Now imagine the more common scenario where you spawn somewhere else and have to run the ~150m to the CP building. Suddenly those seconds really start to add up and what seems like "under a minute" to you is closer to several minutes in reality. 

 

EDIT: did the above just as example

Adjacent CP: 38 sec (+6 sec if spawned on first floor)

Distant CP (200m): 65 sec

And that is doing a full sprint dash without stopping for anything straight for the CP. Factor in you may pause to see if EI nearby and suddenly the seconds add up.

Edited by aismov

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6 hours ago, Capco said:

What about applying the AB approach to CP timers @B2K?  Rather than penalizing the OP for being OP, just give a bonus to the UP side instead.  Carrot, not stick, right?

Thats what i meant that OP would not go longer, just UP decreasing.

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17 hours ago, BLKHWK8 said:

Even pop 1 person in a CP takes 225 seconds as my post above. That is 3.75 min. That is the correct time, we encourage team game play to get more people on single CPs. We realize that it is much harder for 1 person to cap a CP than 5 and that is the very intention of the timer, you want to cap it faster get in their with your team squad or otherwise. The more people in there makes it faster and easier to hold off defenders.

Thanks Blkhwk8 for confirming perfect balanced CAP timer is 225 seconds, so 1 guy capping in heavy heavy over pop should (and does) take roughly 6mins to cap a CP by himself.

Yes we know it is best to cap as a team and speed the cap timers up, but 8 over pop players in a CP still do not cap as fast as 1 under pop player. 8 players in 8 separate CPs cap those 8 CPs significantly faster than a team of 8 going from one CP to another, initially capping them and then having to recap them, as they drive around town on an endless mole hunt trying to snuff out the one or two under pop moles who recap in a fraction of the time. This discourages team play. This reinforces lonewolf play, cap a CP and then guard it and hope you win the 50/50 lag kill/death when the lone ei runs in. Just sit and stare at the map and watch your 8 unmoving team mates sitting in their 8 CPs waiting, and waiting. If you think cap timers feel longer when you are capping, try just sitting endlessly in a factory CP waiting for a big city to fall when you are heavy over pop! In a big city having 20 paying players sitting for what feels like hours on there own in factory CPs and a few depots scattered all across a huge town is not FUN. I suppose it is a form of teamwork, but not the team play that many of us seek from WWIIOL - clearly there are masochistic members of our diverse community that love bunker duty, but judging by the number of spawnables and ABs that fall without being guarded they are an ever shrinking group! :) 

 

Capturing big cities really is turning into "grinding" for the vets willing to give up their own paid for fun to sit in a CP, bored rigid, for well over an hour while others "play" - only to see everything undone because 1 guard was AFK for a minute and the underpop side recapped the until that moment seemingly guarded CP.

 

Quicker for UP and slower for OP is a double punishment, on top of the gameplay punishment of having to sit in a CP for hours.

 

S! ian

Edited by ian77
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You raise a valid point in very large cities. The paradigm needs to be adjusted for those. Whether it is breaking them up like Antwerp/Bruss or a completely new dynamic such as deployable ZOCs via the FMS that need to be taken down before a CP is capped. But it's a huge pain for both attackers and defenders.

 

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A huge pain is having to go inside a tiny building to capture, why is that? Seems out of place for a game of this scale. Why not capture from around the bulding, like area of control?

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It should not take 6 min for a single person to cap a cp under any population balance circumstance. That is just too long. I would dial it back a bit, maybe 4 min is worth a try.

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5 hours ago, knucks said:

A huge pain is having to go inside a tiny building to capture, why is that? Seems out of place for a game of this scale. Why not capture from around the bulding, like area of control?

AOC has been discussed, but for massive cities you need equally massive numbers of players to make it work.

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Here is the thought behind the capture timers, no one like the spawn delay and when we first introduced the variable timer you also had 30 SD, we tried to remove the SD completely but found people wanted it back in some form as a means of intel for population balance, hence the 10SD max. 

This goes into population balance, rather than force players to spawn the Under populated side, it is a choice. We dont want the population size to dictate who wins the map, but rather gameplay (and yes we realize population does have effect on who wins the map) We want to be as close to equal side population as possible, so there are players that when they jump on use to say hell i just wont play since we cant defend being outnumbered. That was with 30SD on the other side, which made it even worse. So with this system when a side gets too unbalanced this system tries to balance it out to give the underpopulated side a chance to at least defend.

As far as the point of the 6 min cap, this is true, but remember you have several more players in the actual game that can either defend CPs taken, overwhelm the defense etc. Its adjusting the gameplay based on the population. 

 

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On 1/12/2019 at 9:51 PM, BLKHWK8 said:

 

@delems Cap timers are always being evaluated we feel they are in the sweet spot for the moment as we test other things for 1.36 (TOE supply). I have no doubt we will re-evaluate timers once 1.36 is live. I think you once said we shouldnt change too many variables at once, otherwise we skew the actual results. The 1 min cap timer is way too fast for an actual map, in the future maybe we do Intermission with those fast timers, and call it an intermission campaign. The thought behind the timers, is even with town supply population alone can dictate a win. So if one side is way OP the majority of the time, they can pocket large sections and envelop the map. Cuts can still happen in 1.36, they will be more difficult but possible. Also remember with 1.36 we are going to a min of 2 AOs at all times and will be looking at adjusting the threshholds for more AOs as the softcap will be removed.

With minimum 2 AOs going to need more juice for the underpop, either increase percentage limits of delay or disable enemy being able to blow active AO FBs.

 

Oh and SD, how is that being calced?

Edited by Kilemall

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I think it may be time to bring out the F2P as a auto pop balancer idea again. We discussed it in another thread on the game ideas forum.

http://forums.wwiionline.com/forums/topic/420905-monetizing-f2p-auto-side-balancing-spawn-delayside-delay-and-ads/

 

Short version: open F2P to have access to ALL weapons, but they have to wait in line to spawn overpop side or can choose to immediately spawn underpop

Long version: F2P would essentially be the auto-balancer where the F2P players on login would see two options (assuming one side is over-populated). They can wait for countdown timer or queue (similar to Planetside 2) to join their preferred side, or they can immediately spawn into the underpopulated side. And in game, F2P would be subject to spawn delay as well as it currently stands. Subscribers would not have either or these limitations and be able to "jump the line" so to say.

This way if the side population deviates say from +/- 10% of absolute balance (50%/50%), this mechanism would kick in. Since subscribers can always spawn into their chosen side like we can now, there is still a chance that one side will be overpopulated... hence continuation of the spawn delay timers. At both the side-selection screen as well as the spawn-in screen you can have a little blurb that reminds F2P players that they can avoid both of these issues if they become a subscriber.

 

EDIT: this would necessitate that ranks tank longer to acquire as well to make the F2P thing work.

Edited by aismov
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